GM cancels health benefits for striking UAW workers...

[Aharami]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Aharami
that's almost 60K a year! wow. to bolt stuff together?! i want that job!

It's more than that when you factor in at least two overtime days a month at 2x or 2.5x wages.

Plus there is overtime pay for anyday over 8 hours, and most days there is some overtime. They make pretty decent money.

A friend of the family works at the Warren Chrysler plant. He hasn't worked in months due to layoffs, yet still pulls in 95% of his pay. He still complains because now he gets 0 overtime, though.

wow.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: ksheets

>UAW Local 602 Doug Radamacher, who represents workers at the Delta plant, said the union >has ensured members' benefits aren't interrupted.

>"It pays to belong to the union," he said.


But...but...if you weren't in the union you then wouldnt be on strike thus needing the union to supplement your health benefits...in the mean time Toyota is the #1 auto maker in the US... I wonder why?

Toyota does not have the legacy cost GM does and also they pay about the same to non-union workers to make sure they don;t form a union.

The Union came to be as companies did not take care of their people. Toyota has been doing a good job with their employees so no need for a union.

If Toyota pays that much too thanks to the UAW, then there's no room to complain about the UAW, crippling the auto industry, etc. The Big 3 seem to be doing well. How can they be overpaid if their wages were bargained for in an open market anyway? The idea that getting your fair share means you are overpaid is I think indicative of an attitude that undervalues labor and overvalues... well whatever it is managers do-- make phone calls and use buzzwords??

I agree. Why is it the bottom people the ones to blame for the work that the top people did.

I don't see why the top/middle are not getting their pay cut in half

 

[frostedflakes]

Ugh, I absolutely hate UAW. Good for GM, but it's not like this is going to change anything. Workers will probably be fine, I think the union can afford to pay workers a decent wage and benefits while on strike. The only people really getting screwed are GM, eventually they'll have to give in to union demands.

Innovation is part of it, but I think the main reason foreign autos are so competitive is because they don't have to put up with the same ridiculous demands domestic manufacturers do. Tons of foreign auto makers have set up plants in non-union southern states. Detroit would be smart to do the same (assuming they don't decide to start building cars in Mexico first).

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

The Big 3 seem to be doing well.

yeah, losing billions of dollars over the last few years is doing well.

How can they be overpaid if their wages were bargained for in an open market anyway?

the UAW is a monopoly, how is that an open market?

 

[NL5]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
The only people really getting screwed are GM, eventually they'll have to give in to union demands.

In a thread full of retarded reasoning, this takes the cake. Why does GM have to "give in"? If they don't think the workers are worth what they are asking for, they can not sign a new contract with the union, and leave all the union members out on the street. If these jobs are so easy a monkey can do them, then they should have no trouble filling the positions asap.

 

[frostedflakes]

It's not like GM could simply lay off their entire workforce and hire and retrain new people in a reasonable amount of time (I was not one of the people claiming a monkey could do this work, it obviously takes some training and apprenticeship). UAW has, and always will, have the auto makers by the balls. It's not so much that GM thinks the workers are worth it, just that negotiating a higher wage or more benefits with them is the more practical option.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Anubis
why are they striking

Because 36 hour work weeks are cutting into their nap time during the day.

Am I the only one that thought, GM should use the money they're saving in insurance and hire hit men to kill some of the strikers, thus screwing them and their families, like thy are screwing GM?

 

[OdiN]

Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

 

[bignateyk]

God I hate unions

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

GM pays about the same as toyota. Why is it toyota is doing ok but for GM its all the unions fault?

Actually including bonus's toyota paid their people more then the UAW GM workers...
Toyota Pay > GM Pay


Only diff. I see then is whom is running the company. maybe instead of trying to get rid of the UAW they shpuld get rid of the people running GM into the ground, those at the top.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

How much do YOU make in your job? Maybe GM should cut your wages and benefits to $10/hr, after all, you're what? A number cruncher? Hell, you could train a monkey to do that job...I'm living proof of that 😀

All you folks who make good salaries seem to have no difficulty in justifying the money YOU make, why are these people NOT entitled to make decent wages for their labor too? How many of you work in environments that are dangerous or hazardous? While there are many safety programs in place to minimize the dangers to auto workers, lots of people get seriously injured every year in the industry. What's the worst an office worker is likely to sustain? Carpal tunnel? Trip over a piece of loose carpet on the way to the lunch room? Fall out of your chair laughing at something on ATOT?

