GOP pundit: "GOP working class communities deserve to die"

[HamburgerBoy]

As far as "artificially" goes, we are a free society and we can demand better wages. As for China, Communism is why they take their jobs at their current wages.

As for yourself, it sounds like you want the same thing here.

I'm pretty sure the rapid growth in China is thanks to their free trade zones, not communism. I don't think communism has much to do with the many new millionaires and billionaires in China.

There is no "Real Market Value".

Whatever you want to call it, government laws dictating minimum wages, labor influx, outsourcing, etc altogether constitute protectionism to artificially prop American jobs above what they would be worth on an international market.

 

[1prophet]

As far as "artificially" goes, we are a free society and we can demand better wages. As for China, Communism is why they take their jobs at their current wages.

As for yourself, it sounds like you want the same thing here.

The problem is you also demand cheaper prices that is the reason for Chinese employees replacing your "better wage" employees, nothing to do with communism.

Americans selfishness and greed is the root cause of most of this countries problems, you want a wine lifestyle at cheap beer prices while someone else is paying for it.

 

[DrDoug]

I'm pretty sure the rapid growth in China is thanks to their free trade zones, not communism. I don't think communism has much to do with the many new millionaires and billionaires in China.

...

No, having a controlled and compliant pool of labor combined with practically no environmental regulations, all courtesy of the Communist government, combined with American companies who moved their manufacturing over there, has made those few new millionaires and billionaires.

"Free trade zones"? China? lol!

 

[DrDoug]

The problem is you also demand cheaper prices that is the reason for Chinese employees replacing your "better wage" employees, nothing to do with communism.

Americans selfishness and greed is the root cause of most of this countries problems, you want a wine lifestyle at cheap beer prices while someone else is paying for it.

Nobody asked me, they just assumed that's what everybody thought (or so they say). I have always bought quality and higher prices are what you pay for it. I have always gladly paid for quality American products in the past but that option has pretty much been taken away from me by many corporations because of profit. So don't tell me that it's my fault because it isn't.

If I have the option I still prefer to buy American products, even if they cost more.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

No, having a controlled and compliant pool of labor combined with practically no environmental regulations, all courtesy of the Communist government, combined with American companies who moved their manufacturing over there, has made those few new millionaires and billionaires.

"Free trade zones"? China? lol!

Yeah, all those bumpkins plucked fresh from the rice paddies bowing to their leaders, just plugging along in a Foxconn factory somewhere. China has no business of their own, just outsourced factories. Those yellow folk sure are easy to control. There is no Chinese middle class. Everyone knows this.

 

[sandorski]

I'm pretty sure the rapid growth in China is thanks to their free trade zones, not communism. I don't think communism has much to do with the many new millionaires and billionaires in China.



Whatever you want to call it, government laws dictating minimum wages, labor influx, outsourcing, etc altogether constitute protectionism to artificially prop American jobs above what they would be worth on an international market.

Uhh, ya. If you think that's a bad thing, you're clueless.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Why do you think some people are more worthy of jobs than others? Would you be OK if your country opened their borders entirely and allowed anyone to become a citizen if they applied? If that happened here, I could guarantee you that we would have a LOT of people from poor and war-stricken nations more than happy to work sub-minimum wage. If you don't allow wages to drop in response, say hello to an even larger unemployed population that struggles to live up to our unrealistically high standard of living.

 

[nickqt]

Why do you think some people are more worthy of jobs than others? Would you be OK if your country opened their borders entirely and allowed anyone to become a citizen if they applied? If that happened here, I could guarantee you that we would have a LOT of people from poor and war-stricken nations more than happy to work sub-minimum wage. If you don't allow wages to drop in response, say hello to an even larger unemployed population that struggles to live up to our unrealistically high standard of living.

Laws, treaties, and taxes are policies that can either encourage or discourage high wages and employment, or low wages and unemployment.

So, by allowing US manufacturing to be done overseas with no tax penalties, where there are sparse or no labor laws, environmental laws, etc, then you are encouraging low wages and unemployment.

Capitalism is essentially a process where "slack" in an economy can be turned into a profit by someone who exploits it.

Over the past 40 years, lower taxes that make reinvestment back into the company irrelevant, paired with Wall St. deregulation and Free Trade Agreements has transformed the American middle class into the "slack" that JobCreators™ exploit...by creating jobs in India, China, Vietnam, or Malaysia.

