Gov. Walker and WI's master plan

[zsdersw]

Got it. All of this has nothing to do with being highly/over paid, but just being part of a union then.

Highly or overpaid? Who gets to make that determination?

 

[FallenHero]

Police, firefighters, and state troopers cost the state a good chunk of change too... their unions should be gutted like any other. I'm not entirely sure why they need unions in the first place. The state's interest in protecting public safety should automatically reward the best and most qualified and strengthen the employee side of the bargaining table by default.

<---Police Union Member

The problem with trusting in the powers that be (administration, elected officials) is that they do not always have the line officers interests at heart, nor are the best rewarded. I can't speak for FF, since thats not what I do, but police officers are subject to political will at an alarmingly high rate. We are also exempt from alot of labor law simply because of the function of our job. I cannot refuse an order to work on my day off, or a holiday, or overtime, or anything else. Hell, the only thing that prevents me from working more then 16 hours in a row is a department policy...which can be circumvented in an emergency. The union protects my days off and my holidays and creates rules that MUST be followed. If I refused an order, it better be illegal or I could theoretically be charged criminally. The state/village/city does not protect it's police and firemen like everyone thinks they do. If it were up to my village manager, I'd be working 16 hour days 7 days a week.

BTW, I contribute 10&#37; of my pay to my pension. I also am in a 457 (not matched), IRA-Roth and retirement VEBA Health savings account. I also am NOT eligible for Social Security. Does the pension system have flaws? Yes, it does. But try not to attack police unions or our pensions with such vigor without at least putting some research into it.

EDIT: I should add that if they do not already do so, the police and fire in WI should contribute to their plans. 5% is nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[zsdersw]

<---Police Union Member

The problem with trusting in the powers that be (administration, elected officials) is that they do not always have the line officers interests at heart, nor are the best rewarded. I can't speak for FF, since thats not what I do, but police officers are subject to political will at an alarmingly high rate. We are also exempt from alot of labor law simply because of the function of our job. I cannot refuse an order to work on my day off, or a holiday, or overtime, or anything else. Hell, the only thing that prevents me from working more then 16 hours in a row is a department policy...which can be circumvented in an emergency. The union protects my days off and my holidays and creates rules that MUST be followed. If I refused an order, it better be illegal or I could theoretically be charged criminally. The state/village/city does not protect it's police and firemen like everyone thinks they do. If it were up to my village manager, I'd be working 16 hour days 7 days a week.

BTW, I contribute 10&#37; of my pay to my pension. I also am in a 457 (not matched), IRA-Roth and retirement VEBA Health savings account. I also am NOT eligible for Social Security. Does the pension system have flaws? Yes, it does. But try not to attack police unions or our pensions with such vigor without at least putting some research into it.

I never doubted that being in the police union was different than being in another union, but that still doesn't mean that union is necessary. I'm not convinced of the necessity of any public sector unions.

 

[DrPizza]

Meh. Around here teachers don't show up or show up drunk multiple times and when they are fired the teachers union gets them reinstated.

There should be no due process with employment. You should be fired for any cause and any reason. Employment isnotan entitlement. Fuck up and you're fired. But unions enforce tenure for teaching a fewyears and you cannot fire them. Fuck teachers unions. Cancer on society they are.

Here's something odd, not sure if it's been brought up in the thread or not, why do states with teacher's unions rank higher educationally than the states without teacher's unions?

 

[her209]

Highly or overpaid? Who gets to make that determination?

Apparently only the people who think unionized teachers are highly or overpaid.

 

[zsdersw]

Apparently only the people who think unionized teachers are highly or overpaid.

School boards.. made up of ordinary citizens.. sign off on and have the ultimate say in all of it.

 

[her209]

School boards.. made up of ordinary citizens.. sign off on and have the ultimate say in all of it.

Who signs off on the agreements between each of the unions and the school districts?

 

[charrison]

Here's something odd, not sure if it's been brought up in the thread or not, why do states with teacher's unions rank higher educationally than the states without teacher's unions?

do they? link?

 

[Doppel]

This is merely the beginning. Government budgets are going to be fighting more and more from the local to the federal level. The pressures of spend and borrow will increase, not dissipate.

 

[charrison]

Apparently only the people who think unionized teachers are highly or overpaid.

Given that the govt cant pay for their services, I think is a pretty big clue. It appears the people do not want to be taxes anymore to pay for their services. Something has to give.

 

[boomerang]

Here's a compilation of the 14 "public servants" who ran from their jobs when the going got tough. Every one of them should be run out of office.

Any long termer's that have "served" long enough to draw a pension should have it stripped from them. Children run from their responsibilities. I present to you the Democrat class of the Wisconsin legislature, 2011! Bunch a pussies.

 

[zsdersw]

Who signs off on the agreements between each of the unions and the school districts?

Each district's school board.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Anyone here talking about education should watch "Waiting for Superman" immediately.

We need to eliminate the "blob" that soaks up most of the money between tax payers and students. We need to compensate teachers more. But their performance needs to be tested on a yearly basis. If their kids don't learn and don't pass, they get fired. Very simple.

 

[Red Dawn]

Anyone here talking about education should watch "Waiting for Superman" immediately.

We need to eliminate the "blob" that soaks up most of the money between tax payers and students. We need to compensate teachers more. But their performance needs to be tested on a yearly basis. If their kids don't learn and don't pass, they get fired. Very simple.