 

[NL5]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
It's not like GM could simply lay off their entire workforce and hire and retrain new people in a reasonable amount of time (I was not one of the people claiming a monkey could do this work, it obviously takes some training and apprenticeship). UAW has, and always will, have the auto makers by the balls. It's not so much that GM thinks the workers are worth it, just that negotiating a higher wage or more benefits with them is the more practical option.

Why couldn't they? Strikes last for months sometimes. These simple jobs could have epople trained for them in a few months.

The fact is, the union is not the problem. GM leadership failed to see Japan as a threat, and while they collected their 400 million dollar salaries, Japan blew past them. That is the biggest problem. The next biggest problem is the cost of healthcare. It has quadrupled over the past ten years. that is not the union or GM's fault, but is a HUGE problem. The third biggest problem is GM's biggest customer base was from blue collar Americans with good paying blue collar jobs. Those days are over. Along with the good paying jobs went the demand for American vehicles. GM is done. Over. Finished, and it has nothing to do with the unions. Hell, Toyota pays very good wages and they seem to be doing just fine......

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

GM pays about the same as toyota. Why is it toyota is doing ok but for GM its all the unions fault?

Actually including bonus's toyota paid their people more then the UAW GM workers...
Toyota Pay > GM Pay


Only diff. I see then is whom is running the company. maybe instead of trying to get rid of the UAW they shpuld get rid of the people running GM into the ground, those at the top.

retirement benefits and a much higher retiree cost.

Newer auto companies don't have this tremendous burden.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

GM pays about the same as toyota. Why is it toyota is doing ok but for GM its all the unions fault?

Actually including bonus's toyota paid their people more then the UAW GM workers...
Toyota Pay > GM Pay


Only diff. I see then is whom is running the company. maybe instead of trying to get rid of the UAW they shpuld get rid of the people running GM into the ground, those at the top.

I thought it was the other way around. Hourly wages are similar, but when you factor in benefits, UAW workers earn far more than Toyota employees.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

How much do YOU make in your job? Maybe GM should cut your wages and benefits to $10/hr, after all, you're what? A number cruncher? Hell, you could train a monkey to do that job...I'm living proof of that 😀

All you folks who make good salaries seem to have no difficulty in justifying the money YOU make, why are these people NOT entitled to make decent wages for their labor too? How many of you work in environments that are dangerous or hazardous? While there are many safety programs in place to minimize the dangers to auto workers, lots of people get seriously injured every year in the industry. What's the worst an office worker is likely to sustain? Carpal tunnel? Trip over a piece of loose carpet on the way to the lunch room? Fall out of your chair laughing at something on ATOT?

I'm just a DB Analyst/IT Specialist. I'm not raking in the dough by any means.

I'm not saying these people aren't entitled to a fair wage, but to want more than they are making already is rather insane IMO.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

GM pays about the same as toyota. Why is it toyota is doing ok but for GM its all the unions fault?

Actually including bonus's toyota paid their people more then the UAW GM workers...
Toyota Pay > GM Pay


Only diff. I see then is whom is running the company. maybe instead of trying to get rid of the UAW they shpuld get rid of the people running GM into the ground, those at the top.

retirement benefits and a much higher retiree cost.

Newer auto companies don't have this tremendous burden.

Thats my point. Its not the current UAW workers causing this but GM brass that agreed to these benifits years ago thinking it would not affect them. Now they expect current workers to pay for the big bosses mistakes, current and old.

 

[frostedflakes]

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
It's not like GM could simply lay off their entire workforce and hire and retrain new people in a reasonable amount of time (I was not one of the people claiming a monkey could do this work, it obviously takes some training and apprenticeship). UAW has, and always will, have the auto makers by the balls. It's not so much that GM thinks the workers are worth it, just that negotiating a higher wage or more benefits with them is the more practical option.

