First of all if one does not believe in God, then using the excuse that God allows people to suffer is invalid. If God does not exist, then he cant allow anything to happen. Your argument is invalid.
How do you know it is not the will of the devil that causes suffering?
Also there is a thing called moral agency. This premise is that we have the ability to decide to act for ourselves. Sometimes we hurt ourselves or others by our own actions. Also sometimes God seems to allow bad things to happen to people. Maybe they just happen to be in the wrong place.
Is nature pure circumstance or is it acutally controlled by God. Good Question. However, it could be controlled by God. Maybe God is testing us to see if we can get through the test. Take Katrina for example. The smart well-informed people found a way to leave.
How do you know it is not the will of the devil that causes suffering?
Also there is a thing called moral agency. This premise is that we have the ability to decide to act for ourselves. Sometimes we hurt ourselves or others by our own actions. Also sometimes God seems to allow bad things to happen to people. Maybe they just happen to be in the wrong place.
Is nature pure circumstance or is it acutally controlled by God. Good Question. However, it could be controlled by God. Maybe God is testing us to see if we can get through the test. Take Katrina for example. The smart well-informed people found a way to leave.
Well since nobody knows anything I feel free to add to this:
It's all about vibrations and the horse the cart and the coachmen and the chakras they begin to represent.
As you go up the eight note scale of the divine harmony of 7 you come to two places where there is a break, after the second and, is it the 5th note, where energy or a shock of some kind has to enter in to go up. These are the flats in the music scale. The horse and the cart and the driver represent the emotional the physical and the mental who must all function and harmonize together to move forward and go, and to carry the fourth passenger on his way. All of this requires energy.
OK so we know that Will can only happen in the now. You can't make things happen yesterday or tomorrow. You can only act now. How does consciousness enter the now in order to act. No fair being a machine and following a program that is not really free. How do you fully enter the now where there is nothing else. The body must be under control, right, and no thought can enter the mind. No feeling of yesterday can enter the emotional center and drag thought away. You must not be there at all if you want to enter the now because what you call you is always of the past. It is a memory of something you were. You have to climb the chakras to the seventh high and enter eternal bliss. There time stops and you BECOME. ALL THAT IS IS YOU AND ALL THAT HAPPENS HAPPENS BY YOUR WILL.
All you need is a massive supply of energy to get you over the two bumps in the road to take the passenger to his destination.
Oh goodness, I think the horse got out of the barn.
It's all about vibrations and the horse the cart and the coachmen and the chakras they begin to represent.
As you go up the eight note scale of the divine harmony of 7 you come to two places where there is a break, after the second and, is it the 5th note, where energy or a shock of some kind has to enter in to go up. These are the flats in the music scale. The horse and the cart and the driver represent the emotional the physical and the mental who must all function and harmonize together to move forward and go, and to carry the fourth passenger on his way. All of this requires energy.
OK so we know that Will can only happen in the now. You can't make things happen yesterday or tomorrow. You can only act now. How does consciousness enter the now in order to act. No fair being a machine and following a program that is not really free. How do you fully enter the now where there is nothing else. The body must be under control, right, and no thought can enter the mind. No feeling of yesterday can enter the emotional center and drag thought away. You must not be there at all if you want to enter the now because what you call you is always of the past. It is a memory of something you were. You have to climb the chakras to the seventh high and enter eternal bliss. There time stops and you BECOME. ALL THAT IS IS YOU AND ALL THAT HAPPENS HAPPENS BY YOUR WILL.
All you need is a massive supply of energy to get you over the two bumps in the road to take the passenger to his destination.
Oh goodness, I think the horse got out of the barn.
This makes no sense. Nobody here is using both arguments simultaneously. I don't believe in God, but I can still point out the fallacy behind the claim that if God exists, then he is a great being.
How do you know the devil exists? Why is your God the one that exists while those of other religions are fake? How do you know only one god exists?
Also there is a thing called moral agency. This premise is that we have the ability to decide to act for ourselves. Sometimes we hurt ourselves or others by our own actions. Also sometimes God seems to allow bad things to happen to people. Maybe they just happen to be in the wrong place.
