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"Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes

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Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
I'm done here.
You can't process the difference between a macromolecule and food itself.
You have underlying misunderstandings of the roles of said macromolecules.
You have no idea of what dietary fiber is....Here's a hint...we can't break it down so we don't extract calories from it...Being under the carbohydrate section of your food label doesn't make it equal to sugar
I hope to god you are simply a troll.
If you really believe all this junk, then have fun with the ketosis there kid.

When it comes down to it, macro's aren't really a good indicator of what's good for anyone. I actually don't really know what you're saying since you haven't quite made a coherent point. You may or may not know some things about what you're saying, but you're doing a poor job of making a point.

Polyunsat's might be bad, but omega-3's are great for you. Sugars aren't great for the body, but fiber is generally useful. However, fiber is not the miracle satiety mechanism. The rate at which the contents of the stomach are released into the duodenum really depends on some main things: amount of fat in the food, acidity of the contents, hypertonicity, and distension of the wall lining. Clearly read that - the amount of fat in the food. This is in routine textbooks everywhere (ie my systemic physiology book). The rate of emptying of the stomach does have an effect on the satiety of person. There are hormones that also effect that rate.

I've looked up through the thread but don't believe I see any type of backing of the "fiber is satiety" kinda argument. Care to elaborate?
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
I'm done here.
You can't process the difference between a macromolecule and food itself.
You have underlying misunderstandings of the roles of said macromolecules.
You have no idea of what dietary fiber is....Here's a hint...we can't break it down so we don't extract calories from it...Being under the carbohydrate section of your food label doesn't make it equal to sugar
I hope to god you are simply a troll.
If you really believe all this junk, then have fun with the ketosis there kid.

It seems like you are being intentionally dense. Brikis has brought up numerous valid points and you have not been able to defend your side one inkling, except by using appeals to authority and ad hominems. Dietary fiber is obviously different from other types of carbohydrates because, since we can't break it down, it doesn't increase insulin production. Nobody is arguing that dietary fiber is bad for you (well, maybe someone is, but it's way beside the point of this thread). You're towing the company line here, so to speak, by attempting to shut down inquiry with hand waving and logical fallacies, saying that mainstream science has come to a consensus and thus the question is answered. It's not answered, not by a long shot, and you can't make people believe so just by closing your eyes and ignoring the mounting evidence against the consensus.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
I'm done here.
You can't process the difference between a macromolecule and food itself.
You have underlying misunderstandings of the roles of said macromolecules.
You have no idea of what dietary fiber is....Here's a hint...we can't break it down so we don't extract calories from it...Being under the carbohydrate section of your food label doesn't make it equal to sugar
I hope to god you are simply a troll.
If you really believe all this junk, then have fun with the ketosis there kid.

Well, I think SC put it perfectly: you may or may not know what you're talking about it, but you are atrocious at arguing your point. You've managed to prove nothing from your side of the argument (or even define what that is exactly) and you've shown nothing to disprove or challenge the studies I posted. I can't say your input will be missed.
 
Here is one last exclamation as you have clearly proven yourself to NOT be of a scientific field.

You say you have no problem with a 3 year old study being cited less than 5 times.

I provide you with this:
http://scholar.google.com/scho...s=10816355517466738888

Google scholar alone found 75 cites to a 2006 article on Gold conjugated antibodies and their role in PDT.
Scifinder/web of science found about 5 times more, but being as you aren't at a university you would have to pay ALOT to see that info so I'll save you from that.

Also, you demand to see recent studies on "classical nutrition".
This is an inherently flawed request.
You seem to have gaping holes in your understanding of how academic research is conducted.
Research is performed using grant money.
Do you know how you get grant money?
You present drafts and requests based upon how novel your experiment is.
You do realize that we (as in science) mapped out the mechanisms for glycolisis, gluconeogenisis, beta oxidation and the up and down regulators of each decades ago?
We've known the roles of PFK-1 and 2 for decades.
We know the phosphorylation/de-phosphorylation events that trigger messangers to control these cycles.
We know the structure and function of these messengers.
We know the intracellular second messengers that these have.
We know the transcription factors and the genes in which are up or down regulated.
We know the post translational processing events that occur to produce the final state of the proteins made.
We know the 3d structure and function of the native state of these proteins.
No one is going to give any money to people performing decades old experiments.
The only people who do these experiments any longer are undergrads.
The way you get money is to rock the boat.
You pick your fights, you cherry pick you subjects and settings and use the best fitting statistical methods.
This is why scientists are instructed to be critical of new findings.
The experts in these fields then turn to writing textbooks as a source of funds.
You conveniently ignore text books.
Unless you feel like digging through microfiche you aren't going to find a lot of this information elsewhere.
Think about it, when is the last time you saw a study conducted to test the Newtonian concepts of physics.
No one would give you a grant to conclude that gravity due to acceleration is a constant 9.8meters per second squared.
There are some things that are just common knowledge in their fields and research just isn't done upon them any longer.

