Praxis1452
Platinum Member
- Jan 31, 2006
- 2,197
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He WAS the one who started the monarch threads all over forums. The simple fact is noone else did anything of that sort so yes he did really start it. Many people had been screwed over by Monarch however he took it into his hands to do more about it.
At first I was suspicious of his motivations but when monarch finally got shut down I had to agree with him and he's doing the same type of act here. It's brutish at first but it worked with monarch...
The best Core 2 Duo chipsets are still Intel. NVIDIA finally has the 680 and 650, but there are not nearly enough boards out there with enough development and stability of Intel chipsets. Especially when you consider price.
Also, there are so many Intel chipsets and most of them have SLI support. SLI is quite old and the so are NVIDIA chipsets so they don't have full capability with Core 2 Duo. With C2D the only chipsets that could run it were Intel, at least at first.
Unless the manufacturers illegally put the SLI logo on the motherboards, then they should support SLI. And they still do, it is just that NVIDIA decided to disable them. I don't see a reason why NVIDIA would do this as they are cutting down on their own graphics card sales from people with non NVIDIA chipsets, and if people would go out for NVIDIA chipsets, there are not enough 680 and 650 chipsets out there.
They might as well take it a step further and require an NVIDIA chipset to run an NVIDIA card period. How is that different? And maybe change the Vista or even regular drivers to only run the 8800 series. So with vista you need a full price SLI motherboard, and a 8800 card. That would be good for NVIDIA right.
Maybe MS should start disabling Windows XP features requiring users to switch to Vista. I have no doubts that they will in some slow way. But NVIDIA already did this and they want more of your money.
NVIDIA has the best hardware right now, but that's no excuse for what they are doing, and I definitely want them to get a slap on the wrist or even a full on spanking. Along with Microsoft for the whole DX10 issue (which is not nearly as bad).
Also, there are so many Intel chipsets and most of them have SLI support. SLI is quite old and the so are NVIDIA chipsets so they don't have full capability with Core 2 Duo. With C2D the only chipsets that could run it were Intel, at least at first.
Unless the manufacturers illegally put the SLI logo on the motherboards, then they should support SLI. And they still do, it is just that NVIDIA decided to disable them. I don't see a reason why NVIDIA would do this as they are cutting down on their own graphics card sales from people with non NVIDIA chipsets, and if people would go out for NVIDIA chipsets, there are not enough 680 and 650 chipsets out there.
They might as well take it a step further and require an NVIDIA chipset to run an NVIDIA card period. How is that different? And maybe change the Vista or even regular drivers to only run the 8800 series. So with vista you need a full price SLI motherboard, and a 8800 card. That would be good for NVIDIA right.
Maybe MS should start disabling Windows XP features requiring users to switch to Vista. I have no doubts that they will in some slow way. But NVIDIA already did this and they want more of your money.
NVIDIA has the best hardware right now, but that's no excuse for what they are doing, and I definitely want them to get a slap on the wrist or even a full on spanking. Along with Microsoft for the whole DX10 issue (which is not nearly as bad).
- Sep 28, 2005
- 21,042
- 3,522
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Yeah i was gonna comment on that also. How is this illegal when Intel C2D's have to be run on 775 boards sepcifically? and AMD's run on M2 boards? In a sense there doing the same thing, we have to stick with a manufactors approved board to run the cpu, just like sli and xfire needing to run on there corresponding boards.
However, i think Voodoo should sue the hell out of nvidia for stealing there SLI. Hehe... well thats if 3dfx had rights on SLI. AFterall 3dfx was the first company to impliment SLI on video cards
However, NVidia doesn't own the PCI-e slot and ANY(PCI-e) video card can go into a PCI-e slot. An AM2 CPU cannot go into a 775 socket. I suppose in some respects the CPUs are worse (why not have a common socket for CPUs from both manufacturers??) since we really are locked into one CPU manufacturer. If it came down to a common socket for CPUs and Intel decided to lock out AMD CPUs from their own chipsets then you would have almost the same situation you have here and Intel would probably get their butts sued also, so why shouldn't NVidia?
