Good "god" arguments!

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: HotChic
I'm going to post once and you can feel free to consider or disregard my thoughts. I won't be checking back in on my post because I have neither the time nor inclination for debate tonight.

If the events of the Acts of the Apostles occurred today, I think that they could, in some measure, be used as a proof. Chronic illness healed, death undone, prison doors opened, and so on. (If you haven't the vaguest idea of what I'm talking about, feel free to read the first portions of Acts.) Naturally, this doesn't make up a good argument today because there's no way of fully judging the accuracy or truthfulness of the written accounts. Nor, even so, would that allow scientific experimentation on the subjects.

In like manner, one of my own personal arguments for the existance of God, and I speak now of an argument I use with myself, with no intention of convincing others, is that I have seen and encountered some similar things. This isn't much of an argument for others because, as with the written account, it is a testimonial that cannot be scientifically examined in a way to satisfy the scientific method. However, when you have had the chance to see, touch, examine and apply an informal scientific method, it becomes convincing for the single observer. My own arguments for God, when I argue within myself, include the evidence that I have seen by way of cause and effect that mimics the stories in Acts, and in the gospels.

I don't think it's a particularly good way of collecting information to ask a lot of unschooled people to provide scientific evidence; a forum of scientists would be the better place for that. As for logical evidence, your own link dooms this discussion from the beginning. "... based on the truth of a set of assertions called premises." The particular groups that involve themselves in this discussion will never see logic in each others' statements because they will not, and perhaps cannot, agree on a shared set of premises.

You're religious see things, adn therefore you believe, you need to turn that around.

And btw, how can you be named "HotChic" when you're nearing a 7 post per day average on AT Forums
I find that odd, even though i recognise that the chance of you being a "girl" is somewhat slightly dimmed by that very fact!

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: AyashiKaibutsu

Originally posted by: datalink7
Proofs of God?s Existence:

TRANSCENDENTAL ARGUMENT
(1) God exists.
(2) If God exists, then if reason exists then God exists.
(3) Reason exists.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

Every single one of those is false... I'll take this one for example. You make the assumption G. then you say G->R then you say R therefore G
a table for G->R goes tftt. Assuming your assumptions are true and knowing G you could say R. Knowing R you could say either G or not G and it would still be true. if you reverse it and had R->G you'd have a logicly correct statement, but you'd still need to proove your assumptions.

The burden of proof is for existance. Asking people to proove nonexistance is stupid. If your faith gives you all the proof you need then fine, but your word doesn't cut it for a lot of people. I could say there is no proof that aliens aren't aiming world destorying weapons at us right now therefore there are aliens doing so. How well does that go down with you proove nonexistance people?

Yess, well, the Transcendental Argument is one of the weaker ones. Why didn't you point out one of the stronger ones? I know... because you can't refute them!!!

For instance, take this one:

ARGUMENT FROM ASSUMPTION
(1) Therefore, God exists.

Or, how about, this one:

ARGUMENT FROM BECAUSE
(1) Because.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ELABORATED ARGUMENT FROM BECAUSE
(1) Because.
(2) Because why?
(3) Because!
(4) Therefore, God exists.

You have just been pwn3d.

 

[JustAnAverageGuy]

and to think I thought that was a satire post.

Thank you for editting the post though.

 

[Forsythe]

First of all, how do you know humans don't have a specific purpose and you just don't know what it is?
Secondly can you name something complex that you can prove just came to be on its own? Have you seen a watch spontaneously appear on earth before humans made one? Why not? It's simpler than human life why didn't the metals just form together to make something, anything? Why is all life on earth biological? Biological life is more complex than simple machines, surely there would be a greater probability for it to have occured than biological life, right?

Well, take the average clock, hold that thought, Think about it, concentrate! Now, tell me, does that clock do anything even remotely similar to the thing that created us and the rest of the pretty darned complex universe (Just look at the coloration of rocks, the mandelbrot look at galaxy's) which is called evolution. Simply put, does the watch have any possibility of evolving?

I see your line of thought, and i must admit, i find it interesting. You just missed a minor detail, i do that myself when playing chess. But you must remember, that far more similar things once existed, but have almost completely ceased to be!

And by the way, humans do have a purpose, we actually have two! They are ranked:

1)Survive
2)Breed

It's as simple as that. Voila ladies and gentlemen, the meaning of life. I know i can't make you believe this, but it might come some day. But if we think about evolution as the progress it is, we see that it is true. The way we became "alive" was with the interconnectedness (spll?) of our brain. THAT is something a highly educated person can tell you, not i, not yet. I'm doing particle physics, so it might be a while before i get to the level where i can explain such things!