An example that you should think about:

Lets say I cook a bowel of brown rice and a bowl of white rice.
Both have the same number of calories.
Both have the same composition and amount of carbohydrates, only the brown rice packs 2~3 more grams of fiber per serving than the white rice.
Assuming i eat the same amount of each, the brown rice will make me feel fuller for longer.
Also, the fiber speeds the passage of the food through my digestive tract.
The impact of this is flux....well I'll tone it down a bit.....
The food passes through faster, meaning the digestive tract has less time to pull the nutrients out of the food.
Typically the most essential elements (dietary essential amino acids and fats) are sucked out right away and the energy containing elements take the longest.
The fiber aids to reduce the number of calories taken in by the system, which get passed right back out, thus preserving thermodynamics.
Also, feeling fuller longer decreases portion sizes eaten.
This reduces the "in" of calories in.

You also attempted to mock the principal of empty calories earlier, claiming it better supported your argument.
Think about this:

Fried chicken dripping in oil
Baked chicken, using the same breading but simply prepared in an oven versus deep fried.

There are LOADS of empty calories in the fried chicken.
The oil provides little if any satiation while packing in a huge caloric load.

You claimed (by proxy) that carbohydrates induce hunger.
The flaw here is that the composition of the food is cause of the hunger.
If you look at the diets all of these low carb studies use, they tend to pack in a lot of fiber or other elements that aid in satiation.
The diet they test this against always has little fiber or other satiation providing agents.
These people will eat larger portions and sneak in what they can where they can.
Monitoring ones intake is one of the most difficult tasks for a researcher.

I'm glad this book piqued your interest.
Now at the very least, read some academic texts on the subject or take some classes in the field before you try to discredit a scientist.
There have been several works published in a variety of fields that I've been credited to.
As an undergraduate for an advanced statistics course I did some number crunching for the communications studies department.
I don't remeber the journal name, but I know I've pulled it up on google scholar before.
I've also done with in the Biochemical fields mostly on cell membranes.
There have been a few papers published on pig mitochondrial ornithine transporters that I worked in the lab to isolate and classify.
I've also worked in the Biophysics field using AFM to "map" and characterize the surface of the smooth and rough ER.
You know what the common link between all of the studies was?
They all twisted the parameters to make their conclusions appear definitive.
When you've been in these situations you become rather critical of your peers.

I would normally at this point say feel free to PM if you have anymore questions, but I already have them blocked from you as preventative measure against trolling.
You'll also note I protected my name and the title of the studies to keep my e-mail address private.
I'm completely done here, and assuming you've read my entire post, I certainly hope you are as well.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
You say you have no problem with a 3 year old study being cited less than 5 times.
If a tree falls in a forest, but no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise? I have not checked whether the numerous studies I've linked here are referenced in other papers, but even if they aren't, that doesn't exactly make them invalid.

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Also, you demand to see recent studies on "classical nutrition".
This is an inherently flawed request.
I never said I wanted to see recent studies. I said that I wanted you to provide any studies to back up your point and disprove mine. Surely, if what you say is so obvious and well known, at some point studies must have been conducted to prove it?

