God? What do you think:

[SlitheryDee]

If we are to exist as the people we are, then the evil of the world must also exist. This makes all evil necessary for us to exist as who we are. Sometimes I think I'd rather not be who I am and not have people live such horrible things... But without them who I am doesn't exist.

There is nothing about the human condition that makes me think that this is how we're "supposed" to be, necessarily. Take away any constant and we'd be different. Add something else and we'd be different. Evil only makes sense when you view it as a tool that human society uses to discourage certain antisocial behaviors. In that sense, you take away the things that we're already working to minimize as a society and there's a good bet that things would be a great deal better. OTOH taking away everything that religion considers evil would likely result in disaster. This is because religion has lost touch with the purpose of defining something as evil.

Oddly enough, no one is arguing such.

1.) God is a self-referenced as being "what is"
2.) "what is" does exist.
C.) Therefore God exists.

The nature of such a God, OTOH and his super powers (if they do or do not include sentience, nudity and the ability to microwave a hot-pocket so hot even he himself can not eat it) are up for discussion. Logically I'm open to such a God being a spegeti monster, a non-sentient natural occurrence labeled 'god' by some jews or simply a total ass hole that created us in-order to troll us.

Though my experiences in life tell me otherwise.

You risk defining god into nonexistence here. The word "god" has many connotation that go far beyond just "what is". If you're willing to demote God to that state you might as well stop using the word god altogether, rather than trying to make the word mean everything in a poor attempt to win the argument with semantics.

Other than those that witnessed his resurrection and where willing to be murdered for their lie; Does this absolutely prove that these guys where telling the truth? No, not at all. Does it offer SOME supporting evidence, some small shred of any supporting evidence at all. Well yes, yes it does.

agreed

He means that if you loved God you would know his voice; but you are not his people and therefore you do not know the Master's voice. It's like arguing with a Vulcan that sex is fun "it isn't logical", no shit, but it's a great way to spend 5min once every few months.

This must be my favorite argument. It's the most obviously circular reasoning I've ever encountered. Hearing God's voice is proof of his existence, but to hear his voice you must already be convinced of his existence. As "one of his people" you are a strong candidate for hearing "his voice" in every mundane coincidence and every internal dialog you have with yourself. Every strong emotional moment will be a "spiritual experience" which you will convince yourself to be inaccessible to anyone but those who have "accepted the lord as their savior".

If you have to be beyond needing proof to receive it, then there is no way for even you to know that what you think you are experiencing is really proof at all.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

If we are to exist as the people we are, then the evil of the world must also exist. This makes all evil necessary for us to exist as who we are.

This has absolutely fuck-all to do with what I said. It is logically possible for a world to exist with no evil, so at least some evil is unnecessary. It makes exactly zero difference that history would've proceeded differently in a world without evil.

Sometimes I think I'd rather not be who I am and not have people live such horrible things... But without them who I am doesn't exist.

Oh give it the fuck up already. You'd be different, but you'd still be you, and you wouldn't know the fucking difference. You sure as hell would still exist so clearly you're just talking out of your ass.

 

[BabaBooey]

Who ?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

It is logically possible for a world to exist with no evil, so at least some evil is unnecessary.

Necessary to what end? To existence, I agree. To our being who and what we are, I disagree. Much of my personality comes from my not-so-pleasant upbringing and I wouldn't trade my experiences, good or bad, for anything.

You'd be different, but you'd still be you

I doubt I would be; If we had no evil my ancestors would never have murdered all those natives to take the land I'm sitting on today.

If the motivation of existence was perpetual perfection then the person I am could not exist. On the other hand if the motivation of existence was to have us all exist as who we are, then the evil in the world makes sense and is all necessary.

This is because religion has lost touch with the purpose of defining something as evil.

Evil is other-hurting selfishness, as defined by the bible. But then I do agree, religious people tend to use it as a hammer instead of a guide rail.

Hearing God's voice is proof of his existence, but to hear his voice you must already be convinced of his existence... If you have to be beyond needing proof to receive it, then there is no way for even you to know that what you think you are experiencing is really proof at all.

I agree.

