GOP Debate February 6th

[michal1980]

And that's when you reach the point in your civilization where the vast majority of people are disconnected from the wealth the civilization produces. Bob is still there, pushing the buttons and making his employer, Stanley Sprockets lots and lots of money. Do you just tell Bob to love it or leave it?

You can, but then, go figure, populists like Trump and Sanders become popular. In essence, FDR was an aristocrat who realized that if you let that disconnect continue for too long, well, fascism or communism, pick your poison. The US got to pretty much skip those two failed experiments. And voila, between the stimulus of the New Deal and the stimulus of WWII, middle class prosperity for close to 50 years.

Here is something you may or may not have seen before (link below), but I find it an interesting way to look at the future. With 7 billion humans today, and more to come, eventually technology and automation will make it virtually impossible for their to be work for every single human.

Then what?

Take a look.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2011/12/four-futures/

re you one of those noobs that think theres only one pie, and that the rich got richer by taking more of it?

 

[Banana]

You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, it’s crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on it's back. The tortoise lays on it's back, it's belly baking in the hot sun, beating it's legs trying to turn it'self over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?

This seemed fitting

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Haha the debate entry to Yackity Sax, the Bennie Hill theme song:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5a_TwJ2f-QQ

 

[CitizenKain]

re you one of those noobs that think theres only one pie, and that the rich got richer by taking more of it?

Why do you comment on things you are way too stupid to understand?

 

[ivwshane]

More fact checking:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/fact-checking-gop-debate_us_56b7537fe4b08069c7a798bf

 

[HamburgerBoy]

This is about stagnant wages amid rising costs.
I was trying to demonstrate why, because that stagnation is a real problem for everyone.

That's inflation-adjusted, so I don't see how you can say rising costs are necessarily a factor unless you're talking about people with above-average educational or medical consumption (which is a different problem). Additionally, that graph is useless unless they explain how they define income. I've learned today that the Census' definition of income is quite variable, and the CBPP doesn't appear to explain which definition they used in making that graph. That's important because obviously work benefits like medical insurance are going to disproportionately cut into middle class incomes more than affluent ones.

 

[Subyman]

Why do you comment on things you are way too stupid to understand?

I guess he believes there is infinite pie.

 

[nickqt]

re you one of those noobs that think theres only one pie, and that the rich got richer by taking more of it?

The explosion of millionaires and billionaires over the past 40 years, as wages have stagnated, is a fact.

If you would like to talk about pie, I'm fairly certain there is an appropriate thread where you can talk about pie, and horsies, and whatever else pops in and out of your simple mind.

Have a great day.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The explosion of millionaires and billionaires over the past 40 years, as wages have stagnated, is a fact.

If you would like to talk about pie, I'm fairly certain there is an appropriate thread where you can talk about pie, and horsies, and whatever else pops in and out of your simple mind.

Have a great day.

Explosion, huh? You mean new millionaires and billionaires are being created, and it's not just the Waltons and Rockefellers that hold all the money? :hmm:

 

[nickqt]

Explosion, huh? You mean new millionaires and billionaires are being created, and it's not just the Waltons and Rockefellers that hold all the money? :hmm:

Why do you continue to accuse me of things I've never said? When did I say that only the Waltons and Rockefellers had all the money?

By the way, the US middle class didn't arise from genocide and famine everywhere around the world, going back to some other comment you made to me last night.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Why do you continue to accuse me of things I've never said? When did I say that only the Waltons and Rockefellers had all the money?

By the way, the US middle class didn't arise from genocide and famine everywhere around the world, going back to some other comment you made to me last night.

Who are these millionaires and billionaires exploding in wealth? I don't deny that there are many people illegitimately wealthy by exploiting various protections given by the government (see: drug production monopolies for an easy one), but your previous couple posts seemed to be supporting the general Bernie rhetoric that the rich are just this good old boy's club lazing on the effort of the exploiting working class. Tell me, roughly-speaking, how many millionaires and billionaires you think have made it by cutting into the lower and middle class' share of wealth.

Part of your argument was that the world has a ton of people, still growing rapidly, and that there aren't enough jobs to go around. I agree on that point. You then cited that FDR's policies helped provide Americans jobs and raise them out of the Great Depression; I agree to an extent there as well, but not that it is necessarily something that can be repeated. Part of that prosperity was based on the good fortune on Europe being bombed to hell and tens of millions being killed; it put us in a position where we, a manufacturing powerhouse unaffected by bombing raids for the most part, could offload our products on some of the wealthiest nations in the world. We didn't have baby boomers yet hogging up pensions and retiring with roughly 20 more years of sucking down medical services. And look at cases like Syria right now; what do you think would have happened to six million Jews, three million Ukranians, a million Bengalese, etcetc had they not been killed? Death absolutely reduces the burden of a state to care for the living. Even prior to Keynesian economics, post-war periods have been prosperous thanks to less mouths to feed, and more things to build for damaged regions that suddenly need them. America was one of the wealthiest countries in the world per capita immediately after the Civil War, despite the South's mode of economy being destroyed. I'm saying that to expect Americans to live in this happy 1950s-60s bubble where we all have jobs and the rest of the world is too fucked over to pose an economic threat is unrealistic.

