Government Quietly Approves Enormous Oil Pipeline

[Zorba]

I am really surprised they aren't adding an NG pipeline up there too. They burn off so much NG up there that it looks like a huge metro area from space. I don't believe there are any NG pipelines to the ND fields and it can't be transported by train economically.

This. So much this.
"Lets use gravity to move oil... instead of burning even more fossil fuels to move oil. "
(Whining and gnashing of teeth... then onto the next protest about not burning so much fossil fuel and saaaaaaaaaaaave the planet!)

Its just fashionable to protest anything to do with oil and energy these days, even when it's the best solution short of teleportation.

I am pro-pipeline, but pipe lines don't use gravity to move oil, they use pumps, big ass pumps. NG pipelines use huge compressors. I am not sure of the energy ratio between train and pipeline, I am sure pipeline comes out ahead, but it isn't free.

 

[MrSquished]

I am really surprised they aren't adding an NG pipeline up there too. They burn off so much NG up there that it looks like a huge metro area from space. I don't believe there are any NG pipelines to the ND fields and it can't be transported by train economically.



I am pro-pipeline, but pipe lines don't use gravity to move oil, they use pumps, big ass pumps. NG pipelines use huge compressors. I am not sure of the energy ratio between train and pipeline, I am sure pipeline comes out ahead, but it isn't free.

shhhhhhh. you mean just cause it's moving North to South and that looks like it's all downhill all the way it's not just using gravity?

 

[herm0016]

I am really surprised they aren't adding an NG pipeline up there too. They burn off so much NG up there that it looks like a huge metro area from space. I don't believe there are any NG pipelines to the ND fields and it can't be transported by train economically.



I am pro-pipeline, but pipe lines don't use gravity to move oil, they use pumps, big ass pumps. NG pipelines use huge compressors. I am not sure of the energy ratio between train and pipeline, I am sure pipeline comes out ahead, but it isn't free.

That has for the most part been solved. There are much tougher laws regarding flaring than there were 10 years ago and a lot more infrastructure.

 

[IronWing]

shhhhhhh. you mean just cause it's moving North to South and that looks like it's all downhill all the way it's not just using gravity?

In this case, it pretty much is downhill all the way.

 

[feralkid]

"Lets use gravity to move oil...

Say what?

There be hills and valleys.

Do you think this will be like a Roman Aquaduct?

 

[Zaap]

I am really surprised they aren't adding an NG pipeline up there too. They burn off so much NG up there that it looks like a huge metro area from space. I don't believe there are any NG pipelines to the ND fields and it can't be transported by train economically.



I am pro-pipeline, but pipe lines don't use gravity to move oil, they use pumps, big ass pumps. NG pipelines use huge compressors. I am not sure of the energy ratio between train and pipeline, I am sure pipeline comes out ahead, but it isn't free.

You're right of course, I didn't mean litterally the entire way. I'm sure it's logical though that a pipeline is going to exploit gravity as much as possible though, I doubt engineers would pick a route that requires the most ineffecient pumping- like uphill as much as possible.

And from everything I've seen, pipelines are way more effecient than any other method of transporting large amounts of liquids over such a long distance.

 

[Zorba]

Shortest distance is likely the most important factor, as far as power goes. Frictional loss increase proportional to distance all other things being equal. Meanwhile all of the energy imparted on the fluid uphill is recovered when it goes back down it, so basically from a gravity point of view all that matters is the starting and ending elevation. But crude oil is very viscous so frictional losses will have much more of an impact than slight changes in elevation. Also they can change the direction of flow in major pipelines.

 

[Zaap]

Say what?

There be hills and valleys.

Do you think this will be like a Roman Aquaduct?

I don't know that much about the oil pipelines, but I fail to see why any pipeline would be built ignoring the same principals the Romans figured out to add to a pipeline's effeciency. The grade in an aquaduct is extremely slight. Also, with proper engineering and exploiting hydrolics and it's pretty amazing how hills are easily overcome. I saw a documentary once on pipeline technlogy and how with the most incremental downslope in a pipe, you can overcome a hill that's much higher than the downgrade you're exploiting, using nothing but gravity.

I'd be surprised if the same engineering tricks weren't used to make oil pipelines more efficient (ie: yes you're using generated pressure, but obviously you'd want to use the least amount of it and get the most effeciency)- and that's pretty much the point I was making. They are very efficent.

People who claim to care about the enviroment should be happy that such an effecient method is used, rather than protest it, in effort that would make a less effecient means the default.

