GM cancels health benefits for striking UAW workers...

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Sawyer
Do these auto workers really have it that bad? From what I have heard, they make a good living. They come off as spoiled and think they are entitled to everything.

Good living is an understatement. Current Local 602 members average $29/hr to do what an untrained monkey can do. GM is fighting to lower new hires down to something like $15/hr.

Yeah, a friend of mine makes $23.85/hr to screw 8 bolts onto a fender 8 hours a day. Sometimes he has to sweep up metal shavings. He gets overtime a lot too---and he never went to college.

I'm over educated, have set up networks for fortune 500 companies, and I make less than he does. Unions are why cars are so damn expensive. They blackmail companies to pay workers a LOT more than they're worth.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: OdiN
Heh...I work for GM. The financial arm though.

We really need to get rid of the UAW, but I just don't see it happening. What they need to do is start getting non union people and training/placing them, and weed out the union people. Cancel their contract with the UAW and tell them to pound sand. Yeah it's assembly line stuff, it's not super easy but it's easy enough to train people for it. We're already losing money...why not just bite the bullet and retrain a bunch of people which will save on wages anyway?

Thing is...GM has very very good benefits, plus the pay that these guys are making - they shouldn't be complaining AT ALL.

GM pays about the same as toyota. Why is it toyota is doing ok but for GM its all the unions fault?

Actually including bonus's toyota paid their people more then the UAW GM workers...
Toyota Pay > GM Pay


Only diff. I see then is whom is running the company. maybe instead of trying to get rid of the UAW they shpuld get rid of the people running GM into the ground, those at the top.

A bit misleading, that link....that's the only time EVER that a non-union place has beaten the union's wages, and even then that's only because of the bonuses for the great sales year.
And the article states that the UAW wages should again pull ahead.
I'd like to see a comparison of the benefits and pension plans....that is really what's killing GM....they have, I think, BILLIONS of dollars going to retired workers' benefits. Toyota doesn't have that problem.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Gibson486
29/hr???? geesh....that is what i make......


my dad is a union worker and all he has had was pay cuts. he used to make 25/hr when he reached the 20 years experience mark....but he is forced to only make 19/hr now because of pay cuts🙁

Honestly, they are being paid way too much. A fair wage is a good thing, but 29/hr for what they do is ridiculous.

Especially when you consider that along with being grossly overpaid, they also have a great pension plan and all sorts of insurance.....and all that for simply graduating high school (or not) and having a pulse.

Jealousy is an evil emotion. Get over it.

Many white collar workers scream "jeez! They get paid that!". It is this very white collar worker who works for less than blue collar workers while at the same time think they are better than they are.

Jealousy is an evil emotion. The manufacturing industry pays very well for their workers because they need them.

Incorrect on all counts. First off, I'm not jealous of what UAW workers make. I own my own business, and I'm just fine, thanks.
But fair is fair, and a trained monkey can sit on his ass and not do a damn thing, with is EXACTLY what MANY union workers do. Some work hard, yes. Most do not...it's more of a repetitive, mind-numbing job than a physically demanding job.
Skill-wise, that's where I have a problem with what they make. Their skill-set does not match up with their pay rate.
You have to have basically zero skills to work in an auto plant on the line. You can learn how to do most of the jobs there in a week or less. It is not difficult to learn at all. Requires no schooling, no legitimate training.
And you'll make as much or more than the average college graduate.

And it's all because of the UAW basically mugging the US manufacturers when business was good and they couldn't afford to have strikes. Yes, the decisions were made years ago, but there really was no alternative at the time.

The foreign makers don't have this problem yet, because they haven't been making cars and parts in the US for that long.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Jealousy is an evil emotion. Get over it.

Many white collar workers scream "jeez! They get paid that!". It is this very white collar worker who works for less than blue collar workers while at the same time think they are better than they are.

