Going back to green: a rant

[Seero]

So I have this card that is marketed for multiple monitors and being overclocker friendly, and it has a bug that won't allow both at the same time. Seriously?

Fermi, you'd better live up to the hype because I am jumping ship asap.

Sorry if i sounded like a troll, but are you saying that multi-display don't work when you OC your card? And you will whether live with the problems you have described if Fermi don't live up to hype?

I guess my question is, what Fermi needs to be for you to ditch your 5870? That is, what price, performance, power consumption, stability and temp are you expecting?

 

[Acanthus]

As someone who bought a lot of Nv cards in the past, i have recently changed to a 4890 and had no issues at all in all of the games i play.

Geforce 256
Geforce 2 GTS
Geforce 3 Ti500
Geforce 4 Ti4200
Geforce FX5600
Geforce 6800GT
Geforce 8800GT
Geforce 9600GT
ATi Radeon 4890 1GB

The only thing that I could possibly complain about is CCC being hard to navigate.

 

[happy medium]

As someone who bought a lot of Nv cards in the past, i have recently changed to a 4890 and had no issues at all in all of the games i play.

Geforce 256
Geforce 2 GTS
Geforce 3 Ti500
Geforce 4 Ti4200
Geforce FX5600
Geforce 6800GT
Geforce 8800GT
Geforce 9600GT
ATi Radeon 4890 1GB

The only thing that I could possibly complain about is CCC being hard to navigate.

I think most of us who are complaining, are using the 5xxx series.

 

[Munky]

LOL, CCC a pile of junk? It certainly reminds of the other pile of junk, the "new and improved" Nvidia control panel.

 

[yacoub]

LOL, CCC a pile of junk? It certainly reminds of the other pile of junk, the "new and improved" Nvidia control panel.

Maybe the same group of monkeys coded it.
Seriously, what an unergonomic kludgy UI. There is definitely some irony that it is graphics card makers who can't seem to get a decent UI for their software. :biggrin:

 

[digitaldurandal]

Guys, stop being naive


I used only NV for 4 years til this summer when I bought a 4890. Guess what, no issues at all. If you feel like generalizing a company because of a few isolated issues -you- had, which often can be fixed by properly removing previous drivers, go ahead. I will meanwhile be enjoying having the luxury of being able to choose between cards from both companies rather than being stuck with only NV because "omg I didn't clear out the old drivers properly and now sometimes theres small bugs ATI sucks"



If you seriously think there's much of a difference between ATI and NV you're looking through some very dark glasses

The issue of fresh install keeps coming up, I am working with a fresh installation which is why I mentioned loading my saved game from my previous OS install.

Only ATi drivers have been here, there is no leftover residue from any other source.

 

[blanketyblank]

LOL, CCC a pile of junk? It certainly reminds of the other pile of junk, the "new and improved" Nvidia control panel.

Seriously. I keep old drivers on my laptop just so I can still use nvidia's old control panel. The one I used for my 8800 GTS 512 sucked, no profiles and it was annoying having to open the thing just to to change monitor resolution. I don't know if that's fixed now or there was some option I didn't know how to set, but it's one thing I preferred CCC for.

Also for those with nvidia cards did they ever bring back hotkeys? I like being able to set different profiles and changing back and forth via hotkey, but when the control panel changed I could never figure out how to do that.

 

[digitaldurandal]

being stuck with only NV because "omg I didn't clear out the old drivers properly and now sometimes theres small bugs ATI sucks"



If you seriously think there's much of a difference between ATI and NV you're looking through some very dark glasses

Well, you're certainly making some assumptions.

Try googling the issue before you project on me because you are a fanATic.

Sorry but if I buy a card marketing for multiple monitors and overclockability and the two things don't work together I am going to be annoyed. Especially when a new driver was released and no word of a fix is announced.

So to me what you have said is: "Blablabla I did not read your post and made some assumptions about your install. Blablabla I like ATi and who cares if you bought a $400 card for the reasons it was marketed and they don't work its the same everywhere. Lower your expectations"

Personally I don't think I am the one with the dark glasses.