 

[erikistired]

i dunno i used to believe in god, then for awhile i lost my faith (and i guess i still haven't found it). i went thru a period of depression thinking about dying (children are wonderful things and they make you happier then ever, but for me it also brought on a lot of thinking about mortality) and death. these days i've pretty much decided i'm going to die regardless of what i believe, and it brings some comfort that this isn't it and there's something past this, whether it's god or just floating in the sky or whatever else. i do believe we have a soul and i believe that soul will live on after our physical bodies die, otherwise what's the point of even being born?

 

[Forsythe]

I've just watched terminator 1, and my, what an intriguing story! I love the way it continues through the second, but hate how the hollywood ending ruins it all, i was barely able to stand the ending in this one! (Number 3 is still giving me nightmares, horrendus, HERECY, HERECY I SAY). But im' thinking aobut sleeping, it's 6:25am here, a smart person would be sleeping. But maybe i should watch a movie?

I think i just doubled the number of posts i've made here during the night... I should be reading classical mechanics or something!

 

[Cogman]

Of course heres the great thing about believing in a god, As most religions believe in life after death Ill be able to laugh in the disbelievers faces after we both die and say "Ha ha, I was right". However if there is no life after death, Well they cant laugh at me .

(This post has nothing to really do with this thread so please to breath to deaply into it)

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: Forsythe
Belief to me is ignorance, but that doesn't matter, i'm just trying to see if religious people have any reason for their belief! And why does that make you not want to post? I don't follow!

But well, i'm off to watch "The Terminator", i hope there are more posts when i return!

isn't calling me ignorant for believing what you asked us not to do in your thread? name calling? i can say that not believing is ignorant but i don't because honestly you can do what you want in life. i don't really care if you believe or not, no one can make me believe (and many have tried) but me. please don't think that you are in anyway enlightened enough to call me ignorant if i choose to believe.

edit: used the word believe too dang many times. changed a few. i need a thesaurus.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Cogman
Of course heres the great thing about believing in a god, As most religions believe in life after death Ill be able to laugh in the disbelievers faces after we both die and say "Ha ha, I was right". However if there is no life after death, Well they cant laugh at me .

(This post has nothing to really do with this thread so please to breath to deaply into it)

That's why all the non-believers better get in as many pleasurable sins before they die to break even.

 

[iwantanewcomputer]

i think there is a natural tendancy for humans to ascribe the unknown to a higher power. it is easier to say god created us than to explain the physics of the big bang, hence god was theorised first. it is easier to say that there is life after death cause then we don't fear death as much.

i'mnot saying this is evidence against god, but i just have trouble believeing it all. i'm a scientist at heart, and i want reasons to come to a conclusion, not just cause i hear stories that tell me i should have faith and other people do it. the best i can come up with is that god is the power of love, compassion, etc in every person. there are miracles, maybe not walking on water, but acts of great love performed by ordinary humans

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: Forsythe
I've just watched terminator 1, and my, what an intriguing story! I love the way it continues through the second, but hate how the hollywood ending ruins it all, i was barely able to stand the ending in this one! (Number 3 is still giving me nightmares, horrendus, HERECY, HERECY I SAY). But im' thinking aobut sleeping, it's 6:25am here, a smart person would be sleeping. But maybe i should watch a movie?

I think i just doubled the number of posts i've made here during the night... I should be reading classical mechanics or something!

how is 3 herecy? it HAS to end the way it does. i mean, the story sucked, but what can they do? but still, it HAS to be that way, because otherwise none of this would be happening. he wouldn't be coming back so many times if it hadn't succeeded. if the first terminator had changed things, it never would have happened, so he couldn't have come back, so it never would have happened... just by coming back it proves that ultimately the machines will take over! now tho, they can further the story by doing a movie about the war! here's to hoping at least, altho arnold eventually has to age i guess.

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
i think there is a natural tendancy for humans to ascribe the unknown to a higher power. it is easier to say god created us than to explain the physics of the big bang, hence god was theorised first. it is easier to say that there is life after death cause then we don't fear death as much.

i'mnot saying this is evidence against god, but i just have trouble believeing it all. i'm a scientist at heart, and i want reasons to come to a conclusion, not just cause i hear stories that tell me i should have faith and other people do it. the best i can come up with is that god is the power of love, compassion, etc in every person. there are miracles, maybe not walking on water, but acts of great love performed by ordinary humans

i have trouble believing it because i'm the type that has to be able to SEE proof. i have a hard time just going on someone's word. however, at the same time, i see monkeys at the zoo and none of them are typing on the internet, yet we supposedly evolved from them? or something like that? show me a monkey that can play doom 3 and post on anandtech (well, okay, some of the people here are probably in fact escaped monkeys, so scratch that one) and i'll start believing we evolved a bit more.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: fisher

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Forsythe
I am a complete atheist, nuff said about me.
Give me arguments on why i should believe.