You sure as hell would still exist so clearly you're just talking out of your ass

That may well be so, and If you provide a reasoned counter point to my two responses to you I'll be happy to agree that I was wrong.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Necessary to what end?

I'm sorry, what part of what I said led you to believe that I thought any evil was necessary to any end? I said quite explicitly that at least some evil was unnecessary, and it is rather my position that in a world where there exists an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being, all evil is unnecessary.

To existence, I agree. To our being who and what we are, I disagree. Much of my personality comes from my not-so-pleasant upbringing and I wouldn't trade my experiences, good or bad, for anything.

Again, please pay attention and read for comprehension: In a world with no evil, you would not be the same as the person you are in a world where evil exists, but this doesn't mean that evil is logically necessary, because who you are right now is not logically necessary either. You're just introducing red herrings

I doubt I would be; If we had no evil my ancestors would never have murdered all those natives to take the land I'm sitting on today.

So? That doesn't change anything I've said.

That may well be so, and If you provide a reasoned counter point to my two responses to you I'll be happy to agree that I was wrong.

I don't need to counter points which have no bearing on my argument in the first place.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

In a world with no evil, you would not be the same as the person you are... Who you are right now is not logically necessary.

Got ya.

So let's think about this:

an omnibenevolent, omnipotent being that allows unnecessary evil doesn't exist.

Maybe part of benevolence is allowing the evil that is necessary for us to exist as we are?

 

[totalnoob]

According to Xtians, God created heaven..which is a realm of free creatures where suffering does not exist..so clearly he could make earth that way if he wanted. Given that he doesn't..and that he prefers for birth defects, disease, parasites, natural disasters, and all sorts of innocent suffering to persist, he is obviously getting some kick out of these horrific things. Hence, he is not infinitely good.

 

[Minjin]

Heaven is like a fraternity. If you're willing to put up with all of the hazing (your time on earth), you can make it in. If you don't play the games just right, you're not getting in. And no, no shortcutting. It's like some early pledges killed themselves early to get to heaven and God was like...dammit, I'm closing that loophole.

 

[BoomerD]

God? What do you think

Has God answered yet?

I too would like to know what He thinks...

(quick...hide my posts)

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Maybe part of benevolence is allowing the evil that is necessary for us to exist as we are?

Why do you think that repeating the same irrelevancies that I've already pointed out are irrelevant constitutes a meaningful contribution to this dscussion? Why do you think I get so fucking hostile having to explain this shit to you rubes when you pull stupid shit like that?

AGAIN, however we exist, we exist "as we are." Tacking that phrase on the end of anything is simply redundant, so it is irrelevant. As I've shown, it is not necessary for all evil to exist in order for us to exist, and the fact that we might exist differently doesn't change that.

 

[HAL9000]

Maybe part of benevolence is allowing the evil that is necessary for us to exist as we are?

I'd argue that evil is a prerequisite to the human condition however if an omnipotent creator were designing us we are deeply flawed, and thus the creator is flawed.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I see your point that we could be genetically the same creatures without as much evil in the world as we have today. So, therefore we could be our genetic selves without all evil that there is in the world.

And so based on this:

it is not necessary for all evil to exist in order for us to exist

There is unnecessary evil in the world.

Since I agree that the existence of unnecessary evil is a dis-proof of the existence of an omni-powerful omni-benevolent being, this is a sound dis-proof of God.

But I believe that I need to explain something a little better:

however we exist, we exist "as we are."

No doubt, in any alternate existence we would still be exactly ourselves, as the definition of ourselves would change. But we clearly not be the selves that we are at this moment. The self that we are at this very moment can only exist given both our genetics and environment. Our environment is heavily influenced by every evil that has ever been.

So let me amend my statement:

We will not exist as we are right now, in this reality, if there was less evil in the world; we would instead exist as we 'would exist' not as we 'now exist'.

If omni-benevolence means that we are allowed to exist as we do in the present reality then an omni-benevolent omni-powerful being might still exist.

The point brought forth by hal and noob is similar: god can't be, because things are shitty, and a good god wouldn't make shitty things. I would argue that despite our shittyness, down to the exact folds we have in our brains right now, God wanted all of us to exist in the exact way that we are right now, experiences with evil inclusive, something not possible without the shittyness god has created as part of our existence.