 

[digitaldurandal]

Sorry if i sounded like a troll, but are you saying that multi-display don't work when you OC your card? And you will whether live with the problems you have described if Fermi don't live up to hype?

I guess my question is, what Fermi needs to be for you to ditch your 5870? That is, what price, performance, power consumption, stability and temp are you expecting?

I want the card to have the features they advertise and work out of the box.

I do not want to have to fudge around with my bios to overclock my brand new card especially when its not just flashing to a different card BIOS but actually editing an XML file filled with indescript items (poor coding imo) and crossing my fingers.

For me to ditch the 5870
Fermi will have drivers that work with it, I am not going to buy it and wait for a beta or hotfix.

Fermi can be hot while gaming but must idle at a reasonable level (the fix for the 5870 is to flash it and it runs 3d clocks always which isn't a good fix really.)

Fermi can be a medium noise level while gaming but must be a whisper when in 2d/idle.

Fermi must be at least as fast as my 5870 solution. I imagine it being faster, gtx 285 is nearly as fast in dx9 and only gets dominated by 10.1 and 11 titles with a few exceptions. Not to mention Nvidia has had quite a bit of extra time to work on the card. I will be disappointed if it doesn't beat my current card by at least a 5% margin in basically every relevant benchmark, in that case I may not bother - provided my current ATi headaches are fixed by then.

If I purchase a card that reads "WOW MULITPLE MONITORS, VOLTAGE ADJUSTABLE, EXTRA FREE PERFORMANCE!!" I just want to actually HAVE those features.

I really do not feel unreasonable.

 

[blanketyblank]

Well, you're certainly making some assumptions.

Try googling the issue before you project on me because you are a fanATic.

Sorry but if I buy a card marketing for multiple monitors and overclockability and the two things don't work together I am going to be annoyed. Especially when a new driver was released and no word of a fix is announced.

So to me what you have said is: "Blablabla I did not read your post and made some assumptions about your install. Blablabla I like ATi and who cares if you bought a $400 card for the reasons it was marketed and they don't work its the same everywhere. Lower your expectations"

Personally I don't think I am the one with the dark glasses.

You do realize 10.1 was a rushed release just so they could have something monthly right?
They even forgot to change the version number. Company employees even admit it's just a standard update to fix a few bugs. Your expectations are a bit too high if you think they'll address all the problems immediately especially when there are real bugs like the grey screen issue. Your issue is just going to get lower priority till the big things are fixed and whatever the new features in 10.2 and 10.3 are released.

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/3113/ati_catalyst_10_1_windows_7_driver_analysis/index.html

 

[Tempered81]

gtx 285 is nearly as fast in dx9 and only gets dominated by 10.1 and 11 titles with a few exceptions. .

Than a 5870? yeah. wtf are u smoking. Those few exceptions are EVERY game.... lol

 

[happy medium]

Some good reads...

ATI Confirms 5700, 5800 Problems; Promises Fix

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ATI-Grey-Screen-Fix-5870,9549.html

The fix only for 58xx series?

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ATI-Grey-Screen-Lines-Fix,9604.html

 

[digitaldurandal]

You do realize 10.1 was a rushed release just so they could have something monthly right?
They even forgot to change the version number. Company employees even admit it's just a standard update to fix a few bugs. Your expectations are a bit too high if you think they'll address all the problems immediately especially when there are real bugs like the grey screen issue. Your issue is just going to get lower priority till the big things are fixed and whatever the new features in 10.2 and 10.3 are released.

http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/3113/ati_catalyst_10_1_windows_7_driver_analysis/index.html

And you feel that this is okay? Because this company released cards with a multitude of bugs and rushed their driver, I should be okay with it?

Or are you simply saying why it didn't help?

 

[digitaldurandal]

Some good reads...

ATI Confirms 5700, 5800 Problems; Promises Fix

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ATI-Grey-Screen-Fix-5870,9549.html

The fix only for 58xx series?