I wasn't aware that there is any evidence pointing to the idea that God, as opposed to weather patterns, caused Hurricane Katrina.
RichardE,
I'll make an attempt to answer your question.
It's not God's will to make us suffer. However, it is God's will to allow us to suffer. We have free will, and sometimes bad things happen regardless of what we do. He didn't put us on this planet to make sure we lived every day in the peace and harmony. As the saying goes "There is no heaven without a hell." We have to endure suffering to see the greatness of heaven.
Why would God allow bad things to happen if he is loving? Hes our father. Would you as a father, purposely let your kid experience something bad in order for them to learn a lesson in life? The answer is probably yes. If your kid comes up to you and says "Gimme Ice cream!!!" and you say "No". They stomp and shout and say "I'm gonna run away you meanie!" Are you going to say "Ok, since you are upset, I'll give you Ice Cream." just to give them what they want? No you say "Ok run away, and you will realize the world isn't so peachy. You'll be back later. When you're hungry." Then you let them run away for the evening. They will be back and they are all the wiser.
But in order to answer about Stem Cells, I need to give you background. Christianity has a spectrum.
God is on one side, and he is loving. Sometimes that love means tough love.
Satan is on the other side, and he is selfish.
The reason why Stem Cells is morally frowned upon, is because in order to cure someone, you have to kill an embryo. Someone's selfish act is benefiting humanity. Should we support that? Now you may just say "its a clump of cells", but to God it isn't. He gave us millions of sperm and egg because he wanted us to multiply... To kill an embryo is going against his wishes. (And to Catholics, using birth control is going against his wishes and why they frown upon that) Someone begging for a cure is a selfish act, especially if it requires killing something. Would you murder someone to save yourself? (This brings up the movie SAW)
I don't think anybody would be against Stem Cell research if it didn't involve killing an embryo.
I'll make an attempt to answer your question.
It's not God's will to make us suffer. However, it is God's will to allow us to suffer. We have free will, and sometimes bad things happen regardless of what we do. He didn't put us on this planet to make sure we lived every day in the peace and harmony. As the saying goes "There is no heaven without a hell." We have to endure suffering to see the greatness of heaven.
Why would God allow bad things to happen if he is loving? Hes our father. Would you as a father, purposely let your kid experience something bad in order for them to learn a lesson in life? The answer is probably yes. If your kid comes up to you and says "Gimme Ice cream!!!" and you say "No". They stomp and shout and say "I'm gonna run away you meanie!" Are you going to say "Ok, since you are upset, I'll give you Ice Cream." just to give them what they want? No you say "Ok run away, and you will realize the world isn't so peachy. You'll be back later. When you're hungry." Then you let them run away for the evening. They will be back and they are all the wiser.
But in order to answer about Stem Cells, I need to give you background. Christianity has a spectrum.
God is on one side, and he is loving. Sometimes that love means tough love.
Satan is on the other side, and he is selfish.
The reason why Stem Cells is morally frowned upon, is because in order to cure someone, you have to kill an embryo. Someone's selfish act is benefiting humanity. Should we support that? Now you may just say "its a clump of cells", but to God it isn't. He gave us millions of sperm and egg because he wanted us to multiply... To kill an embryo is going against his wishes. (And to Catholics, using birth control is going against his wishes and why they frown upon that) Someone begging for a cure is a selfish act, especially if it requires killing something. Would you murder someone to save yourself? (This brings up the movie SAW)
I don't think anybody would be against Stem Cell research if it didn't involve killing an embryo.
thraashman
Lifer
- Apr 10, 2000
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Actually there has recently been developed a method of embyonic stem cell research that does not involve destroying an embryo, but people are still against it. Also most of the stem cell research being done would use embryos that were already being destoyed. Basically these people who are against it would rather throw away their trash rather than recycle.
Also you say God is loving and Satan is selfish, but isn't God the one saying "Do this or I'll send you to hell to be tortured for all eternity" and Satan is the one saying "Do what you want, have fun, enjoy yourself". Really it sounds like God is a complete prick to me.