 

[michal1980]

Why do you comment on things you are way too stupid to understand?

says who? A liberal corpse fucker like yourself?

 

[michal1980]

The explosion of millionaires and billionaires over the past 40 years, as wages have stagnated, is a fact.

If you would like to talk about pie, I'm fairly certain there is an appropriate thread where you can talk about pie, and horsies, and whatever else pops in and out of your simple mind.

Have a great day.

So if the rich got richer but everyone else stayed the same, the amount of money in the world increased... interesting.

but your pea size liberal brain cant move past 'they stole it from us'

 

[nickqt]

says who? A liberal corpse fucker like yourself?

So if the rich got richer but everyone else stayed the same, the amount of money in the world increased... interesting.

but your pea size liberal brain cant move past 'they stole it from us'

You're literally, the stupidest person who posts here.

So, congratulations!

 

[nickqt]

Who are these millionaires and billionaires exploding in wealth? I don't deny that there are many people illegitimately wealthy by exploiting various protections given by the government (see: drug production monopolies for an easy one), but your previous couple posts seemed to be supporting the general Bernie rhetoric that the rich are just this good old boy's club lazing on the effort of the exploiting working class. Tell me, roughly-speaking, how many millionaires and billionaires you think have made it by cutting into the lower and middle class' share of wealth.

Part of your argument was that the world has a ton of people, still growing rapidly, and that there aren't enough jobs to go around. I agree on that point. You then cited that FDR's policies helped provide Americans jobs and raise them out of the Great Depression; I agree to an extent there as well, but not that it is necessarily something that can be repeated. Part of that prosperity was based on the good fortune on Europe being bombed to hell and tens of millions being killed; it put us in a position where we, a manufacturing powerhouse unaffected by bombing raids for the most part, could offload our products on some of the wealthiest nations in the world. We didn't have baby boomers yet hogging up pensions and retiring with roughly 20 more years of sucking down medical services. And look at cases like Syria right now; what do you think would have happened to six million Jews, three million Ukranians, a million Bengalese, etcetc had they not been killed? Death absolutely reduces the burden of a state to care for the living. Even prior to Keynesian economics, post-war periods have been prosperous thanks to less mouths to feed, and more things to build for damaged regions that suddenly need them. America was one of the wealthiest countries in the world per capita immediately after the Civil War, despite the South's mode of economy being destroyed. I'm saying that to expect Americans to live in this happy 1950s-60s bubble where we all have jobs and the rest of the world is too fucked over to pose an economic threat is unrealistic.

First, I never said every rich person is exploiting everyone else. There are a few though, unless you live in delusional reality, who do so. Who use their wealth and power to write laws that ensure that their wealth and power is protected. It's as old as time. They used to be called the aristocracy.

Second, the US didn't become as wealthy as it was because everywhere else didn't have manufacturing. Our trade volume didn't increase all that much. But, the fact that the US infrastructure wasn't destroyed, but in fact improved (thanks, FDR), and the massive amount of pent up demand during WWII, and technology, and the end of a lot of rationing, meant that people who had earned money during WWII had a bunch of it lying around and ready to spend on things they wanted. Throw on top of that the US dollar as a reserve currency, and the perpetual stimulus to the US military since WWII, and that's why the US did what it did, and had a middle class the way it did.

Again, if you want to go full retard like michal1980, go for it. But, I never said that people are always unable to earn a living today because the evil rich people make it impossible to do so.

What I, and others, bring up is that if you let people who have a lot of money and power write the laws so that they are able to soak up more of the benefits than they would otherwise, it isn't a fair playing field. Taking a look at the economy of the US over the past 40+ years, I see an unfair playing field, where money and power is able to protect itself through laws.

I mean, even conservatives and Republicans see it, and they're just as pissed. Witness Trump, the Tea Party, the anti-establishment candidates that are popular to both Democrats and Republicans.

 

[maddie]

And that's when you reach the point in your civilization where the vast majority of people are disconnected from the wealth the civilization produces. Bob is still there, pushing the buttons and making his employer, Stanley Sprockets lots and lots of money. Do you just tell Bob to love it or leave it?

You can, but then, go figure, populists like Trump and Sanders become popular. In essence, FDR was an aristocrat who realized that if you let that disconnect continue for too long, well, fascism or communism, pick your poison. The US got to pretty much skip those two failed experiments. And voila, between the stimulus of the New Deal and the stimulus of WWII, middle class prosperity for close to 50 years.