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ATI-Grey-Screen-Lines-Fix,9604.html

I am at least lucky enough not to be dealing with the Grey screen issue, my bug is not addressed specifically by ATi anywhere that I can find but is mentioned by probably 100s of posts.

Sapphire supposedly released a BIOS that fixed my bug for some people with VaporX versions but some are still reporting the same issues with it.

 

[digitaldurandal]

Than a 5870? yeah. wtf are u smoking. Those few exceptions are EVERY game.... lol

I look again and will conceide that you are right, I was remembering the 5850 benchmark perhaps. Still most of my settings have remained the same from 285 -> 5870. I perhaps could have pushed more AA in batman, but it isnt supported well. Maybe in the final release of BFBC2 I will finally be able to take advantage of the cards speed. I just hope by that time that I will be able to up my clocks.

 

[blanketyblank]

And you feel that this is okay? Because this company released cards with a multitude of bugs and rushed their driver, I should be okay with it?

Or are you simply saying why it didn't help?

I'm trying to say you shouldn't fault them for having monthly driver updates and their latest one not dealing with your issue which is comparatively minor. I'm all for ranting about bugs, but your argument was turning a positive thing(monthly updates) into something negative just because in one update the company hasn't made the card perfect.

 

[digitaldurandal]

I'm trying to say you shouldn't fault them for having monthly driver updates and their latest one not dealing with your issue which is comparatively minor. I'm all for ranting about bugs, but your argument was turning a positive thing(monthly updates) into something negative just because in one update the company hasn't made the card perfect.

So you're okay with purchasing an item that advertises two things on the box, only to find they do not work?

How long is too long to wait for a fix, in your opinion? When will it come down to them being a crap company with poor QA and driver teams and not just my impatience?

Personally I like to purchase something and have it work immediately. I do not like to buy games that I have to wait for 100 patches, and I certainly do not like to buy hardware that needs one.

 

[yh125d]

Well, you're certainly making some assumptions.

Try googling the issue before you project on me because you are a fanATic.

Sorry but if I buy a card marketing for multiple monitors and overclockability and the two things don't work together I am going to be annoyed. Especially when a new driver was released and no word of a fix is announced.

So to me what you have said is: "Blablabla I did not read your post and made some assumptions about your install. Blablabla I like ATi and who cares if you bought a $400 card for the reasons it was marketed and they don't work its the same everywhere. Lower your expectations"

Personally I don't think I am the one with the dark glasses.

You make a rant thread basically about how crappy ATI is and I'M the fanboy?


ATI doesn't market cards as being higly OCable, vendors do. You're projecting your beef with the card vendor onto ATI. Everyone knows C2D and i7's always OC a ton right? Well guess what, some didn't OC for shit. Does intel make crap CPUs now?


I had almost an identical dual monitor issue that you're having. On my 9800GT. And what was it, forceware 185s or 188s i think, that completely FUBAR'd pretty much everything for so many people? Yeah, NV is so much better on bugs/drivers


I'm not saying NV is any worse than ATI, just syaing they're not any better. And I've owned much more NV hardware than ATI, and prefer them, so you can back off the fanboy claims.

 

[waffleironhead]

your issues in order
1) no image to screen. Minor issue and I would imagine is low on the fix list for ati right now.
2) batman AA has been beat to death in this forum and across the web, you ignoracne of the issue is surprising to say the least
3) overclocking is not guaranteed.

Have you reported these issues to the driver team at amd?

 

[digitaldurandal]

You make a rant thread basically about how crappy ATI is and I'M the fanboy?


ATI doesn't market cards as being higly OCable, vendors do. You're projecting your beef with the card vendor onto ATI. Everyone knows C2D and i7's always OC a ton right? Well guess what, some didn't OC for shit. Does intel make crap CPUs now?