I personally would prefer to see multi-GPU not dependent on chipsets. I mean Crossfire can run on 975/965, and ATIs own chipsets, and SLI can run on other chipsets with hacked drivers, so it's not any physical limitation. However, NVidia decided to increase sales of their chipset division. I actually prefer Intel chipsets myself and have never had issues with them. The NForce chipset I used had some issues and even the current 680 chipset had a SATA issue but was recently fixed with a BIOS update. I myself will avoid an NVidia chipset where possible.
Oh man... your really too much. First of all, get this threw your head... you didn't warn anyone about Monarch, everyone ALREADY knew everything you were saying. That?s the point man, you just sign up, and all of sudden you?re posting in your holier then thou tone things that WE ALL KNOW.
Your statement that "Anti-Trust" is as low as Viral Marketing, doesn't make any sense at all... I mean, it?s just confusing.
And as to you're statement that "You may not like my methods... your don't have to... but they are effective? that?s just ludicrous! Do you really think that you having any effect on anything sitting at home posting your melodramatic and misleading messages from your parent basement? Get real man!
Finally, your idea that nVidia and ATi/AMD are trying to screw anyone over by capturing profit with proprietary platforms is naive. Do you have inside access to their production/design costs? You need to do a bit more reading on anti-competitive regulation before you go off half cocked. Your arguments about Tying and Vendor lock-ins are highly subjective.
Your argument about SLi holds no water. You are upset because there are no new drivers to support SLi with vista, given your current hardware. In the picture you yourself posted, as to the requirements for SLi, it clearly states you must use WinXP. While not updating their drivers may be as you put it "... a deplorable act, and shows total disregard for their customers, and partners," however, it does not demonstrate anti-competitive behavior.
Your statement "NVIDIA has chosen to operate in a monopolistic fashion, and is sacrificing its partners? customer relationships for simple greed." is presented without any support data, to back it up. Without having their internal numbers, and significant market data, the statement is nothing but libel.
My suggestion Mr. Fox is that next time you buy something you do a little more research ahead of time, and buy it somewhere that will take a return if you end up not happy with your purchase. The idea that you are going to write letters to the DOJ and somehow force them to make nVidia write new software to support old products is silly. You might have a valid point that they should offer the new drivers, but that is a private claim you would have against nVidia, not an anti-trust claim.
Finally, at no point do you even suggest that nVidia and ATi/AMD have formed any sort of cartel, or made a collusive agreement. Without that, there is really no case for anti-trust. My guess is that you saw that nVidia and ATi/AMD both received subpoenas for documents dating back to the 1990s. You though, like you did with Monarch, hey here is something going down and I can jump online and pretend like I was the spear tip! Unfortunately for you, it is clear that you have almost no understanding of anti-trust regulation and so your attempts to jump into the lime light really just make you look silly.
Although your post missed the boat on what the DOJ is looking at, both nVidia and ATi/AMD, are being looked at for collusion dating back to the 1990s, but they are not being charged with anything, and most people, myself included, seem to think there is little behind the investigation.
Aside from that Mr. Fox, we are all waiting eagerly for you to bring to light the previously unknown fact that the real estate market isn't looking as good as it was five years ago!
Mr. Fox, this is starting to get annoying. And attacking someone's credability to cover up for your own lack of competance isn't an "effective way" to get your voice heard, either.
This thread deserves to be locked, just like it was at HardForums. :roll:
Nelsieus
You're asking him to backup common knowledge? Can you run SLi with a G80 and not be on an nVidia chipset?
The fact that nVidia is locking out features designated by the PCI-E standard has nothing to do with a buyers ability to research a product.
His "idea" of doing so isn't that silly. nVidia should *continue* to support SLi on other chipsets instead of lock-out the support in order to increase current product sales.