The abovestatement gives me a reason not to comply with the above request.

I think god is something personal enough that no one is going to convince you of its existance.

Belief to me is ignorance, but that doesn't matter, i'm just trying to see if religious people have any reason for their belief! And why does that make you not want to post? I don't follow!

But well, i'm off to watch "The Terminator", i hope there are more posts when i return!

isn't calling me ignorant for believing what you asked us not to do in your thread? name calling? i can say that not believing is ignorant but i don't because honestly you can do what you want in life. i don't really care if you believe or not, no one can make me believe (and many have tried) but me. please don't think that you are in anyway enlightened enough to call me ignorant if i choose to believe.

Sometimes i get the feeling that people posting on the internet, simply post there just to fight! Which is what i think your post is all about! But, i didn't mean it as an assault, it's just my current view of things, if i look at it from my point of view, i cba to edit it so it stays.

Oh but i am smart enough

Of course heres the great thing about believing in a god, As most religions believe in life after death Ill be able to laugh in the disbelievers faces after we both die and say "Ha ha, I was right". However if there is no life after death, Well they cant laugh at me.

LOL, you remind me of an old danish comedian called "Victor Borge", actually dead now, he had a saying that, in english, goes something like this: "I don't believe, i hope."(referring to god, religion etc.) Which Probably also characterises my relationship with god As i'm not exactly ready to die at this moment.

 

[erikistired]

Sometimes i get the feeling that people posting on the internet, simply post there just to fight! Which is what i think your post is all about! But, i didn't mean it as an assault, it's just my current view of things, if i look at it from my point of view, i cba to edit it so it stays.

Oh but i am smart enough

no i really don't want to fight. i've come to the decision on this topic that it just isn't worth the effort. i can't hardly try and push you towards something i hardly believe in myself can i? just pointing out that calling someone ignorant isn't a good way to start a non-violent discussion.

now, if you try to talk to me about politics, flame on!

oh, and unless you're nikki sixx and was pronounced dead and came back to life, then you don't qualify as smart enough. i'm not even sure he was dead long enough to know for sure.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: fisher

Originally posted by: Forsythe
I've just watched terminator 1, and my, what an intriguing story! I love the way it continues through the second, but hate how the hollywood ending ruins it all, i was barely able to stand the ending in this one! (Number 3 is still giving me nightmares, horrendus, HERECY, HERECY I SAY). But im' thinking aobut sleeping, it's 6:25am here, a smart person would be sleeping. But maybe i should watch a movie?

I think i just doubled the number of posts i've made here during the night... I should be reading classical mechanics or something!

how is 3 herecy? it HAS to end the way it does. i mean, the story sucked, but what can they do? but still, it HAS to be that way, because otherwise none of this would be happening. he wouldn't be coming back so many times if it hadn't succeeded. if the first terminator had changed things, it never would have happened, so he couldn't have come back, so it never would have happened... just by coming back it proves that ultimately the machines will take over! now tho, they can further the story by doing a movie about the war! here's to hoping at least, altho arnold eventually has to age i guess.

Oh, don't get me wrong, i loved how the third ended!!! But i'm looking for movies with a bit bigger demand for intellectual capacity than that movie presented. And the story about the war will just be another hollywood ass flick. Terminator 4 and are on their way if you didn't know. Apparently Arnold will be back in number 5. But James cameron has simply lost his touch. Or maybe he's being forced by hollywood to change it to this dull script? Becuase imo it has good qualities, but, that's just not enough.

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: Forsythe
Oh, don't get me wrong, i loved how the third ended!!! But i'm looking for movies with a bit bigger demand for intellectual capacity than that movie presented. And the story about the war will just be another hollywood ass flick. Terminator 4 and are on their way if you didn't know. Apparently Arnold will be back in number 5. But James cameron has simply lost his touch. Or maybe he's being forced by hollywood to change it to this dull script? Becuase imo it has good qualities, but, that's just not enough.

ah okay, i thought you were denouncing the ending. yeah, the movie did suck tho, i'll agree with that. and he has definately lost his touch. i dunno, i guess most sequels end up that way, it's hard to match the original.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: fisher

Originally posted by: iwantanewcomputer
i think there is a natural tendancy for humans to ascribe the unknown to a higher power. it is easier to say god created us than to explain the physics of the big bang, hence god was theorised first. it is easier to say that there is life after death cause then we don't fear death as much.