The race to the bottom is just international now, whereas for awhile it was limited to being inside the US, as jobs moved south and west, away from unionized areas.

At the end of the day, it's pretty much too late to really reverse this. All we can hope for is that everywhere else adopts similar labor and environmental laws, thereby making jobs here in the US as cost-effective as it has been to give it to someone else.

To really reverse it, there would need to be higher taxes with tax breaks for reinvestment back into the company, as well as tight regulations on Wall St. criminals, and the repeal of Free Trade Agreements that don't inherently contain provisions with similar labor and environmental laws in each member country.

 

[DrDoug]

Yeah, all those bumpkins plucked fresh from the rice paddies bowing to their leaders, just plugging along in a Foxconn factory somewhere. China has no business of their own, just outsourced factories. Those yellow folk sure are easy to control. There is no Chinese middle class. Everyone knows this.

Not one thing you said here addressed what was said in the post that you quoted. Your statement is a complete non-sequitur.

Congratulations, once again you have proven that you're an idiot.

 

[skull]

I was reading a good article where it was comparing the charges now being made to the working whites to the demonization of black culture as the root of their poverty since the 60s (when blatent racism became unacceptable.)

It's not the economic system that is failing them, it's because they are horrible, immoral people who just want to take drugs, create baby momma's suckled on welfare funds and food stamps.

Congrats working white people, you just became n******* for not accepting the pittance the owner class are offering you.

Exactly they've taken on black culture. Poor me the mans keeping me down wah wahhhhhh. I deserve an SUV and a big screen. While they cash the hand out checks and take EIC. The shit apples keeping falling from the shit tree. But the poor in America have it better than the a lot of people. Cry more, all this politically correct bullshit has turned America into a bunch of entitled pussies. Somebody needs to tell them to stop crying and get back to work. Maybe Trump can do it.

 

[nickqt]

Their complaints as being dismissed as coming from lecherous, immoral people who only want to take from others.

It's not a logical argument, is an ad hominem rather than a serious consideration of their situations.

Again, think of all the parallel charges that have been made against the black communities for decades (broken families, drug use, welfare, lack of drive & education, etc) versus the drivel in that article.

"Don't blame the govt and business, blame yourselves, and let's keep the power in the hands of the people it belongs to you dogs."

Here is an opinion piece that reflects some of what you're saying.

http://www.ianwelsh.net/why-poor-white-males-are-the-core-of-trumps-support/

 

[Bowfinger]

Nobody asked me, they just assumed that's what everybody thought (or so they say). I have always bought quality and higher prices are what you pay for it. I have always gladly paid for quality American products in the past but that option has pretty much been taken away from me by many corporations because of profit. So don't tell me that it's my fault because it isn't.

If I have the option I still prefer to buy American products, even if they cost more.

Exactly, well said. I'd much rather pay a higher price for quality than a cheap price for crap, and I'd prefer that quality be produced as close to home as possible. The irony is that I actually save money that way. As I look around me, I see things I bought 30+ years ago, still going strong. Quality is a good investment, something most instant-gratification Americans seem to have forgotten.

 

[cyclohexane]

Exactly, well said. I'd much rather pay a higher price for quality than a cheap price for crap, and I'd prefer that quality be produced as close to home as possible. The irony is that I actually save money that way. As I look around me, I see things I bought 30+ years ago, still going strong. Quality is a good investment, something most instant-gratification Americans seem to have forgotten.

Quality American products? You mean that Chevy truck with 3 inch gaps in the dashboard and a failing engine? Plenty of shitty made in USA products as well. Just because something is made in country X doesn't make it better or worse by default.

 

[LegendKiller]

Exactly they've taken on black culture. Poor me the mans keeping me down wah wahhhhhh. I deserve an SUV and a big screen. While they cash the hand out checks and take EIC. The shit apples keeping falling from the shit tree. But the poor in America have it better than the a lot of people. Cry more, all this politically correct bullshit has turned America into a bunch of entitled pussies. Somebody needs to tell them to stop crying and get back to work. Maybe Trump can do it.

Except white unemployment is far lower, single motherhood lower, education level higher...etc.

The problem is that instead of just accepting welfare, they are fighting back.