Why couldn't they? Strikes last for months sometimes. These simple jobs could have epople trained for them in a few months.

The fact is, the union is not the problem. GM leadership failed to see Japan as a threat, and while they collected their 400 million dollar salaries, Japan blew past them. That is the biggest problem. The next biggest problem is the cost of healthcare. It has quadrupled over the past ten years. that is not the union or GM's fault, but is a HUGE problem. The third biggest problem is GM's biggest customer base was from blue collar Americans with good paying blue collar jobs. Those days are over. Along with the good paying jobs went the demand for American vehicles. GM is done. Over. Finished, and it has nothing to do with the unions. Hell, Toyota pays very good wages and they seem to be doing just fine......

Fair enough, you bring up some excellent points. I still don't see how the unions aren't at least partly to blame, though. Aren't current wages and benefits enough? Do they really have to keep putting more pressure on the automakers and digging them in deeper? Just because they aren't necessarily to blame for the current state of the domestic auto industry doesn't mean they can't make a few "sacrifices" (i.e. being content with $29/hr; I'd be pretty happy with this wage, and I'm going to college for a BS in electrical engineering) to ensure they will still be working for these companies in the future.

 

[GRIFFIN1]

People need to realize that we are well on our way to a global economy. The average Chinese worker's pay will increase and the average American worker's pay will decrease until we are all being paid the same. I wonder what the workers at GM will think when they can no longer afford to buy one of the cars they make.

 

[NL5]

What kills me is most everyone is complaining about a blue collar guy making 60k a year, but Wagoner can make $400 million a year and nobody even mentions it. $400mil to get his ass handed to him by Toyota. Wow. That is just mind boggling. Henry Ford believed that a CEO should never make more than 10x what a floor employee makes. The CEO of Costco still believes that. Look at Costco, they are really struggling.....

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

GM pays about the same as toyota. Why is it toyota is doing ok but for GM its all the unions fault?

Actually including bonus's toyota paid their people more then the UAW GM workers...
Toyota Pay > GM Pay


Only diff. I see then is whom is running the company. maybe instead of trying to get rid of the UAW they shpuld get rid of the people running GM into the ground, those at the top.

retirement benefits and a much higher retiree cost.

Newer auto companies don't have this tremendous burden.

Thats my point. Its not the current UAW workers causing this but GM brass that agreed to these benifits years ago thinking it would not affect them. Now they expect current workers to pay for the big bosses mistakes, current and old.

The UAW is the one who demanded the insane healthcare coverage and pensions.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
It's not like GM could simply lay off their entire workforce and hire and retrain new people in a reasonable amount of time (I was not one of the people claiming a monkey could do this work, it obviously takes some training and apprenticeship). UAW has, and always will, have the auto makers by the balls. It's not so much that GM thinks the workers are worth it, just that negotiating a higher wage or more benefits with them is the more practical option.

That sounds like a capitalist process to me. Is capitalism only good if it maximizes profits for some industrial heir at the expense of workers?

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

GM pays about the same as toyota. Why is it toyota is doing ok but for GM its all the unions fault?

Actually including bonus's toyota paid their people more then the UAW GM workers...
Toyota Pay > GM Pay


Only diff. I see then is whom is running the company. maybe instead of trying to get rid of the UAW they shpuld get rid of the people running GM into the ground, those at the top.

retirement benefits and a much higher retiree cost.

Newer auto companies don't have this tremendous burden.

Thats my point. Its not the current UAW workers causing this but GM brass that agreed to these benifits years ago thinking it would not affect them. Now they expect current workers to pay for the big bosses mistakes, current and old.

The UAW is the one who demanded the insane healthcare coverage and pensions.

They can demand all they want. Unless the top agrees to it then they don;t get it. Problem is all the top brass gave in to whatever anybody asked as long as they got their millions.

