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Gov. Walker and WI's master plan

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JeepinEd said:
Following your logic, California's school system, with one of the strongest teachers union in the country, should be at the top. (It's 49 out of 50).
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oh please. Even I enjoy bashing on California now and then, but seriously, 49/50 in education? Anyone would have to be delusional to believe that. California has one of the best state university systems in the country, if not the best. Where are the enrolled students coming from? Other states?
 
DrPizza said:
oh please. Even I enjoy bashing on California now and then, but seriously, 49/50 in education? Anyone would have to be delusional to believe that. California has one of the best state university systems in the country, if not the best. Where are the enrolled students coming from? Other states?
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Do you consider Mexico to be a State?
 
Doc Savage Fan said:
Please provide the link to your data...I have a feeling that this will help us understand where you're coming from.
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He's coming from the vantage of membership in one of the most powerful, corrupt special interest groups in this country. Teachers' unions care about teachers first, and everything else is a distant second. There is nothing wrong with wanting fair recompense for your work. But the absurdity of mewling that unions make better educators and claiming that cutting their benefits which are out of line with economic realities will negatively affect kids' futures is so manipulative and exploitative it is morally wrong.
 
BlahBlahYouToo said:
i don't need to see stats that can easily be skewed by the "researcher" who wants to push his point across.

this is how many teachers who are part of a union operate.
work your ass off the first few years, get enough of your kids to pass, get tenure by your 3rd year, coast the next 25 years on your way to a sweet pension with benefits.

it's all about tenure and seniority which is bullshit.
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Haha, 'I don't need to see statistics, I know what I know!'

You realize how ridiculous that sounds, right?
 
Doc Savage Fan said:
BTW...I thought we were talking about the "correlation" between teachers unions and quality of education....no?

Please provide the link to your data...I have a feeling that this will help us understand where you're coming from.
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You know, I would waste my time to look back through my history to find the page that I found those statistics on, but the last part of your statement "will help us understand where you're coming from" implies that you feel there is some bias in the source.

I'm questioning your logical reasoning skills. There's bias in determining which states have teachers unions? Google it yourself and decide which source you want to use. If I recall correctly, Louisianna may have one district with a union; can we count the rest of the state though?

Or are you implying that there a bias in averaging the rankings of the NAEP test scores? Here are the scores - average them yourself.
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/RR345.pdf

It's not opinion, it's not biased. It's simple, easy to look it up yourself fact.
 
DrPizza said:
You know, I would waste my time to look back through my history to find the page that I found those statistics on, but the last part of your statement "will help us understand where you're coming from" implies that you feel there is some bias in the source.
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I've done a lot of reading on this subject over the years and don't recall ever seeing teacher's unions being cited as a major predictor of educational quality. So yes...I suspect bias.

DrPizza said:
I'm questioning your logical reasoning skills. There's bias in determining which states have teachers unions? Google it yourself and decide which source you want to use. If I recall correctly, Louisianna may have one district with a union; can we count the rest of the state though?
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...and I'm questioning your logical reasoning skills.

DrPizza said:
Or are you implying that there a bias in averaging the rankings of the NAEP test scores? Here are the scores - average them yourself.
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/RR345.pdf

It's not opinion, it's not biased. It's simple, easy to look it up yourself fact.
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I'll check it out later...don't have time right now.
 
CitizenKain said:
Facts are scary!
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Yes "facts" like this are scary too!

gw-us-debt-co2-temp.jpg


You can twist anything you want into something it isn't...just saying.
 
spidey07 said:
Tea Party Patriots indeed. It's being reported that Tea Party tracked them down. It of course happened after they got off work. That's why you don't see much counter protest, tax payers are busy WORKING.
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I read that there is a counter protest scheduled for Saturday, 'cuz, you know, the taxpayers actually work during the week.
 
JockoJohnson said:
What came first--the chicken or the egg? Did parents view the school system as a daycare service first or did the system "offer" it first? By that, I mean that the school system tries to cover everything -- breakfast, lunch, dinner, so many after school activities, etc. Most programs are good. The after school activities are a good thing but I think get abused as parents use it to occupy their kids until they are done work.

Like Red, I think it is the dual income households that kill it for any single family income or for those that one parent tries to stay at home. House prices ballooned once dual income homes became popular. Now things are so expensive, most families have to have both parents working. I know it is a choice but to keep up with everything, it is just tough to deal with one income.
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Which gets back to people making a 'living wage' and what mechanisms are available to them to guarantee a living wage.
 
Jaskalas said:
Entitlement society. Notice the debt and deficits? Notice that no one can do anything about it? These protests are exactly why. Attempts to reduce our government spending results in these 'violent' outbursts. That is our society.

It is quite doomed.
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I agree. Everyone seems to forget what kind of economy we are in. Its not just the teachers or just the fire fighters or the EMTs, all of us are suffering. Just because they are our teachers and life savers does not mean they are entitled to any kind of extra pay. Some of us have to work hard in this world to get what little we do.
 
DrPizza said:
You know, I would waste my time to look back through my history to find the page that I found those statistics on, but the last part of your statement "will help us understand where you're coming from" implies that you feel there is some bias in the source.

I'm questioning your logical reasoning skills. There's bias in determining which states have teachers unions? Google it yourself and decide which source you want to use. If I recall correctly, Louisianna may have one district with a union; can we count the rest of the state though?

Or are you implying that there a bias in averaging the rankings of the NAEP test scores? Here are the scores - average them yourself.
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/lrcpubs/RR345.pdf

It's not opinion, it's not biased. It's simple, easy to look it up yourself fact.
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According to this report, based on 2005 numbers CA ranks as follows:
Reading: 46
Math: 41
Science: 42

I'll try to find a newer study, which placed CA 48th overall in '09.