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
You seem to have gaping holes in your understanding of how academic research is conducted.
Research is performed using grant money.
Do you know how you get grant money?
You present drafts and requests based upon how novel your experiment is.
You do realize that we (as in science) mapped out the mechanisms for glycolisis, gluconeogenisis, beta oxidation and the up and down regulators of each decades ago?
We've known the roles of PFK-1 and 2 for decades.
We know the phosphorylation/de-phosphorylation events that trigger messangers to control these cycles.
We know the structure and function of these messengers.
We know the intracellular second messengers that these have.
We know the transcription factors and the genes in which are up or down regulated.
We know the post translational processing events that occur to produce the final state of the proteins made.
We know the 3d structure and function of the native state of these proteins.
No one is going to give any money to people performing decades old experiments.
The only people who do these experiments any longer are undergrads.
The way you get money is to rock the boat.
You pick your fights, you cherry pick you subjects and settings and use the best fitting statistical methods.
This is why scientists are instructed to be critical of new findings.
The experts in these fields then turn to writing textbooks as a source of funds.
You conveniently ignore text books.
Unless you feel like digging through microfiche you aren't going to find a lot of this information elsewhere.
Oh, that's my bad. I didn't realize the fields of diet, nutrition, obesity, heart disease, Alzheimers, cancer and countless others were 100% solved. I should probably let my friends studying food science know so they aren't wasting their time...

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Think about it, when is the last time you saw a study conducted to test the Newtonian concepts of physics.
Except for all those pesky theories that challenge Newtonian physics, such as relativity, special relativity, quantum theory and so on.

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Lets say I cook a bowel of brown rice and a bowl of white rice.
Both have the same number of calories.
Both have the same composition and amount of carbohydrates, only the brown rice packs 2~3 more grams of fiber per serving than the white rice.
Assuming i eat the same amount of each, the brown rice will make me feel fuller for longer.
Also, the fiber speeds the passage of the food through my digestive tract.
The impact of this is flux....well I'll tone it down a bit.....
The food passes through faster, meaning the digestive tract has less time to pull the nutrients out of the food.
Typically the most essential elements (dietary essential amino acids and fats) are sucked out right away and the energy containing elements take the longest.
The fiber aids to reduce the number of calories taken in by the system, which get passed right back out, thus preserving thermodynamics.
Also, feeling fuller longer decreases portion sizes eaten.
This reduces the "in" of calories in.
Do you have a study that compares brown rice and white rice or are you just basing this on your general belief that fiber is a miracle substance? Also, did you notice that, typically, white rice is much more processed - and consequently has a higher glycemic index/load - than brown rice?

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Fried chicken dripping in oil
Baked chicken, using the same breading but simply prepared in an oven versus deep fried.

There are LOADS of empty calories in the fried chicken.
The oil provides little if any satiation while packing in a huge caloric load.
Do you have a study that compares the "satiation" felt from eating fried chicken and baked chicken or are you again just basing this on a belief that fat is bad? Have you considered what would happen if you repeated the same experiment without the breading (highly processed carbs)?

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
If you look at the diets all of these low carb studies use, they tend to pack in a lot of fiber or other elements that aid in satiation.
Are you just making this up or do you have specific examples of this?

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Now at the very least, read some academic texts on the subject or take some classes in the field before you try to discredit a scientist.
There have been several works published in a variety of fields that I've been credited to.
As an undergraduate for an advanced statistics course I did some number crunching for the communications studies department.
I don't remeber the journal name, but I know I've pulled it up on google scholar before.
I've also done with in the Biochemical fields mostly on cell membranes.
There have been a few papers published on pig mitochondrial ornithine transporters that I worked in the lab to isolate and classify.
I've also worked in the Biophysics field using AFM to "map" and characterize the surface of the smooth and rough ER.
You know what the common link between all of the studies was?
They all twisted the parameters to make their conclusions appear definitive.
When you've been in these situations you become rather critical of your peers.
As I said before, I'll trust the collective expertise of a bunch of published scientists with degrees than some random guy on a messageboard who can barely make a coherent argument or backup his arguments with evidence.

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
I would normally at this point say feel free to PM if you have anymore questions, but I already have them blocked from you as preventative measure against trolling.
You'll also note I protected my name and the title of the studies to keep my e-mail address private.
I'm completely done here, and assuming you've read my entire post, I certainly hope you are as well.
You are one strange dude. You seem to be awfully threatened by me, or maybe the studies I'm posting, but seriously, it's kind of unfounded. I'm just trying to have a discussion and learn more about this issue. Freaking out and becoming paranoid seems a bit uncalled for, don't you think?
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu

You also attempted to mock the principal of empty calories earlier, claiming it better supported your argument.
Think about this:

Fried chicken dripping in oil
Baked chicken, using the same breading but simply prepared in an oven versus deep fried.

There are LOADS of empty calories in the fried chicken.
The oil provides little if any satiation while packing in a huge caloric load.