I had almost an identical dual monitor issue that you're having. On my 9800GT. And what was it, forceware 185s or 188s i think, that completely FUBAR'd pretty much everything for so many people? Yeah, NV is so much better on bugs/drivers


I'm not saying NV is any worse than ATI, just syaing they're not any better. And I've owned much more NV hardware than ATI, and prefer them, so you can back off the fanboy claims.

If the i7 box said highly overclockable, runs multiple threads.

And then both didn't work. Ya I would say they were a crap company.

I don't care about whether the vendor or the manufacturer/license holder/ designer said it. It is written on my box. Also ATi HAS marketed the feature. It was available on some of the reference boards they sent out to benchmark sites so they could see the feature.

It is supposed to be a feature of the card. It does not exist at this point. Unlike some strange bug in an Nv driver. There is NO driver to fix it. I cannot choose an older driver to fix it, I cannot choose a beta driver to fix it. It is simply BORKED.

I never had any issues with multiple monitors on my Nvidia setup personally, maybe it was after the 185s you mention so I cannot comment as to that. The only issue I had with them was with SLI issues in new games, or ones not properly set to take advantage of it. And you know what - I decided not to go multigpu again.

Its not as if I am picking on ATi here. Lets face reality. I bought a $400 card that does NOT live up to claims that are written on the box.

Yes I made a rant thread, and also titled it appropriately. You knew what was going to be in here from the beginning. However so many of you come in here and make assumptions pointing the finger at user error without reading or doing any research it is laughable fanboism or incompetence; take your pick.

My install is clean, and a quick google search will show you that there is no good solution (and this was mentioned in the OP but commented about several times.) You guys make me feel like I posted on Tom's for jeebus sake.

 

[Seero]

I want the card to have the features they advertise and work out of the box.

5870 works on multi-display with new drivers on default clock/voltage settings. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I do not want to have to fudge around with my bios to overclock my brand new card especially when its not just flashing to a different card BIOS but actually editing an XML file filled with indescript items (poor coding imo) and crossing my fingers.

The key word is overclock. The default OC ui is for laymen, which only does basic stuffs. By basic, i mean 1 display, and stock cooling. Anything above that requires additional work, and researching is just the beginning. From pencil mod to lapping your GPU against sandpaper with water. Warranty is like the wrapping paper of the box as soon as you decided to OC.

For me to ditch the 5870
Fermi will have drivers that work with it, I am not going to buy it and wait for a beta or hotfix.

First indication of why Fermi isn't for you. A complete redesign from GT200 means a lot of hotfixes after it releases.

Fermi can be hot while gaming but must idle at a reasonable level (the fix for the 5870 is to flash it and it runs 3d clocks always which isn't a good fix really.)

What is reasonable level to you?

Fermi can be a medium noise level while gaming but must be a whisper when in 2d/idle.

second indication of why Fermi isn't for you. Unless there is no fan, 2dba/idle isn't possible.

Fermi must be at least as fast as my 5870 solution. I imagine it being faster, gtx 285 is nearly as fast in dx9 and only gets dominated by 10.1 and 11 titles with a few exceptions. Not to mention Nvidia has had quite a bit of extra time to work on the card. I will be disappointed if it doesn't beat my current card by at least a 5% margin in basically every relevant benchmark, in that case I may not bother - provided my current ATi headaches are fixed by then.

I understand it as "Fermi must beat 5870 by at least 5% on every single performance tests." Fair enough as you already have a 5870.

If I purchase a card that reads "WOW MULITPLE MONITORS, VOLTAGE ADJUSTABLE, EXTRA FREE PERFORMANCE!!" I just want to actually HAVE those features.

I really do not feel unreasonable.

Clock/voltage adjustment works, but with no guaranty that it will be stable under any configurations. Otherwise, they may as well set a higher default clock to begin with. For users with 1 display, the OC works fine. For multi-display, people will need to work on other variables as well as using the UI. Back then, to overclock something, you need to ...

If I understand you correctly. All you need to do is to disable the power saving feature when OC to stop 2nd display from flickering. As a laymen, disabling all power saving features is the number one thing to do when it comes to OC as the default clock/voltage are set after lots of testing and QA.