Well the only way to fairly test the ability of a teacher is to survey how the asian kids in their classes do because it seems the asian kids are the only ones whose parents are actually doing their parts in the process of their childrens education.

 

[zsdersw]

Anyone here talking about education should watch "Waiting for Superman" immediately.

We need to eliminate the "blob" that soaks up most of the money between tax payers and students. We need to compensate teachers more. But their performance needs to be tested on a yearly basis. If their kids don't learn and don't pass, they get fired. Very simple.

Working in education as I do (and have for most of my career), most of that I agree with. An equally big part of the problem, however, is parents and their abdication of their responsibilities that is far too rampant these days.

 

[matt0611]

Here's a compilation of the 14 "public servants" who ran from their jobs when the going got tough. Every one of them should be run out of office.

Any long termer's that have "served" long enough to draw a pension should have it stripped from them. Children run from their responsibilities. I present to you the Democrat class of the Wisconsin legislature, 2011! Bunch a pussies.

They love democracy, when they get their way.
Otherwise, fuck democracy, leave the state.
What a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

 

[trenchfoot]

Working in education as I do (and have for most of my career), most of that I agree with. An equally big part of the problem, however, is parents and their abdication of their responsibilities that is far too rampant these days.

Speaking as a person with many family members (cousins, 2nd cousins, aunts, uncles,) and friends who teach and get to hear them rail on about it all the time, I not only agree, I feel parents should play a bigger role than the teachers do in promoting and nurturing their education.

Essentially, parents must nurture in their children the motivation and willingness to excel and prosper in the educational experience. They must instill in their children how important it is to build a solid foundation toward building a successful future for themselves. The job of forming the right attitude and appreciation for acquiring a solid education has to come from the parents, no two ways about it. Teachers can only support and encourage the parent's/student's desire to do well in school.

Sure, some teachers have the ability to inspire their students to a higher level of learning, but that's not their primary function. That's not what they're primarily paid to do. It has to start from the home.

The teachers must have good raw material to start with. They shouldn't be wasting their time parenting their students.

For all that they have to put up with and are up against, and for the most important role they play in helping to build our children's futures, I feel that teachers are severely underpaid and woefully unappreciated. They deserve whatever they can get for themselves.

edit - The folks who complain much about the existence of teacher's unions should learn more about how difficult it is for teachers to provide for their students a good learning experience, especially when considering the lack of support they get from their administrators. It seems the only way they can get their concerns addressed is through the collective bargaining process.

 

[Jaskalas]

They love democracy, when they get their way.
Otherwise, fuck democracy, leave the state.
What a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

Aren't they committing a crime, as a violation of their public duty?

 

[Red Dawn]

Speaking as a person with many family members (cousins, 2nd cousins, aunts, uncles,) and friends who teach and get to hear them rail on about it all the time, I not only agree, I feel parents should play a bigger role than the teachers do in promoting and nurturing their education.

Essentially, parents must nurture in their children the motivation and willingness to excel and prosper in the educational experience. They must instill in their children how important it is to build a solid foundation toward building a successful future for themselves. The job of forming the right attitude and appreciation for acquiring a solid education has to come from the parents, no two ways about it. Teachers can only support and encourage the parent's/student's desire to do well in school.

Sure, some teachers have the ability to inspire their students to a higher level of learning, but that's not their primary function. That's not what they're primarily paid to do. It has to start from the home.

The teachers must have good raw material to begin with.

They are too busy working just so they can maintain the Middle Class lifestyle so they leave it to the teachers and when they don't get the results they blame the teachers instead of themselves.

 

[FDF12389]

Aren't they committing a crime, as a violation of their public duty?

Dereliction of duty only applies to military personal, I'm not sure if there are other laws politicians are bound by.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

They are too busy working just so they can maintain the Middle Class lifestyle so they leave it to the teachers and when they don't get the results they blame the teachers instead of themselves.

I'm not buying this one bit...do you have something that backs this up?

 

[Red Dawn]

I'm not buying this one bit...do you have something that backs this up?

Just anecdotal. Look how bad the American student has faired with the advent of two person working families. It seems the only students as a demographis that seem to be excelling as the Asians who have parents thaat are very involved with their education.

 

[Genx87]

Just anecdotal. Look how bad the American student has faired with the advent of two person working families. It seems the only students as a demographis that seem to be excelling as the Asians who have parents thaat are very involved with their education.

I think we are seeing way too many single parent households. Or parents who view the public school system as a baby sitting service.

 

[Red Dawn]

I think we are seeing way too many single parent households. Or parents who view the public school system as a baby sitting service.

Which intereferes with the teachers being able to do their job properly.

 

[Thump553]

Here's a compilation of the 14 "public servants" who ran from their jobs when the going got tough. Every one of them should be run out of office.

Any long termer's that have "served" long enough to draw a pension should have it stripped from them. Children run from their responsibilities. I present to you the Democrat class of the Wisconsin legislature, 2011! Bunch a pussies.

You do realize that the governor is trying to ram this bill through on the quick before the public realizes what is happening, don't you? The entire process from introduciton of the bill until when it was scheduled for final vote was slated to be one week until these senators pulled their quorum wrecking move to slow the process down.

Can you imagine if Obama rammed any of his major bills (stimulus, healthcare) through in a week the hysteria that would cause in teabag/GOP circles?