This in itself has been proven incorrect. Fats of ANY kind slow digestion, which by default increases satiety. It doesn't have to have vitamins to increase satiety. Therefore whether calories are "empty" or not, they will still have an effect on your satiety level. You don't have a study that says otherwise, but I have a textbook with excessive amounts of references to research that says you're wrong and have been wrong for probably 20+ years. If I have to take the book out and quote the damn research referenced, I will. What you're saying has no physiological bearing and has actually been proven quite wrong. You didn't address any of the points that I brought up, which have been PROVEN to be true on the most basic physiological level.

You do realize that there are many more things than just fiber that effect how hungry someone is, right? To be perfectly honest, I could eat a mound of hay that would be essentially 100% fiber and still be hungry. Would I feel a little bit better? Sure. To what degree would I feel better? I probably wouldn't feel much better at all. They did things like this in the depression. It didn't mean that they weren't still miserably hungry.

PS: Eat a mound of peanut butter. Then eat the same mass of fiber. Lemme know which one makes you feel better longer.
 
What part of go dig up from microfiche did you not get?
Also, I didn't say fiber was the only the way to increase satiation.
Notice I said "other factors inducing satiation".
I'm functioning on the understanding that 99.9% of the people on this board have less than a freshman chem major's level of understanding of the field.
It's been proven over and over in this thread.
Brikis is still demanding the dig on research that hasn't been done on a publication level for 40 years.
If he took HN&F 101 he would be doing it first hand and realize has idiotic he has made himself sound.
I don't feel threatened, I just don't want junk mail from this kid.
Judging by the way he's going right now I get the feeling he would creep up to my lab here on campus and try to get in a public pissing contest.
One last point, slowing digestion is exactly what we don't right now and not just for the constipation.
If you're argument is that fried chicken is going to help you lose weight faster than baked....then...man...AT on the whole is a lot dumber than I thought.
 
BTW Quantum mechanics != classical mechanics.
No one tries to use classical for black bodied radiation or the particle in a box problem.
Totally different fields.
De broglie and newton weren't thinking about anywhere near the same topics.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
What part of go dig up from microfiche did you not get?
Also, I didn't say fiber was the only the way to increase satiation.
Notice I said "other factors inducing satiation".
I'm functioning on the understanding that 99.9% of the people on this board have less than a freshman chem major's level of understanding of the field.
It's been proven over and over in this thread.
Brikis is still demanding the dig on research that hasn't been done on a publication level for 40 years.
If he took HN&F 101 he would be doing it first hand and realize has idiotic he has made himself sound.
I don't feel threatened, I just don't want junk mail from this kid.
Judging by the way he's going right now I get the feeling he would creep up to my lab here on campus and try to get in a public pissing contest.
One last point, slowing digestion is exactly what we don't right now and not just for the constipation.
If you're argument is that fried chicken is going to help you lose weight faster than baked....then...man...AT on the whole is a lot dumber than I thought.

First of all, you continue to use ad hominem as half of your argument so you should realize this is why people have stopped listening to you. Secondly, I've taken a year of full chemistry, a full year of organic chemistry, a quarter of biochemistry, a quarter of systemic physiology. You haven't exactly given a clear explanation of anything. You haven't said this happens, which causes this to happen, which is why this is this way. Your have just said "This is how it is. Deal with it."

Slowing digestion is not directly correlated with constipation. It slows processing at the duodenum in the small intestine, not necessarily the rate of the entire intestine, including the large intestine which contains most of the waste. My argument was never that fried chicken is going to help you lose weight faster. However, you haven't proven anything except that you like to do what every other mainstream polywog does - you say things are a certain way, believe things as they are, and don't actually discuss.

You get offended and blow things up into a personal vendetta, when it is actually supposed to be a valid question to ask. You clearly haven't shown that what Gary Taubes has said isn't true. Gary Taubes has a lot of research to back him up. There's also research that say that what he says is foggy. Nobody knows what the real, clear-cut answer is, but it would be nice to have a discussion instead of an immature banter on how stupid everybody is because they don't understand the gibberish coming out of your mouth. You started talking about fiber which is not even related to accelerated weight loss on a high fat diet. I don't even know where you thought you were going with trying to make that point. If you'd like to explain, I'm all ears, but if you're just going to say I'm a retard for not reading your mind then no one cares what you have to say, y'know? You get more with sugar than you do with vinegar.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
BTW Quantum mechanics != classical mechanics.
No one tries to use classical for black bodied radiation or the particle in a box problem.
Totally different fields.
De broglie and newton weren't thinking about anywhere near the same topics.

