God does not Exist: Therefore there is no self to pity, hate, defend, or feed.

[Dr. Zaus]

Aren't they?

I wish I had a better argument.

Yes they are.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I wish I had a better argument.

Yes they are.

I guess my point is: despite the premise of your analogy that they are in a universe with many galaxies and an origin at the big bang, if it is fundamentally impossible to empirically instantiate those phenomena in the realities of those observers, does your premise have any meaning to them? Whereof one cannot speak...

 

[MtnMan]

An Atheist does not need to Know that there is "no god". It merely needs to not believe that any god exists.

Based on the complete lack of evidence that supports any gods existence and the knowledge that supports the non-existence of any gods, then yes this atheist knows there are no gods.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I guess my point is: despite the premise of your analogy that they are in a universe with many galaxies and an origin at the big bang, if it is fundamentally impossible to empirically instantiate those phenomena in the realities of those observers, does your premise have any meaning to them? Whereof one cannot speak...

Right.

If something is an empirical impossibility then it is functionally meaningless.

However, what if the physically-real impact of something that is now empirically impossible still remains?

In this case one would expect gamma ray bursts from distant galaxies to still be observable actants in the historic record... Leading to an unsolvable paradox: Something which cannot be observed now having had an impact that can still be observed.


Perhaps this sort of thing has already happened, and explains basic paradoxes in existing physics.

 

[Chaosblade02]

There is a theory that there are multiple universes and dimensions, and we just live inside of one universe inside of one dimension.

The question of whether or not there are some entities that exist in other dimensions that may or may not be responsible in some way for the creation of this universe is a reasonable claim. But to claim to know the names and intentions of the hypothetical entities is where things start to get nutty. I'm open to the possibility such beings exist, but at the same time I can deny the existence of god/s created in the minds of humans.

If such hypothetical beings exists, then the question is whether or not they play a hand in manipulating this universe in some way, or is our universe just a ball set into motion from an event that occurred? I'd weigh in favor of it being the later, because there is no evidence of a sentient being having a direct hand in the workings of this universe. If this is the case, then groveling at a wall, or up in the sky (praying), is going to fall on deaf ears. Why are people arrogant enough to think that such beings would care about humans? Why do people assume such beings MUST be benevolent? Why couldn't they be indifferent to our existence?

As far as who created all existence, its possible that existence as we might put it has always existed in some form in another dimension or universe.

I consider myself an Agnostic.

 

[omega3]

Is There a God?

Does God exist? Here are six straightforward reasons to believe that God is really there.


By Marilyn Adamson

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

That our universe was created by some kind of intelligent design is something even Dawkins doesn't rule out.. however this doesn't mean there is a God like in the bible for example.. like if God exist how come right now babies are born with HIV in Africa just to die in a couple of days.. or so many people being misformed by birth.. do you mean God is a very cruel being or do you still believe those people have to suffer because of the deeds of others or whatever the bible says.. and what with all the other religions out there.. is there a heaven.. THAT'S what would interest me.. a creator who doesn't care about my existence is irrelevant to me. I sincerely wish there was a positive afterlife.

Feel free to ask me any though question and i will try to respond.. let's have a meaningful discussion.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

That our universe was created by some kind of intelligent design is something even Dawkins doesn't rule out.. however this doesn't mean there is a God like in the bible for example.. like if God exist how come right now babies are born with HIV in Africa just to die in a couple of days.. or so many people being misformed by birth.. do you mean God is a very sadistic being or do you still believe those people have to suffer because of the deeds of others or whatever the bible says.. and what with all the other religions out there.. is there a heaven.. THAT'S what would interest me.. a creator who doesn't care about my existence is irrelevant to me. I sincerely wish there was a positive afterlife.

Then belive in one: to belive, stick with not knowing, or dis-believe all require a decision.

 

[omega3]

Then belive in one: to belive, stick with not knowing, or dis-believe all require a decision.

I'm not interested in making a God up to believe in something i know doesn't exist.. that's pointless.. i'm only interested to know what's actually there.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I'm not interested in making a God up to believe in something i know doesn't exist.. that's pointless.. i'm only interested to know what's actually there.