Here is something you may or may not have seen before (link below), but I find it an interesting way to look at the future. With 7 billion humans today, and more to come, eventually technology and automation will make it virtually impossible for their to be work for every single human.

Then what?

Take a look.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2011/12/four-futures/

If you have time, what do you think?

Ted Talk:

Yanis Varoufakis Capitalism will eat democracy — unless we speak up - December 2015

 

[michal1980]

You're literally, the stupidest person who posts here.

So, congratulations!

Says who? brain dead liberals? Because they are challenged on their brain dead beliefs?


You keep believing the rich stole something from you, keep blaming someone else for being a failure of a human being.

 

[Phokus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q7D3uM93Es&feature=youtu.be

 

[lopri]

Well at least he can't say that he wasn't given a chance. The Kochs are horrible at picking national sock puppet. They should probably stay at the state level with the likes of Scott Walker.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

First, I never said every rich person is exploiting everyone else. There are a few though, unless you live in delusional reality, who do so. Who use their wealth and power to write laws that ensure that their wealth and power is protected. It's as old as time. They used to be called the aristocracy.

Second, the US didn't become as wealthy as it was because everywhere else didn't have manufacturing. Our trade volume didn't increase all that much. But, the fact that the US infrastructure wasn't destroyed, but in fact improved (thanks, FDR), and the massive amount of pent up demand during WWII, and technology, and the end of a lot of rationing, meant that people who had earned money during WWII had a bunch of it lying around and ready to spend on things they wanted. Throw on top of that the US dollar as a reserve currency, and the perpetual stimulus to the US military since WWII, and that's why the US did what it did, and had a middle class the way it did.

Again, if you want to go full retard like michal1980, go for it. But, I never said that people are always unable to earn a living today because the evil rich people make it impossible to do so.

What I, and others, bring up is that if you let people who have a lot of money and power write the laws so that they are able to soak up more of the benefits than they would otherwise, it isn't a fair playing field. Taking a look at the economy of the US over the past 40+ years, I see an unfair playing field, where money and power is able to protect itself through laws.

I mean, even conservatives and Republicans see it, and they're just as pissed. Witness Trump, the Tea Party, the anti-establishment candidates that are popular to both Democrats and Republicans.

It's not so much absolute trade volume as it is our percentage of exports relative to the world. I'm having difficulty finding the exact WTO figures apparently cited here, but the general trend seems believable to me; as the rest of the world rebuilt itself, overthrew communism, etc, they became more competitive on the international market and were able to undercut America where previously we were able to build all sorts of cheap things and live off of it. Now we have a higher standard of living and require more skilled laborers, so that people want to buy goods from us rather than Bangladesh.

So I'm not sure what you're proposing. Massively ramped-up taxation and public spending on par with WW2 levels, to boost the economy? You're saying not all billionaires are exploitative, but then what to do with the ones that are? That's my problem with Sanders and anyone that just says "the rich are why you can't flip burgers for $15/hr when your granddaddy could", the connection between wealth building up at the top and poor people not finding work isn't that simple.

 

[Sonikku]

In the baby boomer generation, no one had the royal fantasy of "making it" with a job of pumping gas. They accepted it as a stepping stone to "making it". They realized that it would be god damn laughable to work a fast food job and expect to pay for both yourself and your child's cost of living.

But that was when people were logical. Let's not talk about that though. I'm doing just fine, consulting people on what they are doing wrong is making me quite the pretty penny - so I could honestly careless

That bottom feeder job pumping gas probably bought you a boat load more college tuition than the burger flipping job does today.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

That bottom feeder job pumping gas probably bought you a boat load more college tuition than the burger flipping job does today.

That's what scholarships and financial aid are for.

 

[Phokus]

Hey guys

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov//p...hat-hes-doing-he-knows-exactly-what-hes-doing

:awe:

 

[Sonikku]

That's what scholarships and financial aid are for.

If you're one of the few that get a paid ticket through college off of a scholarship then more power to you, though that is more the exception than the rule. Certainly there are opportunities to shackle yourself to boat loads of debt even getting a non mickey mouse degree. Though it is debt on a level baby boomers would not have dreamed of from just getting a decent education. The whole "Sure tuition has gone up 700% in the last thirty years, but you can take out bigger and bigger loans to pick up the slack" isn't much consolation.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

If you're one of the few that get a paid ticket through college off of a scholarship then more power to you, though that is more the exception than the rule. Certainly there are opportunities to shackle yourself to boat loads of debt even getting a non mickey mouse degree. Though it is debt on a level baby boomers would not have dreamed of from just getting a decent education. The whole "Sure tuition has gone up 700% in the last thirty years, but you can take out bigger and bigger loans to pick up the slack" isn't much consolation.

The median student at University of Illinois, UCSD, etc has full tuition covered. Not the exception.