If there's alternates and people are against it, then they are morons.
Also,
"Do this or I'll send you to hell to be tortured for all eternity. " God is not saying that. Satan is... God is not selfish, he will not say anything of the sort. Just think about it. Its the same old lie since the beginning with Adam and Eve. Make a bad thing sound good, and make a good thing sound bad. Why are we are humans still falling for it?
We have free will, we choose where we go. God doesn't choose for us. He doesn't invite us to Heaven and say "Haha, you dumb ass, this is what you could have had, now I'm gonna make you fry." No. We learn of his ways, and we choose ourselves what we want to do. God has Laws. We learn them, we either follow them or we don't. He knows we will break them, nobody is perfect. But if we choose to disgard him and his laws because we are corrupt, then we will be welcomed into hell with others like us. Thats what you wanted to be, you lived your life that way, now you spend eternity in such a state. Your choice.
You see, in life, there are shades of grey. The spectrum, everything inbetween but no absolutes. The only absolutes are God and Satan. But when we die, we go to the absolute based on our actions in life.
If you choose to ignore God, and his word. You will be a victim of your own selfishness by being around souls who are completely selfish like you. No commeradarie, no friendship (unless they have something to gain and that will end shortly) and bonds. Will you have fun? Possibly, but you can't possibly enjoy it. You will be completely alone, there will be nobody on your side.
If you want to blame him and say God's the prick? Well thats up to you. I think you are misguided but, I hope you figure it out someday.
(I'm only speaking hypthetically there, I'm not judging you)
I agree with you completely, well, almost. I do believe God still does a few things himself these days. But for the most part, I think you're correct. All knowledge comes through God, so it only makes sense that advancements we make in science would be the result of God trying to help us better understand how things work and how to fix problems. That doesn't mean that man can't take some of these things and twist them into something evil (the internet and pornography, for example). God can provide us with the knowledge, but it's up to use how we use or misuse it.
I think they believe it is "playing God" or something.
That does not make sense to me. Many people who would go to "Hell" are caring, helpful, intelligent individuals who simply do not believe in a book that was written at the time of the Roman Empire.
God made people what we are. Logically (if it can even be applied here) he is to blame for creating some of us incapable of taking the large leap of faith necessary to be a Christian.
If you don't want to follow God, why would you want to be around him for all eternity anyway? Being tortured as in literally burning and being whipped and all that is nothing more than a fairy tale. The torment and anguish that a person would feel in hell would be respective of the guilt they feel and the fact that they are separated for the presence of God. Have you ever felt guilty for hurting someone? Sticks around for a long time, doesn't it. Typically until you apologize and try to make restitution. Well consider the idea that that is not possible, but that you have to just live with it for all eternity, knowing that you can never repay what you have done. There's your torture, and you bring that upon yourself. It's not God's fault you did it.
As for the stem cell research, I don't know that I have a problem with it. You're right, most of the "equipment" used is destined to be thrown away or destroyed anyway. I see no harm in using it. My opinion may change later as I explore it more, but I don't currently see a problem with it.
In the most simple terms I can find:
You don't need to worship the "book"... Christian's don't, so why should anybody? Most Christians have not even read the Bible all the way through. But in order to be a Christian and understand, you have to know that God is love, and you should atleast strive to follow his lead. If thats the least you can do, and if you do, you are sitting better than many. Babies do not yet know the word of God, but its said they will go to Heaven. Why? Because they have not willingly turned their back on God and what he represents. To deny God is to deny Love... God is the personification of Love.
Ok. So people who don't believe in God can still love...?
Sure they can, but let me ask you a question. Why is it that people have pushed God aside things like divorce has skyrocketed? Why is it when religious people who attend church marry, the marriages seemed to last? Why is it as this country (USA) seems to be going further and further away from God (Within the last 30-40 years), now that people have replaced God with Greed, things have progressively gotten worse? Just coincidence? I don't believe so.
You see, thats my leap of faith. I'm using the values and morals of Christianity and applying it to what I see today. I wasn't even a Christian until I turned 28 years old. I was Athiest and I hated God, Bible, and Christianity before... Then for some odd reason, things just "clicked" and it made sense. Gods work? Maybe.