And what do you consider true knowledge?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

However, what if the physically-real impact of something that is now empirically impossible still remains?

Ideally, whatever the impact might be, the antecedent cause being impossible to infer from that phenomena, it would simply get ignored. Maybe the spontaneous decay of subatomic particles are actually determined by some event that occurred in an otherwise undetectable m-brane. If we can't infer it, we disregard it.

In this case one would expect gamma ray bursts from distant galaxies to still be observable actants in the historic record... Leading to an unsolvable paradox: Something which cannot be observed now having had an impact that can still be observed.

It's arguable that an observation of an event's effect is a type of observation of the event itself, but it is kind of just splitting pedantic hairs.

Perhaps this sort of thing has already happened, and explains basic paradoxes in existing physics.

Paradoxes have more to do with problems in our language than problems with reality, but paradoxes are perhaps just a poor example. I think I get your meaning.

 

[Moonbeam]

The realization that God does not exist, the complete and total loss of my faith, is what lead me to find Him. In a world without meaning love is as meaningless as everything else. I lived in my head and believed that God and His love is what gives life meaning. When that died I died too. One night a gust of wind hit my house and I shifted from thought to being. I was the wind. In that moment I knew that it's not God's love for me that gives life meaning, but my love for Him. I am a window through which God manifests His being. I am one face of a multifaceted jewel. The knowledge of God, in my opinion, comes when the cup of grace is handed to those with longing.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

The realization that God does not exist, the complete and total loss of my faith, is what lead me to find Him. In a world without meaning love is as meaningless as everything else. I lived in my head and believed that God and His love is what gives life meaning. When that died I died too. One night a gust of wind hit my house and I shifted from thought to being. I was the wind. In that moment I knew that it's not God's love for me that gives life meaning, but my love for Him. I am a window through which God manifests His being. I am one face of a multifaceted jewel. The knowledge of God, in my opinion, comes when the cup of grace is handed to those with longing.

We just put my dad into hospice care. Drugs aren't nearly enough to manage the pain of his stage 4 cancer. I've been mentally prepared for him not to be around for 15 years, as that's when I was told he would die within a year. Yesterday I prayed and God granted me the additional time to forgive and learn to love that I told God I needed.

God granted that time... by giving me this last 15 years with my father. He'll die soon.

We know that everything is meaningless in the infinite nebula of the universe...

So we have to free ourselves to enact meaningfulness.

 

[omega3]

The realization that God does not exist, the complete and total loss of my faith, is what lead me to find Him. In a world without meaning love is as meaningless as everything else. I lived in my head and believed that God and His love is what gives life meaning. When that died I died too. One night a gust of wind hit my house and I shifted from thought to being. I was the wind. In that moment I knew that it's not God's love for me that gives life meaning, but my love for Him. I am a window through which God manifests His being. I am one face of a multifaceted jewel. The knowledge of God, in my opinion, comes when the cup of grace is handed to those with longing.

Don't get me wrong but aren't you really saying you just wanna believe in a god because it makes you feel better, not necessarily because he exists? You start by saying "the realization that God does not exist".

Like how do you explain that as i write 100's of babies in Africa are being born with HIV to die in a couple of hours or days. What kinda God would be ok with that. The bible may say these people are "punished" for wrong doings of mankind or something, but how does that seem fair to those people dying?

Here's the thing: i only wanna believe in a God IF HE ACTUALLY EXISTS.. i don't wanna believe in a delusion i put into my head to make me feel better.. then you're just lying to yourself really.

I honestly really wished God would exist.. even a punishing God cause society could really need Him to be honest.. but i don't wanna believe in an ilusion. Do you understand what i mean?

 

[omega3]

And what do you consider true knowledge?

True knowledge would be if we die here, there would factually be an afterlife were our soul goes. Otherwise it's just believing in an ilusion just for the purpose of making us feel better, not because we believe God actually exists. You understand what i mean?

I really wish there was a God and an afterlife, but me wishing something ofcourse doesn't mean it' true.