You are not being unreasonable, you simply stated out the problems that you have encountered. Unfortunately, I don't think your issue is going to be fixed anytime soon as you have mentioned that some others are experiencing grey screen on default settings. If you are mad due to the technical issues for 5870, then you really should not be thinking about Fermi, as your frustration scales with the amount of money you pay.

If I remember correctly, 280 had a fan speed issue at release too, which causes the card to overheat for some user. Video cards are like that.

 

[thilanliyan]

All the people who worked to convince us that ATI is actually fine these days were wrong. Perhaps they've simply not had the better experience of running an NVidia card and just don't know better.

The only driver issues I've had, and I haven't had many showstoppers, were with nVidia cards. The two that immediately spring to my mind was that Splinter Cell Double Agent wasn't working with G80 cards initially (I bought a 8800GTS 640 on launch day) and I was also getting the driver stopped errors with certain versions of Forceware again with the GTS 640. I've had a 9600XT, X800XL, X800GTO2, X1800XL, and now a 4870 and have not had major issues like I had with the 8800GTS 640. You should of course trust your own experience but just know that there are others with the exact opposite experience as you.

Despite my bad experience with the 8800GTS 640, I still bought a 8800GT and really liked the card. I don't think people should be so quick to swear off one brand of card but to each their own. No need to flash a BIOS and risk voiding the warranty which is why I never do it.

Oh and about the overclocking...use ATI Tray Tools instead (I don't even install CCC anymore). You can set your own custom under/over clock and undervolt and have it switch between the 2 automatically while gaming.

 

[blanketyblank]

So you're okay with purchasing an item that advertises two things on the box, only to find they do not work?

How long is too long to wait for a fix, in your opinion? When will it come down to them being a crap company with poor QA and driver teams and not just my impatience?

Personally I like to purchase something and have it work immediately. I do not like to buy games that I have to wait for 100 patches, and I certainly do not like to buy hardware that needs one.

Neither do I, I'm just realistic. Few things are released now a days without problems especially since there are many things outside of the manufacturer's immediate control and knowledge. The best you can hope for is a good process for addressing your concerns.

The fact that ATI has acknowledged the problem with the grey screens and is working on a solution shows me it has what looks like a good process. At the very least it's a much better process than Toyota which only now lets me know my 2007 camry is being recalled for having a potentially dangerous problem. A more relevant example is nvidia took quite a while to acknowledge its GPU had heating problems, and even after the announcment laptop manufacturers were slow or offered an extended warranty to only select models.

That being said, I'd say it's too long to wait once they've exceeded a reasonable period of time for a fix once they've been notified of the problem. You'll notice "reasonable" is one of those lawyer words subject to interpretation and dependin on the facts of the case, but basically I mean about a month( or however long it usually takes for them to diagnose and program a fix) from the time when they've resolved the bigger issues and should be working on it.

 

[solofly]

I think most of us who are complaining, are using the 5xxx series.

I'm not complaining, otherwise I would go back to that POS nvidia... (no grey lines no nothing)

 

[HendrixFan]

Take a look at the following article

http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/43383-amd-eats-into-nvidia-intel-graphics-market-share

So if you combine information from your graph and from tgdaily article it looks like ATI actually caused twice as many issues as nVidia on per card basis...

I'm not sure you are looking at the data correctly. The article you linked to shows a 29% market share for Nvidia and an 18% market share for ATI. The pie chart shows a 29% cause rate for Nvidia and a 9% cause rate for ATI.

Now, there are plenty of other variables that can influence this data (Vista vs Win7 vs WinXP, the 'unknown' portion leaning towards one company over another, a larger percentage of users pushing the card to the limits and causing instability which certainly explains Intel's marketshare versus cause rate, users disabling crash logging, etc) but strictly looking at the data presented here we see:

29% market share for Nvidia and 29% cause rate
18% market share for ATI and a 9% cause rate.