The "God's Will" thing has always annoyed me. It gets used to downplay or avoid things. Or a cop out.
If there is "God's Will", or Fate or whatever you want to call it, then there is no free will. You cant have a'master plan' where 'everything happens for a reason' and still have free choice. Totally contrary effects. Free will can lead to unforseeable events.
This then goes one step farther. If there is only "God's Will", then there can be no good and no evil. If everything was predestined sence the dawn of time, then how can someone do anything evil, as they dont have a choice?
It is one or the other. Either there is a master plan and god's will, fate, whatever, then there is no free will.
If there is "God's Will", or Fate or whatever you want to call it, then there is no free will. You cant have a'master plan' where 'everything happens for a reason' and still have free choice. Totally contrary effects. Free will can lead to unforseeable events.
This then goes one step farther. If there is only "God's Will", then there can be no good and no evil. If everything was predestined sence the dawn of time, then how can someone do anything evil, as they dont have a choice?
It is one or the other. Either there is a master plan and god's will, fate, whatever, then there is no free will.
you have point here.. because I notice mostly the annoying christian are the one just turn or they had bad history drug use or whatever.. so they have the need to shove there crap on other people throat... I have neighbor they are christian this people never bother me and I never bother them I talk to them normally with no problem they know I don't believe any of the sh!t so they respect me.. but another hand we have the annoying one "god loves you, gay is evil, god will, blah blah blah" on street with loud speakers.
If you want to understand this perhaps you can start by reading the Book of Job.
I have always tried to look at things with an open mind and with a hope for a bright future. Some people work hard and then make a lot of debts and then they blame their bad decisions on God, or the Man, or Prejudice. While on the other hand some guy from India who works at a convenience store thinks that he is in heaven, and America is the greatest place on earth. A lot of this is just a state of mind.
Maybe the problem is not God, it is just the person involved.
I have always tried to look at things with an open mind and with a hope for a bright future. Some people work hard and then make a lot of debts and then they blame their bad decisions on God, or the Man, or Prejudice. While on the other hand some guy from India who works at a convenience store thinks that he is in heaven, and America is the greatest place on earth. A lot of this is just a state of mind.
Maybe the problem is not God, it is just the person involved.
I know but it's such a shame. I tried selling some burglar alarms to atheists and they told me there's no good and evil and wouldn't buy. As fate would have it, they got robbed.
Yup. I agree completely. You dont' have the greatest machine powered by the greatest computer of all time so you can wait around for some mythological being to use cosmic forces to help you lose 15 pounds. People need to learn that we have the ability to act in the interests of goodness, and to make our own miracles.
After reading Night by Elie Wiesel we had an assignment to debate how a supposedly good God could allow such an atrocity, and if he was all powerful shouldn't he act to stop it. My argument was that God should not act and that he didn't allow it; we did. If we are so complacent as to allow these things then we DESERVE what we get. The Jews rolled over and took it in the pooper, same as they had for 2000 years. You don't want to get marched to the showers? Then use your brain and body to fight it. Non-Jews are no better, we watched it happening for a long time.
After reading Night by Elie Wiesel we had an assignment to debate how a supposedly good God could allow such an atrocity, and if he was all powerful shouldn't he act to stop it. My argument was that God should not act and that he didn't allow it; we did. If we are so complacent as to allow these things then we DESERVE what we get. The Jews rolled over and took it in the pooper, same as they had for 2000 years. You don't want to get marched to the showers? Then use your brain and body to fight it. Non-Jews are no better, we watched it happening for a long time.
Hum, how interesting that your God thinks just like you. "It's the victim's fault for being a victim. I am going to stand up for myself." Hehe, God as a two year old.
Well it certainly isn't God's fault. He provided the framework and free will. What we do with it is our own problem. If God were to act directly it would negate the need for faith (since it would become proven). If there is no faith then religion itself unravels. Therefore God can not and should not act directly in affairs - this capacity he gave to humans.
It is important to understand that I do not adhere to a judeo-christian interpretation of God (obviously).
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