What the hell? Are you even trying to make a valid argument anymore? Because it just seems like you're yelling "I love lamp" for the hell of it now.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
It's been proven over and over in this thread.
What has?

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Brikis is still demanding the dig on research that hasn't been done on a publication level for 40 years.
I asked you to backup your claims. If the things you say are "so obvious", then it shouldn't be hard to do. For example, I asked you to backup your claim that brown rice was healthier than white rice because of the fiber. You seem to think this is some archaic topic solved years ago. However, by using google for 30 seconds, I found plenty of recent research on the topic. I'm sure with your vast research experience and access to incredible university archives you should be able to find plenty more.

"Why Brown Rice is Healthier"

This article covers many of the key points, including "Brown rice has 349% more fiber, 203% more Vitamin E, 185% more B6 and 219% more magnesium. With 19% more protein, brown rice is a more balanced food. White rice does include 21% more thiamin, B1, which is added in the enrichment process. It is noteworthy that brown rice has a low Glycemic Index, 55 compared to white rice?s 70, or even more with additional processing, such as parboiling, which posts an 87. For reference, a donut is 76. The development of diabetes later in life has been linked to the overconsumpution of foods with a high Glycemic Index."

"Brow Rice vs. White Rice"

Scientific research has taken its investigation into many different areas of the nutritional value of brown compared to "white" rice. These include, 1) Glycemic index, 2) nutrient value, 3) disease prevention, 4) Vitamin B12 levels, 5) digestibility of proteins, and 6) effect of rice fiber in the intestinal tract.

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
I don't feel threatened, I just don't want junk mail from this kid.
Judging by the way he's going right now I get the feeling he would creep up to my lab here on campus and try to get in a public pissing contest.
Like I said, you are one strange dude. Why the hell would I ever mail you or go on your campus (wherever the hell that is) or anything of the sort? You are clearly taking this far more personally than I am and your dellusions that I care enough about this issue or your opinion to somehow seek you out are laughable.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
BTW Quantum mechanics != classical mechanics.
No one tries to use classical for black bodied radiation or the particle in a box problem.
Totally different fields.
De broglie and newton weren't thinking about anywhere near the same topics.

Let's review. You seem to be of the impression that the ideas of diet, weight loss, obesity, etc are all completely resolved by the scientific community. You claim everyone is in agreement and that the things you are saying are so obvious, that no one does research any more. You compared this situation to Newtonian concepts as follows:

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Think about it, when is the last time you saw a study conducted to test the Newtonian concepts of physics.

Now, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but I've posted over a dozen studies in this thread on diet, weight loss, obesity, etc that were all conducted in the last 5 years or so. PLENTY of research is being done in this field, often overturning old ideas, and with the obesity epidemic growing, we should expect to see even more. More importantly, the scientific community is not in agreement and never has been on these topics. "Good Calories, Bad Calories" references dozens of studies that have been conducted over the last 100 years of both the "carbohydrate hypothesis", the "fat hypothesis" and all the other competing theories. You are free to argue in favor of one or the other, but to claim that the scientific community unanimously supports just one of these theories is utterly ignorant. Moreover, to shoot down even your stupid analogy with Newtonian physics, I said:

Originally posted by: brikis98
Except for all those pesky theories that challenge Newtonian physics, such as relativity, special relativity, quantum theory and so on.

Since you clearly struggled to understand the analogy, I'll spell it out for you. Even some of the concepts of Newtonian phsycis, which we've relied on for centuries, have been challenged and shown to be inaccurate depending on the conditions (such as nearing the speed of light). If something as seemingly unshakable as the "laws" of physics are occasionally wrong, you shouldn't be surprised to find that your archaic ideas of diet might be wrong too.
 
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
BTW Quantum mechanics != classical mechanics.
No one tries to use classical for black bodied radiation or the particle in a box problem.
Totally different fields.
De broglie and newton weren't thinking about anywhere near the same topics.

What the hell? Are you even trying to make a valid argument anymore? Because it just seems like you're yelling "I love lamp" for the hell of it now.

Obviously you've never taken physical chemistry....
 
Originally posted by: brikis98
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
BTW Quantum mechanics != classical mechanics.
No one tries to use classical for black bodied radiation or the particle in a box problem.
Totally different fields.
De broglie and newton weren't thinking about anywhere near the same topics.