 

[Onceler]

And yet their lives are significantly better. Is it better to be a drug-dependent person incapable of functioning in society, depressed and jonesing half of the time; or is it better to be someone that loves God and his fellow man and lives an existence that helps others, being generally joyful throughout the day?

Further there is a logical foundation:
We are physiologically wired to have spiritual experiences. For these people a focus on Christ has lead to faith that has changed their lives for the better. It truly is an awesome thing, I agree.

Not everyone who believes in God are joyfull feeling good idiots. I'm certainly not but I do believe that there is Divine Providence.

 

[Nik]

Not everyone who believes in God are joyfull feeling good idiots. I'm certainly not but I do believe that there is Divine Providence.

Not all heathens are blood thirsty sin craving lunatics, either.

 

[sandorski]

Not all heathens are blood thirsty sin craving lunatics, either.

What? You're doing it wrong!!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

My biggest problem is people like you that think a debate decides what exists in reality. You have been wasting your life if that was your goal. It isn't logical or rational to think you can say something doesn't exist jsut because it doesn't make sense to you.

Actually, while he is mostly wrong in this thread, that thought is correct.

What would be irrational is belief in the existance for something where there is no evidence.

Logic and rationality stands firmly against a belief in a god, that doesn't change because you say it's not so.

 

[HAL9000]

This is an experiment.



**************************************************

It's actually not a bad question

ATOT nefed the thread out of existence.

I posit that the nefstruction of the thread because of its creator,

Not the particular question.

**************************************************

Well? Answer the damn poll or I shall pummel you with pound cakes:

I started this thread originally

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2144108&highlight=

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

God exists in the cracks where science doesn't yet have all answers, he's hiding in the unknown to provide answers for those who are too weak to face reality.

We are all alone here and you are the only one who can change anything in your life, your prayers are wasted in the air, no one is listening, you are on your own.

So either you cling to hoplessness or you start making a life for yourself without excuses, it's up to you and no one but you, it doesn't matter what religion, race or sexuality you adhere to, you are your own master.

If you need help, you can ask, chances are you'll get help when you need it, but ask someone who cares, not an imaginary being in the sky that per your faith put you in the position you are in when you need help because if he exists, he obviously doesn't give a fuck about you.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I started this thread originally

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2144108&highlight=

You also wimped out, so shut up.

 

[HAL9000]

You also wimped out, so shut up.

I tried to persist with it but people just crapped it out of existence as it was me that posted it.

 

[sandorski]

God exists in the cracks where science doesn't yet have all answers, he's hiding in the unknown to provide answers for those who are too weak to face reality.

We are all alone here and you are the only one who can change anything in your life, your prayers are wasted in the air, no one is listening, you are on your own.

So either you cling to hoplessness or you start making a life for yourself without excuses, it's up to you and no one but you, it doesn't matter what religion, race or sexuality you adhere to, you are your own master.

If you need help, you can ask, chances are you'll get help when you need it, but ask someone who cares, not an imaginary being in the sky that per your faith put you in the position you are in when you need help because if he exists, he obviously doesn't give a fuck about you.

Recently, a Republican Politician claimed that "God gets smaller every time the Government gets bigger". So apparently the Gaps exist outside of Science too.

 

[HAL9000]

It's interesting that (at time of posting)

It's 99 to the theists and 111 to the atheists, I thought the force would be weaker in this forum.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I tried to persist with it but people just crapped it out of existence as it was me that posted it.

Do you have a problem understanding what i write?

I said shut up about it, you got it locked for a reason, if you wanted a discussion you wouldn't have had it locked, would you?

I like mince meat pies the best.

 

[HAL9000]

Do you have a problem understanding what i write?

I said shut up about it, you got it locked for a reason, if you wanted a discussion you wouldn't have had it locked, would you?

I like mince meat pies the best.

I read what you said, but I don't take orders.

I'm happy to discuss it now, given that the thread I originally created has done so well.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Recently, a Republican Politician claimed that "God gets smaller every time the Government gets bigger". So apparently the Gaps exist outside of Science too.

LOL, yeah, using god as a bat in the political sluggerfest is very American though...