Now times are getting hard so shoudlk they cut the 100+million dollar pay for the top or the hour wages at the bottom that are actually working?

 

[NL5]

Originally posted by: frostedflakes

Originally posted by: NL5

Originally posted by: frostedflakes
It's not like GM could simply lay off their entire workforce and hire and retrain new people in a reasonable amount of time (I was not one of the people claiming a monkey could do this work, it obviously takes some training and apprenticeship). UAW has, and always will, have the auto makers by the balls. It's not so much that GM thinks the workers are worth it, just that negotiating a higher wage or more benefits with them is the more practical option.

Why couldn't they? Strikes last for months sometimes. These simple jobs could have epople trained for them in a few months.

The fact is, the union is not the problem. GM leadership failed to see Japan as a threat, and while they collected their 400 million dollar salaries, Japan blew past them. That is the biggest problem. The next biggest problem is the cost of healthcare. It has quadrupled over the past ten years. that is not the union or GM's fault, but is a HUGE problem. The third biggest problem is GM's biggest customer base was from blue collar Americans with good paying blue collar jobs. Those days are over. Along with the good paying jobs went the demand for American vehicles. GM is done. Over. Finished, and it has nothing to do with the unions. Hell, Toyota pays very good wages and they seem to be doing just fine......

Fair enough, you bring up some excellent points. I still don't see how the unions aren't at least partly to blame, though. Aren't current wages and benefits enough? Do they really have to keep putting more pressure on the automakers and digging them in deeper? Just because they aren't necessarily to blame for the current state of the domestic auto industry doesn't mean they can't make a few "sacrifices" (i.e. being content with $29/hr; I'd be pretty happy with this wage, and I'm going to college for a BS in electrical engineering) to ensure they will still be working for these companies in the future.

They have had their actual buying power slowly decreasing over the years already. Besides, I am not arguing the validity of the strike, just that the problems in the auto industry are not the "unions fault". Like I said above, GM was dependant on a strong blue collar America. That America is GONE. (or at least going fast). GM is over, get past it. If you are going to be an EE I'd worry more about the guy in India who is twice as smart, twice as educated and will work for half of what Americans will work for.....

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: NL5
What kills me is most everyone is complaining about a blue collar guy making 60k a year, but Wagoner can make $400 million a year and nobody even mentions it. $400mil to get his ass handed to him by Toyota. Wow. That is just mind boggling. Henry Ford believed that a CEO should never make more than 10x what a floor employee makes. The CEO of Costco still believes that. Look at Costco, they are really struggling.....

$29/hr is nothing to bitch about as a line employee.

Now I don't know for sure how the benefits on their side work since they are union, but for my division we can get up to 112% max company match on a 401K. Medical benefits cost has increased this year, but the coverage is excellent. We get medical, vision, dental, life insurance, 401K, opportunities for profit sharing (kinda laughable right now but hey), tuition reimbursement if you go to school. I doubt you'd find many companies which have a better package.

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

GM pays about the same as toyota. Why is it toyota is doing ok but for GM its all the unions fault?

Actually including bonus's toyota paid their people more then the UAW GM workers...
Toyota Pay > GM Pay


Only diff. I see then is whom is running the company. maybe instead of trying to get rid of the UAW they shpuld get rid of the people running GM into the ground, those at the top.

retirement benefits and a much higher retiree cost.

Newer auto companies don't have this tremendous burden.

Thats my point. Its not the current UAW workers causing this but GM brass that agreed to these benifits years ago thinking it would not affect them. Now they expect current workers to pay for the big bosses mistakes, current and old.

The UAW is the one who demanded the insane healthcare coverage and pensions.

They can demand all they want. Unless the top agrees to it then they don;t get it. Problem is all the top brass gave in to whatever anybody asked as long as they got their millions.

Now times are getting hard so shoudlk they cut the 100+million dollar pay for the top or the hour wages at the bottom that are actually working?

Where do you guys get these numbers? $100 million, $400 million. Wagoner made $1.65 million last year.

If GM would have rejected the demands, the UAW would strike and end up costing GM billions, if they even survived.