Let's review. You seem to be of the impression that the ideas of diet, weight loss, obesity, etc are all completely resolved by the scientific community. You claim everyone is in agreement and that the things you are saying are so obvious, that no one does research any more. You compared this situation to Newtonian concepts as follows:

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Think about it, when is the last time you saw a study conducted to test the Newtonian concepts of physics.

Now, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but I've posted over a dozen studies in this thread on diet, weight loss, obesity, etc that were all conducted in the last 5 years or so. PLENTY of research is being done in this field, often overturning old ideas, and with the obesity epidemic growing, we should expect to see even more. More importantly, the scientific community is not in agreement and never has been on these topics. "Good Calories, Bad Calories" references dozens of studies that have been conducted over the last 100 years of both the "carbohydrate hypothesis", the "fat hypothesis" and all the other competing theories. You are free to argue in favor of one or the other, but to claim that the scientific community unanimously supports just one of these theories is utterly ignorant. Moreover, to shoot down even your stupid analogy with Newtonian physics, I said:

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Except for all those pesky theories that challenge Newtonian physics, such as relativity, special relativity, quantum theory and so on.

Since you clearly struggled to understand the analogy, I'll spell it out for you. Even some of the concepts of Newtonian phsycis, which we've relied on for centuries, have been challenged and shown to be inaccurate depending on the conditions (such as nearing the speed of light). If something as seemingly unshakable as the "laws" of physics are occasionally wrong, you shouldn't be surprised to find that your archaic ideas of diet might be wrong too.

Just so you know this:

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Except for all those pesky theories that challenge Newtonian physics, such as relativity, special relativity, quantum theory and so on.

Yeah...misquote there pal...

what it should have said was:

Originally posted by: brikis98
Except for all those pesky theories that challenge Newtonian physics, such as relativity, special relativity, quantum theory and so on.

You just quoted yourself.....and went on to say the quote showed your lack of understanding.....irony?
 
Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
What part of go dig up from microfiche did you not get?
Also, I didn't say fiber was the only the way to increase satiation.
Notice I said "other factors inducing satiation".
I'm functioning on the understanding that 99.9% of the people on this board have less than a freshman chem major's level of understanding of the field.
It's been proven over and over in this thread.
Brikis is still demanding the dig on research that hasn't been done on a publication level for 40 years.
If he took HN&F 101 he would be doing it first hand and realize has idiotic he has made himself sound.
I don't feel threatened, I just don't want junk mail from this kid.
Judging by the way he's going right now I get the feeling he would creep up to my lab here on campus and try to get in a public pissing contest.
One last point, slowing digestion is exactly what we don't right now and not just for the constipation.
If you're argument is that fried chicken is going to help you lose weight faster than baked....then...man...AT on the whole is a lot dumber than I thought.

First of all, you continue to use ad hominem as half of your argument so you should realize this is why people have stopped listening to you. Secondly, I've taken a year of full chemistry, a full year of organic chemistry, a quarter of biochemistry, a quarter of systemic physiology. You haven't exactly given a clear explanation of anything. You haven't said this happens, which causes this to happen, which is why this is this way. Your have just said "This is how it is. Deal with it."

Slowing digestion is not directly correlated with constipation. It slows processing at the duodenum in the small intestine, not necessarily the rate of the entire intestine, including the large intestine which contains most of the waste. My argument was never that fried chicken is going to help you lose weight faster. However, you haven't proven anything except that you like to do what every other mainstream polywog does - you say things are a certain way, believe things as they are, and don't actually discuss.

You get offended and blow things up into a personal vendetta, when it is actually supposed to be a valid question to ask. You clearly haven't shown that what Gary Taubes has said isn't true. Gary Taubes has a lot of research to back him up. There's also research that say that what he says is foggy. Nobody knows what the real, clear-cut answer is, but it would be nice to have a discussion instead of an immature banter on how stupid everybody is because they don't understand the gibberish coming out of your mouth. You started talking about fiber which is not even related to accelerated weight loss on a high fat diet. I don't even know where you thought you were going with trying to make that point. If you'd like to explain, I'm all ears, but if you're just going to say I'm a retard for not reading your mind then no one cares what you have to say, y'know? You get more with sugar than you do with vinegar.