Is it likely it will happen? Who knows, probably not. Does it makes sense and *should* it happen? Yes, why not? Saying that they *should* do so isn't silly.
The driver situation isn't, I think, an anti-trust claim. I believe the conversation got derailed there.
The anti-trust violation is the vendor lock-out of an industry standard.
Okay, so you're angry that someone is acting like they were the first to do something about it. Maybe they weren't and maybe they were, that's not the point - and if you're more upset about that than the actual subject than I'd have to wonder what you care about more, a computer or another poster.
I think Mr. Fox has handled himself pretty professionally. He hasn't thrown back useless insults, just claimed that if jakedeez (or anyone else) doesn't have anything relevant to discuss and wants to concentrate on attacking him they can do so elsewhere.
jakedeez is only aiming at the poster and not the material.
Why? Are we not still talking about the subject itself - aside from jakedeez's posts? This thread has been nothing but informative to me and if these companies - both ATi and nVidia - are using methods that subtract from the enthusiasts then we should know.
I think this is just ruffling a few feathers on certain posters for unknown, and completely illogical, reasons. Something isn't right here, and an investigation isn't going to hurt anything.
It just seems strange that a company whose primary goal was to compete with nVidia is practicing something that would hinder that goal - Click
Why would ATi do that if it could hurt their sales? I mean, what Nvidia has done is make the most powerful graphics card and then locked out the ability to use two of those graphics cards with any chipset but theirs - making an enthusiast who wants the best buy three Nvidia products. Even if ATi had the most powerful graphics card out, one could use CrossFire with a chipset that wasn't theirs and possibly lose money by allowing that. It just doesn't make any sense.
In addition, you have to think about the AMD/ATi merger. AMD is more or less ATi now and with *Intel* supporting *AMD* on their chipsets (or vica versa) there would be more of a reason for CrossFire to be limited to only AMD/ATi chipsets, not the other way around.
In any case, I can see the reason for Mr. Fox's address and if it ever progresses to a deeper investigation than so be it - if nVidia is within their right then nothing will change. I just don't see why some think an investigation is going to hurt them. Unless of course Nvidia is more than just hardware manufacturer to them.
The Thread at Hard OCP was locked because of the arguements between other members that did not play well with others... Kyle PM'ed me apologizing about that.
Oh and by the way... your move to the mods... showed your true nature.
"The Pig.... she no fly so straight" Tony Montana - Scarface
apoppin
Lifer
i'm sure it IS annoying to AEG/nvidia that the truth of the matter is getting coverage
i'm quite sure they are counterattacking on the forums with character assasinations and thread derailment attempts - as they are taught to do and as we witnessed first hand with Rollo, the trollmaster.
i'm quite sure they'd like this thread locked
Mr Fox, perhaps you should present this info to theConsumerist ... they investigated ... rather successfully the nvidia/aeg Viral marketing that plagued/s us here and got it some real news coverage.
The crux of my issue with this thread, and I don't want to see it locked, is that it is misleading. I completely agree with the spirit of what Mr. Fox is saying, i.e., that nVidia is guilty of bad customer service and maybe guilty also of dealing in bad faith with their vendors and consumers. My point is that that it isn't an antitrust issue. Their actions have been competitive. That is what I mean when I say they are not acting as a monopolist by offering more features by pairing their graphics technology with their core logic! There maybe a claim against nVidia for some or all of the issues that have been posted in this thread, but it is a civil claim, not an anti-trust claim. That nVidia and ATi may have in the past restrict output in an oligopolistic collusion is possible. That is an anti-trust claim - the other is not. Rather then getting customers to discuss practical ideas, such as petitions, witting letters, and any number of other options, people like Mr. Fox spend 10 minutes reading about anti-trust on wikipedia and go off half cocked.