So do you actually believe in God and an afterlife existing or not and why?

 

[MongGrel]

[Image deleted.]

R'amen.

If there would be just one "social" forum where images would be least appropriate as the means of reply, this forum, the DISCUSSION CLUB would be it . . . and is.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[MajinCry]

We just put my dad into hospice care. Drugs aren't nearly enough to manage the pain of his stage 4 cancer. I've been mentally prepared for him not to be around for 15 years, as that's when I was told he would die within a year. Yesterday I prayed and God granted me the additional time to forgive and learn to love that I told God I needed.

God granted that time... by giving me this last 15 years with my father. He'll die soon.

We know that everything is meaningless in the infinite nebula of the universe...

So we have to free ourselves to enact meaningfulness.

...Huh?

You prayed to God for more time, which he gave you by not giving you more time?

Duwhut?

Besides, if you want to play it like that, Yahweh gave your dad cancer. That's not a deity you should be lovin'.

 

[LPCTech]

Quoted prohibited image removed.



R'amen.[/QUOTE]

:wub:

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Like how do you explain that as i write 100's of babies in Africa are being born with HIV to die in a couple of hours or days. What kinda God would be ok with that.

Yahweh gave your dad cancer. That's not a deity you should be lovin'.

I am who I am because of all my father has gone through.

If you and me as we are is why we have existence: then everything that happened was necessary.

I really wish there was a God and an afterlife, but me wishing something of course doesn't mean it's true.

So do you actually believe in God and an afterlife existing or not and why?

Do you know enough to know that this illusion must be an illusion?

Moon and I have dropped the idea of epistemic certainty.

If you believe in nothing you can fall for anything.

So we chose to fall for the idea of a better life.

Who I am is not what I say, but what I do.

Accordingly, I hope I believe in Jesus.

 

[Charmonium]

I am who I am because of all my father has gone through.

If you and me as we are is why we have existence: then everything that happened was necessary.



Do you know enough to know that this illusion must be an illusion?

Moon and I have dropped the idea of epistemic certainty.

If you believe in nothing you can fall for anything.

So we chose to fall for the idea of a better life.

Who I am is not what I say, but what I do.

Accordingly, I hope I believe in Jesus.

The problem with religion is that there are too many to believe in and they tend to be mutually inconsistent. You can argue that they are all different expressions of the same thing and that's fine. But that tends to undermine any dogmatic beliefs. You end up having to adopt an attitude that can encompass all forms of belief.

Personally, I think the strongest argument in favor of religion is quantum mechanics. It completely rejects any human notions of certainty, consistency, reality and even time. It requires that we transcend our traditionally linear forms of thought to adopt a new and conceptually inconsistent view of what is and isn't real. This is something Buddhism has taught for a couple of thousand years.

But the real problem with religion is that it is something learned rather than experienced. We have no way to directly experience the divine or metaphysical except through either chemicals or the altered states of mind created by various forms of mysticism. That's why ethnobotanicals have always been a part of religious practice from the dawn of time until fairly recently.

 

[Moonbeam]

omega3: Don't get me wrong but aren't you really saying you just wanna believe in a god because it makes you feel better, not necessarily because he exists? You start by saying "the realization that God does not exist".

M: No, I could not believe in God because my belief made me feel better. I lost my faith and sank into utter terrible infinite and interminable black misery. Been there and done that. Can't ever go back.

o: Like how do you explain that as i write 100's of babies in Africa are being born with HIV to die in a couple of hours or days. What kinda God would be ok with that. The bible may say these people are "punished" for wrong doings of mankind or something, but how does that seem fair to those people dying?

M: God has to put on His pants one leg at a time just like you do. You were created in His image. He only has two hands to take care of other people. The two he gave to DixyCrat are taking care of his Dad. If God is telling you how upset he is about the children dying in Africa, please do what you can. You seem to see how pissed off He is about that.

o: Here's the thing: i only wanna believe in a God IF HE ACTUALLY EXISTS.. i don't wanna believe in a delusion i put into my head to make me feel better.. then you're just lying to yourself really.