I repeat, this is not biochemistry 8xx.
I am not a guest lecturer to detail regulatory mechanisms of the human system.
People spend years getting degrees on these topics, there is no way a few posts will flick the light switch on for you or anyone else.
You are reading journal articles in the same way you read the news, which only leads to negative outcomes.
Even peer reviewed articles in credible journals can have mistakes.
The golden standard for the weight of an argument is the amount in which it is cited (in a positive manner, getting blasted by the entire scientific community ala Atkins doesn't get you very far).
Now if you have any decent questions, I can try my best to give a conscience answer for what you may wish to discuss, but keep in mind, stupid questions will get stupid answers.
A good question would be, what is the main pathway in which insulin levels are regulated.
I would point towards PFK2 and levels of F2,6BP.
If you say that sounds like jibberish, I may just tell you to read a book.
 
I clearly understand what you're saying. I didn't ask about insulin, did I? What if insulin isn't even in the picture? What if just protein and fats are utilized? How does that affect your argument, which has focused solely on the mechanism of one hormone?
 
Diabetes and obesity have central to the conversation.
To negate insulin/glucagon would just be an immense mistake.
If you want to talk about beta oxidation I'm more than willing.
Just don't ask for a 3 year old article on a mechanism that's been known/accepted for decades for the aforementioned reasons.
 
Here, I'll toss you guys a bone to make it a little less one sided.

Why not present the argument that one of the downstream intermediates of beta oxidation is an inhibitor of PFK2?
Why not question if there is some physical characteristic that is the driving force of your glycemic index you like to reference so much.
Perhaps it is related to some structural conformation that inhibits PFK1 or some other relevant enzyme.
Do you see a pattern here?

Being intentionally vague may get a single publication our of curiosity, but a hypothesis with some direct causal claim can result in a paradigm shift.
I'm not claiming everything is known about these processes.
Simply, the backbone is laid out and it is more a question of regulation.
So if you can present some questions that about the unknown, rather than a vague attack upon the known you might actually make some progress.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Just so you know this:

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Except for all those pesky theories that challenge Newtonian physics, such as relativity, special relativity, quantum theory and so on.

Yeah...misquote there pal...

what it should have said was:

Originally posted by: brikis98
Except for all those pesky theories that challenge Newtonian physics, such as relativity, special relativity, quantum theory and so on.

You just quoted yourself.....and went on to say the quote showed your lack of understanding.....irony?

So let me get this straight. I once again tear apart your pitiful attempt at an argument, and your response... is to make fun of me for a copy & paste error? Very classy.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Diabetes and obesity have central to the conversation.
To negate insulin/glucagon would just be an immense mistake.
If you want to talk about beta oxidation I'm more than willing.
Just don't ask for a 3 year old article on a mechanism that's been known/accepted for decades for the aforementioned reasons.

Ok, now you're not even arguing on the topic. You've taken a step back from why fat doesn't let you lose weight quicker to direct mechanisms. What you're doing is tooting your academic horn to try to act like what you have to say has merit. The research you're quoting isn't studying the different effects of carbs and fats on the body. I understand that you have to keep these hormones in mind, however you're specifying so much that you stop arguing your point and just go to summarize research that isn't quite related.

I could talk a great deal on how fat is metabolized through the lymph system and such. Would that really help prove my argument? No, that would just be a summary. It would be a helpful summary for those that don't know what's going on, but it definitely wouldn't help me prove my point as of yet. If I summarized that and specified research that actually explained the reason of how fat is metabolized effects the rate at which body fat is lost, then it would be valid. You need to put to two together.
 
Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
Now if you have any decent questions, I can try my best to give a conscience answer for what you may wish to discuss, but keep in mind, stupid questions will get stupid answers.

Since you're so willing to share your wisdom, I have some decent questions for you. Other than you simply having the opinion that the studies I've posted are wrong, do you have any actual proof? No, vaguely mentioning the name of an enzyme here and referring to fat oxidation there does NOT constitute proof. Studies that show the exact opposite results, for example, would constitute proof.