That, in conjunction to his responses to criticisms, simply attempting to confuse the point by piously claiming that "my biases are obvious" - sounding all the world as if he is on a holy crusade, make me think more and more that he is just trying to jump in and seek attention. He saw the obvious, monarch as having problems, and he jumps in claiming his crusade a success. He reads something about AMD/ATi and nVidia getting subpoenas from the FTC or DOJ, and he looks them up, sees "anti-trust", looks that up on wikipedia, and miss-interprets what it means, and boom... I am leading the charge! Check out the letters I sent! I don't know if they are still posted in the thread, but the DOJ's response was to basically blow him off. Yet he comes here atop his horse ready to go...
I agree, and investigation is fine, but to me, it seems unnecessary. The issues at hand are prima facie; there is not need for it. Pursue the issue... but it is not anti-trust.
What is it then?
Antitrust
This particular issue alone violates two prohibited anti-competitive behaviors:
They are when the industry standard allowing them to do that is violated.
A forum thread such as this is a perfect place to discuss "practical ideas, petitions, and letters, etc." but it is kept from that when posters such as yourself go attacking other members and claiming they don't know what antitrust means.
An "oligopolistic collusion" is one type of antitrust violation. Wikipedia defines it as "Price Fixing" in the link I gave but that doesn't mean it's the only type. The examples I've given above discuss other antitrust behaviors.
So you don't like how he responds to your criticisms and then say that they way he is doing so is "attempting to confuse the point"? He told you to take it outside, PM him or use another form of communication if you really wanted to discuss him. He's made it clear that this thread is intended for the issue, not himself.
So what? The fact that he is delusional and thinks he brought down Monarch isn't something to get yourself upset about. The point is people know about Monarch's poor service.
How has he misinterpreted what antitrust means? Certain nVidia products being restricted to SLi on their chipsets while other nVidia products don't share the same restriction smells illegal. Especially when the limiting factor is a driver.
Isn't that what you wanted him to do?: "Rather then getting customers to discuss practical ideas, such as petitions, witting letters, and any number of other options..."
So you work for the DoJ? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you - afterall, who knows? You could be right - that claim is nothing more than wishful thinking.
And does locking out features that would otherwise work just for wallet-bleeding unnecessary?
I agree. There is no need for a vendor to disable technology for the sake of cornering the market.
Then what is it?
apoppin
Lifer
clearly it is about anti trust --and especially anti competitive
whether this possible case has merit - or not - will depend on this *issue*
whether this possible case has merit - or not - will depend on this *issue*
Originally posted by: aigomorla
Yeah i was gonna comment on that also. How is this illegal when Intel C2D's have to be run on 775 boards sepcifically? and AMD's run on M2 boards? In a sense there doing the same thing, we have to stick with a manufactors approved board to run the cpu, just like sli and xfire needing to run on there corresponding boards.
However, i think Voodoo should sue the hell out of nvidia for stealing there SLI. Hehe... well thats if 3dfx had rights on SLI. AFterall 3dfx was the first company to impliment SLI on video cards
It is not quite what NVIDIA did. Chipsets a physical and cannot be overcome. You can't run Xeons in 775 motherboards can your or Opterons on 939 sockets, even though they are quite close. You also can't run PCI-E cards in AGP slots right.
What NVIDIA did is if your C2D running just fine on a non Intel chipset would stop running with new drivers. Or maybe your buy a new C2D that does not work at like the old one did. There is no point of it not working, and not only NVIDIA not support SLI, they specifically disable it and make it very hard to enable it.
TO match that, Intel would need to sabotage their CPUs to fry NVIDIA motherboards to ensure you could not make them work.
It'd be like if I sued Microsoft because my Xbox 360 game couldn't run on my PS3. :roll:
That's how much legitimacy this complaint has.
Nelsieus
That's how much legitimacy this complaint has.
Nelsieus
Your "Crisis Management" skills are lacking ...
As much as you attempt to discredit others you need to understand the nuances to doing it with skill and style...
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