 

[Bowfinger]

Quality American products? You mean that Chevy truck with 3 inch gaps in the dashboard and a failing engine? Plenty of shitty made in USA products as well. Just because something is made in country X doesn't make it better or worse by default.

Reread my post. I said I prefer to buy quality, and I prefer that quality be produced close to home. I didn't say all American goods are high quality. I agree American cars used to be lower quality (though I think some makes have gotten better).

 

[LegendKiller]

Quality American products? You mean that Chevy truck with 3 inch gaps in the dashboard and a failing engine? Plenty of shitty made in USA products as well. Just because something is made in country X doesn't make it better or worse by default.

Never heard of American engines being terrible. Most of their knocks are on quality of materials, fit and finish, and electrical.

 

[LegendKiller]

Reread my post. I said I prefer to buy quality, and I prefer that quality be produced close to home. I didn't say all American goods are high quality. I agree American cars used to be lower quality (though I think some makes have gotten better).

I asked a company which buys over 100k cars a year about American quality over their 5 years of tracking. What they said is that American quality is nearly on par with Japanese and once you take lower initial and long term cost into account they have a much lower total cost of ownership. Their data going out further than that is smaller but they think the cars have improved massively.

 

[Jhhnn]

Here is an opinion piece that reflects some of what you're saying.

http://www.ianwelsh.net/why-poor-white-males-are-the-core-of-trumps-support/

It's an interesting article and a dishonest one at the same time, particularly with the Clinton bashing.

It also tries to pin working class malaise on China when there's a lot more to it than that. Much of what's gone wrong for us has to do with the tech boom, which was in many ways a tech revolution specifically designed to reduce human labor input. "Your services are no longer required" is the truth for all too many people. It's systemic.

While the benefits are obvious the fact that people & society in general haven't been adequately compensated for share of income loss is more subtle. It's almost impossible to see let alone address within our frame of ownership & responsibility. We simply define the situation to absolve the ownership class of many responsibilities towards the nation & its people taken for granted in the Post WW2 New Deal era. We disconnected wealth & power from civic responsibility. American capitalists see American workers little differently than they see other labor pools around the globe.

We let that happen, of course, in our well indoctrinated way.

 

[LegendKiller]

It's an interesting article and a dishonest one at the same time, particularly with the Clinton bashing.

It also tries to pin working class malaise on China when there's a lot more to it than that. Much of what's gone wrong for us has to do with the tech boom, which was in many ways a tech revolution specifically designed to reduce human labor input. "Your services are no longer required" is the truth for all too many people. It's systemic.

While the benefits are obvious the fact that people & society in general haven't been adequately compensated for share of income loss is more subtle. It's almost impossible to see let alone address within our frame of ownership & responsibility. We simply define the situation to absolve the ownership class of many responsibilities towards the nation & its people taken for granted in the Post WW2 New Deal era. We disconnected wealth & power from civic responsibility. American capitalists see American workers little differently than they see other labor pools around the globe.

We let that happen, of course, in our well indoctrinated way.

The amount of jobs taken by tech pales in comparison to those taken by China. Further, the jobs in robotics, which are taking jobs in China, could have been performed here.

 

[nickqt]

It's an interesting article and a dishonest one at the same time, particularly with the Clinton bashing.

It also tries to pin working class malaise on China when there's a lot more to it than that. Much of what's gone wrong for us has to do with the tech boom, which was in many ways a tech revolution specifically designed to reduce human labor input. "Your services are no longer required" is the truth for all too many people. It's systemic.

While the benefits are obvious the fact that people & society in general haven't been adequately compensated for share of income loss is more subtle. It's almost impossible to see let alone address within our frame of ownership & responsibility. We simply define the situation to absolve the ownership class of many responsibilities towards the nation & its people taken for granted in the Post WW2 New Deal era. We disconnected wealth & power from civic responsibility. American capitalists see American workers little differently than they see other labor pools around the globe.

We let that happen, of course, in our well indoctrinated way.

It's a fairly short opinion piece, at I see it simply as one reason why a lot of people are Trump supporters.

I see the typical Republican-base-voter-turned-Trump-supporter as someone who has woken up from the voodoo economics scam that has been in effect for the past 35+ years. They still don't see how systemic voodoo economics is, and the fact that Trump in no way has the power or desire to reverse it, but Trump does make all sorts of noise about illegals and mooselmans and "others" they don't identify with.