i'mnot saying this is evidence against god, but i just have trouble believeing it all. i'm a scientist at heart, and i want reasons to come to a conclusion, not just cause i hear stories that tell me i should have faith and other people do it. the best i can come up with is that god is the power of love, compassion, etc in every person. there are miracles, maybe not walking on water, but acts of great love performed by ordinary humans

i have trouble believing it because i'm the type that has to be able to SEE proof. i have a hard time just going on someone's word. however, at the same time, i see monkeys at the zoo and none of them are typing on the internet, yet we supposedly evolved from them? or something like that? show me a monkey that can play doom 3 and post on anandtech (well, okay, some of the people here are probably in fact escaped monkeys, so scratch that one) and i'll start believing we evolved a bit more.

They simply found a stage in their evolution were they had no immediate urge to evolve. I'm actually 83% Bison, now there's a fact you didn't know!

 

[erikistired]

Originally posted by: Forsythe
They simply found a stage in their evolution were they had no immediate urge to evolve. I'm actually 83% Bison, now there's a fact you didn't know!

i can honestly say i had no idea that you were 83% bison!

so why did we evolve and the others didn't? we did we NEED to when they didn't? we could have just as easily kept eating bananas and swung from the trees. and how do you explain the different races? is there something in the south american water that tinted people's skin that didn't in europe?

of course, how does religion explain that? i dunno, i'm just not that smart.

 

[flawlssdistortn]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn
You have to realize the limitations of our knowledge and our brain... a few hundred years ago, we thought the earth was flat. Then we thought it was the center of the universe. About a half century ago, Einstein proved that time is not universal. In more recent years, it has been discovered that there are 10 dimensions. With all of these unbelieveable things being revealed, imagine how much more we do not know. You have to keep an open mind.

Were you trying to make a point in there somewhere?

Let me just say that I don't think the existence of God can be proven through science, or possibly even logic. The "point" of the quoted statement is that even things that are considered as "givens" or "infallible" are not necessarily truths. Yes, I am even challenging logic. God is not bound by logic. I know that sounds crazy, but it is a christian idea that God cannot be comprehended unless God reveals himself. Even then, one can't hope to completely "understand" God.

If you really want to know if God exists, you will keep an open mind and do your part to try and make the connection. Then God will do his.

And let me ask you people something else - would you rather live with the idea that our only purpose is to survive, or breed? Or would you rather have a higher purpose?

 

[GoingUp]

Originally posted by: Todd33

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-Stephen F Roberts

winnar.

 

[AMDJunkie]

However, what you say here is absolutely correct! And per say i have no problem with religious people, if they thnik it benefits them to be religious, i'm ok with that. That's why i disagree with many atheit's decision that religion is "all bad" !

But do you have no problem with them because you imagine yourself more enlightened than them?

God is only known by people of faith from what they believe is personal experience of something that could not be anything else but a supernatural event. Whether it was a moment that "affected the soul," or perhaps a miracle, or something that "couldn't be coincidence." Since experiences of this nature usually are not put up to any real scientific method, and evidence of miracles are also poorly documented except for perhaps some Roman Catholic examples, proof of God by act of God seems to be a hard sell who requires full scientific validation before acceptance.

If you could correctly guess or stipulate the nature of God, what God is and how God works, you may be able to prove Him through that. But a Christian God would also be I dare say impossible to do that for because according to Christian faith: God is omnipotent, before God there was nothing, and God both can exist and transcend the so-called mortal plane. God by definition breaks all rules of science. Exceptions not just prove but shatter rules, and such clever linguistic arguments such as, "Can God create a weight so heavy he can't lift it," does not apply because of the limited scope of the denotation and conotation that words have cannot apply to a being whose existence does not depend on anything else's.

Though, I'm sure if you find the bones of Jesus, all faith would disappear.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: hatim
I would say go back to the begninning of the beginning of the universe as modern science says. Anyways matter can not exist out of nowhere. Energy? Where did all the energy in the universe come from? Not magically. Because outside the universe nothing exists. No dimentions, no coulour - nothingness we cannot imagine. Just becuase God is something we can not see or feel doesnt mean he does not exist.

Actually, matter does pop in and out of existence, read up on current science You're using religion to explain what you don't understand. This behavior is genetically dictated, so I can't fault you. *sigh* I hate having been born before my time

Btw, Terminators 1 & 2 were fantastic movies. 3 was an utter abomination.

 

[Doboji]

Indisputable proof that god exists

 

[nan0bug]

DIE TOPIC DIE.

Look people, the horse is DEAD. DEAD I TELL YOU.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: Doboji
Indisputable proof that god exists

If I were swayable, this would do it