 

[compuwiz1]

I think the Keystone is still going to be completed, after Obama leaves office. That's just the way it is. Money is power and there are financial interests who will make sure it goes live, by hook or by crook. And don't forget, Clinton loves money. She'll make it happen for her cronies.

 

[IGBT]

Millions of miles of every imaginable type of pipe lines in the US / World and they want to cry and complain about THAT pipe line..and completely ignore the pipe lines i.e. nat gas / water / sewer / electrical going to all the protesters homes.

 

[shortylickens]

I heard, but not from the News. From John Oliver.
Which is kinda sad.

 

[K1052]

I think the Keystone is still going to be completed, after Obama leaves office. That's just the way it is. Money is power and there are financial interests who will make sure it goes live, by hook or by crook. And don't forget, Clinton loves money. She'll make it happen for her cronies.

Nobody in the US has much financial interest in favor of the project, it's been tainted by years of bitter controversy, and TransCanada is suing the US for $15B in damages under NATFA (very unlikely to prevail). This project is dead and everybody knows it which is why TC is trying to figure out a way to pipeline diluted bitumen to the east coast and tanker it down to the gulf. Now faced with an unfavorable administration in power in Canada even that plan is unlikely to succeed (let alone their more ambitious plans to pipe to west to the pacific coast).

Of course Trump is in favor of it.

 

[dainthomas]

Pipelines >>>>>>>>>>>> trains.

There really needs to be zero debate on these things. I don't understand how anyone could possibly oppose a pipeline given the alternative.

Exactly. Those Bakken oil trains are basically rolling bombs.

In the latest incident an Oregon town barely avoided being burned to the ground.

http://www.usnews.com/news/business...ts-return-home-following-oil-train-derailment

 

[piasabird]

The paradox is while pipeline delivery is very safe, it has the greatest potential to spill the most oil or other substance. That photo I put up is a new processing facility that was built to process dirtier oil like what we get from Canada. I knew the manager that managed to get it built even despite the EPA. Whenever, I look at this as I drive by I imagine it looks like Mt Doom from lord of the rings with its all seeing eye.

 

[Genx87]

Looking towards the future the goal is to reduce fossil fuels from our diet and thus reduce CO2 emissions. The alternative is actually that , alliterative. For me its obvious but I have a different mindset than you, I don't understand how anyone could possibly oppose Alternative.

So your idea is to force crude onto unsafe trains and dump hundreds of thousands of this stuff around the environment to satisfy your crusade against fossil fuels? We will get off Fossil fuels at some point when the alternatives dont cost so much more compared to them.

 

[Thebobo]

So your idea is to force crude onto unsafe trains and dump hundreds of thousands of this stuff around the environment to satisfy your crusade against fossil fuels? We will get off Fossil fuels at some point when the alternatives dont cost so much more compared to them.

Lol crusade? Just having a discussion here.

Yep my ideas is to force crude on trains hopping every single lined tank derails and explodes in towns all over killing thousands and causing millions in property damage. /smack Maybe if they had used double lined tank trains improved maintenance on tracks and limited speed on older track or through towns. Which they are doing now.

Seriously, the idea (not just mine) is to leave much of it in the ground. Thus we wont need as much new infrastructure. Wind and Solar are price competitive now. But we still need to put more resources into renewable projects, research and development. The way we were heading before Reagan got into office. Imagine where we would be now if Ronald Reagan would of kept the Solar tax break and not eliminated other renewable programs. I understand this is not going to happen over night but our political leaders needs to pick the pace up with tax incentives and the like. We are way behind several smaller countries heck Nicaragua is ranked higher on moving towards renewable. See below.

How 11 Countries Are Leading The Shift To Renewable Energy

You can google to see how Wind and Solar are price becoming competitive now

 

[Genx87]

Lol crusade? Just having a discussion here.

Yep my ideas is to force crude on trains hopping every single lined tank derails and explodes in towns all over killing thousands and causing millions in property damage. /smack Maybe if they had used double lined tank trains improved maintenance on tracks and limited speed on older track or through towns. Which they are doing now.

Seriously, the idea (not just mine) is to leave much of it in the ground. Thus we wont need as much new infrastructure. Wind and Solar are price competitive now. But we still need to put more resources into renewable projects, research and development. The way we were heading before Reagan got into office. Imagine where we would be now if Ronald Reagan would of kept the Solar tax break and not eliminated other renewable programs. I understand this is not going to happen over night but our political leaders needs to pick the pace up with tax incentives and the like. We are way behind several smaller countries heck Nicaragua is ranked higher on moving towards renewable. See below.