In other words, half of the Trump supporters should be classic Sanders supporters, but for instinctual tribalism they still cling too. If they put even half the effort in supporting Sanders, who is honest, that they put into Trump, then Sanders would be crushing HRC. And yet the same people rooting for Sanders as "better" than HRC are supporting the known confidence man Trump, who doesn't actually produce anything as much as he markets, aka, sells bullshit for massive profit, to people who don't know any better.

 

[Jhhnn]

The amount of jobs taken by tech pales in comparison to those taken by China. Further, the jobs in robotics, which are taking jobs in China, could have been performed here.

Source?

Most any job can be performed in this country. So what?

 

[Brian Stirling]

Spending for automation as a percentage of the manufacturing budget is actually down over the last 20+ years owing to the fact that is often cheaper to just use cheap people. Why spend billions developing hands off manufacturing when you can skip those up front costs altogether and just exploit cheap labor. The companies that do shell out those kinds of money are not likely to get much of a cost advantage over those the exploit cheap labor and they're in debt to the tune of billions.

Automation and robotics are a distraction in the jobs and income debate and it's not surprising that the stories promoting the idea, stories that come up quite regularly, are being promotes by the same folks pushing outsourcing etc. They know it's a distraction and are promoting it to confuse people. China has converted many 10's of millions of former farmers into manufacturing workers in just the last 25 years and unless a Chinese person is somehow considered something other than a human that means they've added many 10's of millions of people into that field.

We are not reducing the number of people that are involved in manufacturing globally, quite the opposite. What we have done however is devalue the work -- and the people doing it...


Brian

 

[Jhhnn]

Spending for automation as a percentage of the manufacturing budget is actually down over the last 20+ years owing to the fact that is often cheaper to just use cheap people. Why spend billions developing hands off manufacturing when you can skip those up front costs altogether and just exploit cheap labor. The companies that do shell out those kinds of money are not likely to get much of a cost advantage over those the exploit cheap labor and they're in debt to the tune of billions.

Automation and robotics are a distraction in the jobs and income debate and it's not surprising that the stories promoting the idea, stories that come up quite regularly, are being promotes by the same folks pushing outsourcing etc. They know it's a distraction and are promoting it to confuse people. China has converted many 10's of millions of former farmers into manufacturing workers in just the last 25 years and unless a Chinese person is somehow considered something other than a human that means they've added many 10's of millions of people into that field.

We are not reducing the number of people that are involved in manufacturing globally, quite the opposite. What we have done however is devalue the work -- and the people doing it...


Brian

It's not just about manufacturing or robots. It's about most aspects of life & business. It's about improved engineering, methods, materials & tools. About more efficient methods of distribution & communication. It's about Wal Mart & Amazon vs small town Main St. Bank tellers vs ATM's. Auto mechanics vs electronic self diagnostics. High speed trading algorithms vs traders. Telephone receptionists vs voice recognition software. It's about natural gas pipelines vs heating oil delivered by truck. It's about prefab vs stick built homes. It's about a lot of things involving what we accept as progress.

 

[lopri]

I do not think manufacturing jobs are coming back to the U.S. Manufacturing, maybe yes. Manufacturing jobs, no.

 

[Jhhnn]

Spending for automation as a percentage of the manufacturing budget is actually down over the last 20+ years owing to the fact that is often cheaper to just use cheap people. Why spend billions developing hands off manufacturing when you can skip those up front costs altogether and just exploit cheap labor. The companies that do shell out those kinds of money are not likely to get much of a cost advantage over those the exploit cheap labor and they're in debt to the tune of billions.

Automation and robotics are a distraction in the jobs and income debate and it's not surprising that the stories promoting the idea, stories that come up quite regularly, are being promotes by the same folks pushing outsourcing etc. They know it's a distraction and are promoting it to confuse people. China has converted many 10's of millions of former farmers into manufacturing workers in just the last 25 years and unless a Chinese person is somehow considered something other than a human that means they've added many 10's of millions of people into that field.

We are not reducing the number of people that are involved in manufacturing globally, quite the opposite. What we have done however is devalue the work -- and the people doing it...


Brian

We mostly increased profits.