Gov. Walker and WI's master plan

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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We don't have any direct involvement in day-to-day operations, or budgeting, except in direct elections, like CA.

The "Owners", in the sense of who determines how much the "workers" get paid, are in the SAME situation as the workers, in that they are all public employees.

Same thing. You can't fight for money that doesn't exist. In a private company, if the company is spending more on labor than it is making in revenue... a union isn't going to have shit for leverage to demand more money... it doesn't exist. In the public sector, they simply demand more money ("profit") be created essentially, since we all know that government funds are unlimited. They can make demands without regard for where the money comes from... compounded with the fact that being public employees, their daily duties are usually more affective on organized society than those of private sector employees, so they have the leverage to demand more even if it doesn't exist.

An extreme example would be firefighter unions demanding 2x the pay or they will strike. If a private sector union did that, and refused to work, the company would most likely suffer financially, and could possibly go bankrupt. Do that with a firefighter's union, and houses burn down, government activities are screwed up, lots of taxpayer money is lost, and people die.

I'm in the military... do I have the **RIGHT** to organize my unit and demand more money for our labor? I think we're underpaid... so what's the problem with that? Same as anything else, right?

I'm not being uncivil, but I don't fault you for disagreeing. I'm on a pretty hot streak of winning arguments though, so watch out.

Wait, so is the government going bankrupt, or is government money unlimited? Strangely enough, I see states cutting salaries, furloughing employees, laying off people left and right. If they have unlimited money, why are they doing this? Why aren't these taxes being raised? Why haven't the teachers in the district where my mother works had any raise of any sort in almost five years?

Using the military is not a valid argument as it is a different job than literally every other one on the planet. Not only do you sign a contract when joining specifically waiving such rights (which these employees most certainly did not do), but any job where you may be executed for not showing up to work does not serve as a reasonable proxy for other jobs.

Exactly the sort of general public strike that you mention has happened in the past, and the government has been able to organize an effective response to it. That's part of the job of government, to be flexible to things like that. It's certainly easy (and ideologically convenient) to say that we should just remove the ability of people to unionize if they do public service is silliness.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
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Teachers aren't getting paid much at all. How much do they make a year? 22K? And you want to cut their pay?

Yesterday, 40% of the teachers in Madison county called in sick. That's not to mention the students that joined in the protests. Anyone supporting tax cuts for teachers are the people responsible for quality of education our next generation gets, which will be abysmal.

I don't see how students can get a quality education in this environment.

Where in the name of hell are you getting your estimate that the average teacher salary is 22k a year? LOL. More like 60k-70k total compensation. And they have to work about 40 days less a year than the rest of us schmos.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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Average salary for metro areas in WI is about $50k. That's good money for WI, especially once you add in the benefits.

In the rest of the state, I can assure you, the average teacher doesn't make $50k. In the district I work for, for example, the top of the scale is in the low 40's.. but you have to be with the district for more than 25 years, have a Masters degree, and a PGP (Professional Growth Plan) or PLP (Professional Learning Plan) reviewed yearly to get that.
 
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Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
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There are only two (the third, Green Bay/Fox Valley area, would be a stretch) metro areas that fit this average.. Madison and Milwaukee. In the rest of the state, I can assure you, teachers don't make $50k. In the district I work for, for example, the top of the scale is in the low 40's.. but you have to be with the district for more than 25 years, have a Masters degree, and a PGP (Professional Growth Plan) or PLP (Professional Learning Plan) reviewed yearly to get that.

La Crosse
Eau Claire
Tomah
etc... all have teachers making 50k +
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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In reality, they are paying taxes on money that was taxed from the private sector and given to them. So in reality, they don't add income tax dollars to the pot, they recycle it.

Only if you think that the people generating the tax dollars are all self taught. Infrastructure does not generate dollars directly, but is completely necessary for those dollars to be generated. Saying that people who contribute in that way do not add to the tax dollars is like saying that the HR department in a business doesn't contribute to profits. If that were the case, no business would have one.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
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Very well said.

I am regrettably a member of the TAA, the UW-Madison teaching assistants' union. I make $1,600/month plus full benefits and full tuition remission for working 6-15 hours/week. I am shocked at how so many of my TA colleagues are totally disconnected from reality. This type of job is essentially non-existent in the private sector.

Back in 2007/08 when I got here, I encouraged our union leaders to make reasonable concessions like pay freezes, small increases to healthcare withholding, etc. simply so we could get a contract signed - the economic writing on the wall was very clear back then. It was obvious the economy was going to get worse before it got better. Instead, they chose to pursue such issues as mandatory lactation rooms for breastfeeding mothers and same sex domestic partner benefits, and refused to agree to any minor decreases in our take home pay. Now, we're facing the loss of our union, pay cuts, benefit cuts, and most importantly, loss of tuition remission. Then again I shouldn't be too surprised at the union's lack of vision, given that most of our union leadership is in their late 30s and haven't managed to earn their PhD in 15+ years.

I am well aware of how fortunate I am to have this job. No one - no one - talks about sacrifice when we go out to drink. They're too busy using their $500 iPhones and $100/month data plans to facebook about how much they care about K-12 teachers (but sorry, they're too busy to actually engage in community outreach or teacher education). Quite frankly, even the graduate school is filled with deadweights who don't produce and parasitize UW. Maybe Walker will get rid of them.

Don't even get me started on teachers' unions...