How 11 Countries Are Leading The Shift To Renewable Energy

You can google to see how Wind and Solar are price becoming competitive now

Oil isnt staying in the ground. Opposing pipelines under the guise it will somehow curtail our fossil fuel consumption will force oil onto trains. Trains that have derailed spilling hundreds of thousands of barrels and burning towns down and killing people.

I dont have time to read your link. But my guess win and solar are becoming price competitive via subsidy. That just hides the cost to the end user.

I support renewable energy sources. My idea is eventually everything will be solar if we cant create our own fusion reactors. But I am also somebody who understands we can't saddle avg people with large increases in energy costs over short periods of time to get there. We will get there but it will take decades. It may not even happen in the 21st century as more oil production comes online. But eventually fossil fuels will cost too much to extract.

 

[Thebobo]

I'm ok with this one since they're moving crude instead of an abrasive tar sand.

Besides, oil-men love them some pipe.

This is heavy tar sand crude, probably the same as your abrasive tar sand

 

[OutHouse]

Millions of miles of every imaginable type of pipe lines in the US / World and they want to cry and complain about THAT pipe line..and completely ignore the pipe lines i.e. nat gas / water / sewer / electrical going to all the protesters homes.

yup

 

[werepossum]

I don't have a horse in the race other than Kinder Morgan wants to run one through the middle of my in law's farm. And...
Kinder Morgan already has had a substantial spill from existing operations in Anderson County near the Belton site.
300K gallons of gas.

Who is one of the largest owners/investors of trains?

The other thing is that there should be a permanent clean up fund for the pipeline. There was a story about an old line that started leaking but the company was defunked. Google is failing me atm. If it wasn't for a clean up fund, the current land owners would have been on the hook.

This, exactly. The government should work out worst case costs and bond or insurance policies to that amount should be posted in escrow. This SHOULD be a normal cost of doing business, for pipelines, hog farms, and similar potentially catastrophic enterprises.

 

[Franz316]

Another question is whether or not the Bakken field has already peaked..

 

[Kazukian]

Or maybe it's a bad idea to have an oil line that goes directly through the fresh water supplies for Native American communities? But eh, they're injuns. Americans never were too happy with the existence of the Natives.

They get their water from wells, and the pipeline doesn't cross any reservation land.

I'm from ND, my hometown is Bismarck. The protests are BS.

Our country runs on oil, and this pipeline will have a hell of a lot less environmental impact than the coal strip mining. Hopefully, we'll transition to renewable energy and these pipelines won't be needed, but for now, they make sense.

 

[MajinCry]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakken_pipeline

Besides the Iowa Utilities Board, the pipeline needed to be approved by the Iowa Department of Natural Resources (DNR)[19] to obtain local-impact permits for air quality, water discharge, stormwater, flood plain and sovereign lands, as the pipeline runs through state parks or public lakes.[5] The Army Corps of Engineers needed to issue a permit, because the pipeline routes through watersheds, and the Corps was not expected to block the project.[20]

Alas, there is no proof from either side citing who owns the land. However, where there's smoke, there's fire; the Native Americans are being savaged by security and police, for protesting the pipeline. They're being treated like we were in the 1800s; not the behavior you'd expect for a perfectly legit project.

Besides, when the pipeline leaks into the rivers, guess where that ends up? Ya guessed it, the water for the Native American communities. Most wells aren't plunged into self-contained bodies of water, after all.


Edit: I will add, that if you cannot create a facility/institution/what have you, without acting like a bunch of nightmarish, authoritarian savages in suits, whatever was being made shouldn't be made in the first place. Unless of course you think it's acceptable to brutalize red people that are in the way, then you might think it's a green-light endeavour.

 

[Kazukian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakken_pipeline



Alas, there is no proof from either side citing who owns the land. However, where there's smoke, there's fire; the Native Americans are being savaged by security and police, for protesting the pipeline. They're being treated like we were in the 1800s; not the behavior you'd expect for a perfectly legit project.

Besides, when the pipeline leaks into the rivers, guess where that ends up? Ya guessed it, the water for the Native American communities. Most wells aren't plunged into self-contained bodies of water, after all.

Every square inch of land in ND is titled and owned. It's all BS.

My daughter is 1/8 indigenous, my college room mate was 1/2. I grew up with them, and my mother worked for one of the reservations for a decade. Don't blabber platitudes, most of the people protesting don't even have HS diplomas, unless you have insight from growing up on the res, perhaps you can find another cause.

 

[Jhhnn]

This is heavy tar sand crude, probably the same as your abrasive tar sand

Negative. Bakken is classified as a light sweet crude oil-

https://www.ndoil.org/image/cache/Bakken_Quality_Report.pdf