If you really want to prove us wrong, go through the studies I posted and show me what they did wrong. Just in case you forgot what studies I'm talking about, I've been kind enough to group all the links here:

1. The effect of a low-carbohydrate, ketogenic diet versus a low-glycemic index diet on glycemic control in type 2 diabetes mellitus
2. Weight Loss with a Low-Carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or Low-Fat Diet
3. Study Of Obese Diabetics Explains Why Low-carb Diets Produce Fast Results
4. Duke University Study Shows Low-Carb Diet More Effective Than Low-Fat Diet
5. Low-carbohydrate diet burns more excess liver fat than low-calorie diet, UT Southwestern study finds
6. Eat Fat to Lose Fat
7. Arguments in Favor of Ketogenic Diets
8. Metabolic Advantage of Low Carb Diets
9. "A calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of thermodynamics
10. Study: Low-Carb Has Metabolic Advantage Over Low Fat Diets
11. Amino Acids and Proteins for the Athlete
12. Harvard researcher finds dieters eat more, lose more on low-carb plan
13. Low Carb and Calories Revisited
14. Calorie Intake in Relation to Body Weight Changes in the Obese
15. Effect on body composition and other parameters in obese young men of carbohydrate level of reduction diet
16. Is a Calorie Really a Calorie? Metabolic Advantage of Low-Carbohydrate Diets

All these studies have one thing in common: they provide support for the carbohydrate hypothesis. If you're going to sit here and deny it, you'll have to explain how the studies above came to the results they did. We aren't talking about one study where one researcher made a mistake, misinterpretation or even flat out tweaked his results. I'm talking about more than a dozen studies that all support the same conclusion, plus a whole lot more in "Good Calories, Bad Calories".
 
One more interesting study:

Plant-animal subsistence ratios and macronutrient energy estimations in worldwide hunter-gatherer diets

* In this analysis, we incorporate the most recent ethnographic compilation of plant-to-animal economic subsistence patterns of hunter-gatherers to estimate likely dietary macronutrient intakes (% of energy) for environmentally diverse hunter-gatherer populations.
* Most (73%) of the worldwide hunter-gatherer societies derived >50% (>=56?65% of energy) of their subsistence from animal foods, whereas only 14% of these societies derived >50% (>=56?65% of energy) of their subsistence from gathered plant foods.
* The most plausible (values not exceeding the mean MRUS) percentages of total energy would be 19?35% for dietary protein, 22?40% for carbohydrate, and 28?58% for fat.

This review suggests that the diet of the paleolithic man included far more protein and fat and far fewer carbs than the diet of the typical American or, for that matter, of the diet recommended by the US government. The relatively small quantity of carbs (and of course, the total absence of processed carbs) in the diet of the paleolithic man lends some evolutionary basis for the carbohydrate hypothesis, as it's quite possible our bodies just did not evolve to be able to handle the enormous quantity of carbs that we now eat.
 
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/5/1/36
Participants were recruited from the community by newspaper advertisements. After telephone screening, potential participants were scheduled for a "screening visit" which included informed consent approved by the local institutional review board, a medical history, physical examination and laboratory tests.
Using a lay-press diet book and additional handouts, a registered dietitian instructed participants to restrict intake of dietary carbohydrate to fewer than 20 grams per day, without explicitly restricting caloric intake .

They took random obese people from the community, gave them a pamphlet and some instructions from a dietitian and then asked them very nicely to follow this at home.
This is not a controlled experiment.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/359/3/229

The Mediterranean-diet group consumed the largest amounts of dietary fiber and had the highest ratio of monounsaturated to saturated fat (P<0.05 for all comparisons among treatment groups).
The mean weight loss was 2.9 kg for the low-fat group, 4.4 kg for the Mediterranean-diet group, and 4.7 kg for the low-carbohydrate group (P<0.001 for the interaction between diet group and time).

Notice what I said before about them conveniently tweaking satiation factors.
The Mediterranean-diet packed the most fiber and was within a standard deviation of the group the people doing the study were trying to make look best.
The only issue I'm seeing here is the kinds of diet they are they using to represent the low fat diets as well as this once again being conducted by giving an outline to follow to the patients.
The only thing being proven here is that the Mediterranean-diet and low-carb diets are easier to follow the guidelines for than a low fat diet.

Are you seeing a pattern here?

Now, why don't you find a study that makes a causal biochemical claim.
You keep avoiding this and picking vague studies they claim that the variable out of the hundreds they adjust is the one responsible for the outcome.

You got a bit lucky in asking a stupid question (read these 15 papers in your free time and tell me detailed information why they are all junk, despite the fact that the very first you linked has a low impact factor) and getting any sort of an answer.

Once again, I repeat, find me an article that has a direct, biochemical claim, something along the lines of what I stated earlier.
Or you can keep trolling, but you'll be talking to yourself.


 
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