When I was doing my undergrad CA, I was forced to join UAW to TA some classes. It would be a great day in America when these public employee unions are smashed into pieces so they can't rip taxpayers off anymore.

Not in a union in Texas while in grad school and proud of it.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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They should be able to mass protest anytime they want, just like any other unionized body. The district in question should just inform the union they won't be renewing any contracts with employees who clearly don't want to work.

Then the union folks will have all day, every day, to protest.

Win win for everyone.

Chuck

I promise you, the district in question does not have the freedom to do that.
 

Jadow

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2003
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ex my wife, 6 years and she has a masters. As do MOST of her coworkers since teachers are basically career students, they do get the masters degree (which is totally easy all of them gets As just for showing up).

The masters program is basically sitting around in a circle talking and circle jerking each other while singing kum bay ya. Then since it's an inside job, teachers grading other teachers, they all get A's for doing pretty much nothing.

Her school has about 20 teachers and 16 of them has masters.

They're OVER educated for teaching simple math, english, etc...
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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Hahaha... so $25k a year is now "overpaid"?

Wisconsin Teacher Salary
Starting Salary: $25,222
Average Salary: $46,390

That and only 30% of education funds even make it to teachers. So not sure what "big" savings they expect. Seems this is a poltical stunt at best, and excluding police and firefighters I think proves that.


http://teacherportal.com/salary/Wisconsin-teacher-salary

This is purely a political stunt, Police & Firefighters endorsed Walker and he's paying them back by not including them. He's punishing the Teachers for supporting the Democrat.
 
Jul 10, 2007
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And to get to 50k you need higher education and/or many years of service.

Starting pay is in the 25k area.

so work elsewhere if the pay is too low.
how can anyone ask for a raise when the state is bankrupt, let alone an entire workforce?

would anyone ask for a raise when their company is deep in the red?
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
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It would be a great day in America when these public employee unions are smashed into pieces so they can't rip taxpayers off anymore.

It would be a great thing for America when the constitution is ignored simply to appease a bunch of morons.
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
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so work elsewhere if the pay is too low.
how can anyone ask for a raise when the state is bankrupt, let alone an entire workforce?

would anyone ask for a raise when their company is deep in the red?

they can ask. But they will get laughed at. Or fired. Much like what these teachers (and other gov't employees) are facing.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
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And to get to 50k you need higher education and/or many years of service.

Starting pay is in the 25k area.

So pick a different field if you think teaching doesnt pay enough.


People know the salaries of the jobs they are going into. If it is too low for your tastes, do something else. If you don't have the ability to do something else, then you get paid the market rate for what it is you can do.

Crazy how that works.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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Why are the teachers not disciplined or fired for calling in sick? Unions.
Why are they paid too much and benefits way out of line? Unions.
Why aren't poor teachers dismissed and replaced by better ones? Unions.
Why can't the government make streamlined cuts for better education? Unions.
Why are The People in Wisconsion in so much support of this bill? Unions.
Why can't others successfully run for council office? Unions.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
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So pick a different field if you think teaching doesnt pay enough.


People know the salaries of the jobs they are going into. If it is too low for your tastes, do something else. If you don't have the ability to do something else, then you get paid the market rate for what it is you can do.

Crazy how that works.


Someone said they were over paid now you say they should just accept the 25k and be happy?

All you anti-union people need to figuire out which it is. 25k is "overpaid" or "doesnt pay enough"? :awe:
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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So pick a different field if you think teaching doesnt pay enough.


People know the salaries of the jobs they are going into. If it is too low for your tastes, do something else. If you don't have the ability to do something else, then you get paid the market rate for what it is you can do.

Crazy how that works.

I'm glad I'm not in a union.. I would've found a different job if my position was union.
 
Jul 10, 2007
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Someone said they were over paid now you say they should just accept the 25k and be happy?

All you anti-union people need to figuire out which it is. 25k is "overpaid" or "doesnt pay enough"? :awe:

He is demanding that state workers put 5.8% of their wages toward retirement and that they cover 12.6% of their health care premiums, which would still have them paying more than $100 less a month than the average schmoe.

HOLY SHIT, these are not unreasonable demands.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
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Problem with all your text is that what we are talking about in Wisconsin are not companies and their employees rather it is public sector employees and their unions. If you can't see how that ends up being a road to fiscal disaster you are wearing a great set of blinders. The only thing a public sector union has in common with a run of the mill union like the UAW is the word union.

After a little resarch, public employees in Wisconsin make 4.8% less even with all their perks then private employees. It seems they have already taken cuts in previous contracts. What's going on now is just union busting.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
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Someone said they were over paid now you say they should just accept the 25k and be happy?

All you anti-union people need to figuire out which it is. 25k is "overpaid" or "doesnt pay enough"? :awe:

Let the market do the deciding. If you are not satisfied with 25k, don't teach. If there aren't enough teachers, the salary will have to be raised to recruit people qualified to do the work.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
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After a little resarch, public employees in Wisconsin make 4.8% less even with all their perks then private employees. It seems they have already taken cuts in previous contracts. What's going on now is just union busting.

Yes but they enjoy much better job security than the average person in the private sector.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
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HOLY SHIT, these are not unreasonable demands.

Correct. I already contribute more toward my retirement and health care than teachers do now.. this would make it about even.

I'm glad Walker is pushing this.. but he shouldn't have excluded police and firefighter unions from it.