M: I, I, I, I..... That's your problem. Who are you to make demands? What you want will never happen. No such God exists. You will never find the God that was put into your head. He is not a thing or an idea. God is what makes your heart beat. He is when you are real and hidden within you is what is real. He is the emptiness on which all things are written, the infinite joy of being. He is when you are. God is an awakening. God is loves will. God is consciousness itself. Have a banana. He's monkey fun. Don't look for God. He's looking for you. Did you but suffer you would not suffer.

o: I honestly really wished God would exist.. even a punishing God cause society could really need Him to be honest.. but i don't wanna believe in an ilusion. Do you understand what i mean?

M: I found nothing so long as I held on to my wishes. I was stopped dead in the water with an empty tank. The Nothing took me in hopelessness. The canyons of ones joy are carved by tears. The love within you can never be taken, it can only be hidden.

 

[Moonbeam]

The problem with religion is that there are too many to believe in and they tend to be mutually inconsistent. You can argue that they are all different expressions of the same thing and that's fine. But that tends to undermine any dogmatic beliefs. You end up having to adopt an attitude that can encompass all forms of belief.

Personally, I think the strongest argument in favor of religion is quantum mechanics. It completely rejects any human notions of certainty, consistency, reality and even time. It requires that we transcend our traditionally linear forms of thought to adopt a new and conceptually inconsistent view of what is and isn't real. This is something Buddhism has taught for a couple of thousand years.

But the real problem with religion is that it is something learned rather than experienced. We have no way to directly experience the divine or metaphysical except through either chemicals or the altered states of mind created by various forms of mysticism. That's why ethnobotanicals have always been a part of religious practice from the dawn of time until fairly recently.

The common denominator, I think, is that all these various techniques called religions work most efficiently when one has a guide, somebody who has successfully made the journey via the methodology he or she applies. You can go sideways with drugs as easily as you can with the mechanical shells we call religions.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

The problem with religion is that there are too many to believe in and they tend to be mutually inconsistent. You can argue that they are all different expressions of the same thing and that's fine. But that tends to undermine any dogmatic beliefs. You end up having to adopt an attitude that can encompass all forms of belief.

Personally, I think the strongest argument in favor of religion is quantum mechanics. It completely rejects any human notions of certainty, consistency, reality and even time. It requires that we transcend our traditionally linear forms of thought to adopt a new and conceptually inconsistent view of what is and isn't real. This is something Buddhism has taught for a couple of thousand years.

But the real problem with religion is that it is something learned rather than experienced. We have no way to directly experience the divine or metaphysical except through either chemicals or the altered states of mind created by various forms of mysticism. That's why ethnobotanicals have always been a part of religious practice from the dawn of time until fairly recently.

I experience the altered state of mind created by mysticism at least every week.

It's no a proof of God, the point is there is no proof of anything.

But it's evidence in favor of my continued belief.

 

[sandorski]

I experience the altered state of mind created by mysticism at least every week.

It's no a proof of God, the point is there is no proof of anything.

But it's evidence in favor of my continued belief.

Altered states of mind created by Mysticism? Evidence in favour of your continued belief?

So you feel a little tipsy and everything you Believe seems just a little more legit. Sounds like a typical Last Call One Night Stand story.

Feelings, Altered States, and Emotions are easy to manipulate.

 

[Moonbeam]

Altered states of mind created by Mysticism? Evidence in favour of your continued belief?

So you feel a little tipsy and everything you Believe seems just a little more legit. Sounds like a typical Last Call One Night Stand story.

Feelings, Altered States, and Emotions are easy to manipulate.

The mistake you make, in my opinion, is to imagine that some tipsy state in your imagination is the mystical state that he experiences.

If you want to know the effects of wine you have to drink it. No description of it will be it.

You fail to realize that others may have experienced what you have not. I believe that tendency to deny is unconsciously motivated. You have closed your mind unnecessarily. It's exactly what I did. I wanted meaning but meaning according to me.

 

[crashtech]

Into the Great Unknowable dive the questing mystics; when they return to tell the tale of their journey, the empiricists say, "prove it!"