I fail to see a correlation between Unions and high achievement scores.
 
spidey07 said:
His platform was to do exactly this and The People elected him. He's simply doing the will of The People and saving the state. Tax Payers want this. So as democrats essentially said "sit down and shut up, the adults are in charge now"." Which is so very fitting considering the dems ran out of the state like children.

I really hope they keep this up, the more national attention this gets the more support it will get across other states.
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Answer his question, Spidey. Would you be thumping your chest if Obama passed healthcare in a week, before the repubs had a chance for all their townhall "plants" to raise a stink?

After all, Obama was elected by the "Will of The People" on the promise of a healthcare bill.

Your partisan slip is showing,,,😀
 
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Seru Wolf said:
I agree. Everyone seems to forget what kind of economy we are in. Its not just the teachers or just the fire fighters or the EMTs, all of us are suffering. Just because they are our teachers and life savers does not mean they are entitled to any kind of extra pay. Some of us have to work hard in this world to get what little we do.
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Well that's the thing. This bill has almost zero to do with pay other than guaranteeing they can still get raises based on cost of living. It's just asking them to pay for a tiny portion of their "free" benefits which are so astronomically good you'd be hard pressed to find any private job with them.

I think this is going to backfire big time on democrats.
 
Gigantopithecus said:
He's coming from the vantage of membership in one of the most powerful, corrupt special interest groups in this country. Teachers' unions care about teachers first, and everything else is a distant second. There is nothing wrong with wanting fair recompense for your work. But the absurdity of mewling that unions make better educators and claiming that cutting their benefits which are out of line with economic realities will negatively affect kids' futures is so manipulative and exploitative it is morally wrong.
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This matter would take far more time than I have this afternoon, however, so I'll make one last point before I'm outta here until tomorrow: unions help keep wages and benefits higher. I don't know how you can argue against higher wages attracting higher qualified candidates to the field. I go through the applications, college transcripts, exam scores, portfolios, etc. when we hire for my department. I can assure you that we attract candidates with "real" majors and very high college GPAs. The last time I helped participate in hiring for my department, I can assure you that the majority of applicants that I see had backgrounds that would allow them to earn more money in the private sector than in teaching - people with engineering degrees (and master's degrees which are absolutely required in NY). And, I'm not talking about people with 2.0's who were barely employable in their field - those applications don't even make it to my desk.

Myself, I'm fairly certain that I would have made far more money in the private sector. I majored in mathematics (not sit in a circle singing kumbaya types of courses as someone earlier in the thread suggested teachers take) - real mathematics. I've got a big wooden plaque and giant certificate that say that I was the number one student at my university (4.0 in applied mathematics, graduated Summa Cum Laude of course.)

As far as teacher's unions being "most powerful" - that's a joke. All of the unions (who fight for employees, by the way) put together were FAR outspent lobbying by corporate interests. As far as caring about teachers first? NY: teachers are now evaluated based on standardized test results of their students. (I forgot to point out that this is something the unions agreed to.) Members of our local union constantly fight for programs for our students - we constantly advocate for things that will improve student performance. Get rid of unions? - brilliant plan. There would be no one left to fight for the students in that case.
 
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Spidey, Even if the will of "The People" don't want this bill passed? The majority of "The People", IIRC are against this passing.
 
JockoJohnson said:
What came first--the chicken or the egg? Did parents view the school system as a daycare service first or did the system "offer" it first? By that, I mean that the school system tries to cover everything -- breakfast, lunch, dinner, so many after school activities, etc. Most programs are good. The after school activities are a good thing but I think get abused as parents use it to occupy their kids until they are done work.
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Just looking at what I have seen between from when I went to school, and now my son, the schools function as a sitter came as a response to "less attentive" parents. There were always functions, and clubs after school, but the more in later years who's sole function was to keep kids after school. Do some schools actually have dinner? Wow.

Like Red, I think it is the dual income households that kill it for any single family income or for those that one parent tries to stay at home. House prices ballooned once dual income homes became popular. Now things are so expensive, most families have to have both parents working. I know it is a choice but to keep up with everything, it is just tough to deal with one income.
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It is tougher, but our son gets the full benefit, and it reflects in his school work. He is several grades ahead in reading and math, and loves going to school.
 
soundforbjt said:
Spidey, Even if the will of "The People" don't want this bill passed? The majority of "The People", IIRC are against this passing.
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What the hell are you talking about? It was his platform and he won in a landslide. The majority want this. It has to be done. Just because you see a bunch of obama and SEIU bussed in goons doesn't mean they represent the tax payers who are too busy working to pay for these deadbeats not showing up to work.

And now that Obama is coming out in support of the unions, who have the lowest approval ratings ever and are in steady decline, it only makes him look worse. This is a losing gambit for democrats.
 
DrPizza said:
You know, I would waste my time to look back through my history to find the page that I found those statistics on, but the last part of your statement "will help us understand where you're coming from" implies that you feel there is some bias in the source.
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I believe I found your source, a blog by Matthew Di Carlo of the Albert Shanker Institute:
http://shankerblog.org/?p=895

It appears that you failed to read or failed to understand the end of the article where he stated:

<snip>
"If anything, it seems that the presence of teacher contracts in a state has a rather large, positive effect on achievement.

Now, some may object to this conclusion. They might argue that I can&#8217;t possibly say that teacher contracts alone caused the higher scores in these states. That there are dozens of other factors besides contracts that influence achievement, such as lack of resources, income, parents&#8217; education, and curriculum, and that these factors are at least partially responsible for the lower scores in the ten non-contract states.

My response: Exactly."

LOL. Are you being deliberatively deceptive or were you educated in a non-union State by any chance?
 
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