Jealousy is an evil emotion. The manufacturing industry pays very well for their workers because they need them.

they are screwing and bolting parts together for crying out loud. something that a child could do after watching it demo'd a couple of times.
it's a different story if they're hand building an engine, which requires high level training.

at least white collar workers are college educated and require some kind of smarts (for the most part). accountants, programmers, etc. have invested 4+ years of training to get to where they are.
a trained monkey could do what UAW strikers are doing.

i remember a few years back when the NYC MTA workers went on strike because they thought they weren't getting paid enough. it was revealed that on average, they were making something like $49k/yr, for sweeping subway platforms.
at that time, i was fresh out of college with my CS degree and had to settle for a $38k job. you better believe i was bitter.

perhaps you can call it jealously. i like to think of it as getting paid what you're worth.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Pacfanweb
Incorrect on all counts. First off, I'm not jealous of what UAW workers make. I own my own business, and I'm just fine, thanks.
But fair is fair, and a trained monkey can sit on his ass and not do a damn thing, with is EXACTLY what MANY union workers do. Some work hard, yes. Most do not...it's more of a repetitive, mind-numbing job than a physically demanding job.
Skill-wise, that's where I have a problem with what they make. Their skill-set does not match up with their pay rate.
You have to have basically zero skills to work in an auto plant on the line. You can learn how to do most of the jobs there in a week or less. It is not difficult to learn at all. Requires no schooling, no legitimate training.
And you'll make as much or more than the average college graduate.

And it's all because of the UAW basically mugging the US manufacturers when business was good and they couldn't afford to have strikes. Yes, the decisions were made years ago, but there really was no alternative at the time.

The foreign makers don't have this problem yet, because they haven't been making cars and parts in the US for that long.

Well at least you understand the problem. I only post my opinion because I am directly involved - on both ends, let's leave it at that.

Your point about foreign makers don't have this problem yet is exactly what I was trying explain. The trained monkeys comment is somewhat true, but as I said earlier these kinds of jobs are hotly contested. WHY? Supply and demand.

I do make the point that training to work on the line involves many weeks if not more of training and they are rotated to learn many aspects of different jobs. This rotation is only after they have completely mastered a particular position. These guys don't stay in one place all that long (even during the day) and as they build their skills and proficiency they are portable - that makes them more valuable.

This makes them knowledgeable, portable resources. Exactly like white collar jobs. The cream does indeed rise in both aspects of manufacturing. Gee...just like every other.

 

[bctbct]

Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004
Source: 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc.
GM:
$1,525
Toyota:
$201


Toyota does not have the legacy costs... yet.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: bctbct
Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004
Source: 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc.
GM:
$1,525
Toyota:
$201


Toyota does not have the legacy costs... yet.

That's only a small portion of the legacy cost of benefits. That is ONLY health care costs and does not include all other benefits.

1300 bucks difference per unit is a big fucking deal.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: spidey07
Jealousy is an evil emotion. Get over it.

Many white collar workers scream "jeez! They get paid that!". It is this very white collar worker who works for less than blue collar workers while at the same time think they are better than they are.

Jealousy is an evil emotion. The manufacturing industry pays very well for their workers because they need them.

they are screwing and bolting parts together for crying out loud. something that a child could do after watching it demo'd a couple of times.
it's a different story if they're hand building an engine, which requires high level training.

at least white collar workers are college educated and require some kind of smarts (for the most part). accountants, programmers, etc. have invested 4+ years of training to get to where they are.
a trained monkey could do what UAW strikers are doing.

i remember a few years back when the NYC MTA workers went on strike because they thought they weren't getting paid enough. it was revealed that on average, they were making something like $49k/yr, for sweeping subway platforms.
at that time, i was fresh out of college with my CS degree and had to settle for a $38k job. you better believe i was bitter.

perhaps you can call it jealously. i like to think of it as getting paid what you're worth.

Why do only blue collar workers, teachers, and actors have unions? I make $35k for work that my employer charges clients $50-150 per hour for, so unless my actual labor is worth only 1/5 what they charge, I'd say I'm pretty underpaid.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Why do only blue collar workers, teachers, and actors have unions? I make $35k for work that my employer charges clients $50-150 per hour for, so unless my actual labor is worth only 1/5 what they charge, I'd say I'm pretty underpaid.

That's a whole different can of worms, and here's what it comes down to:
1. Job stability - even if you don't work the entire year, you still have a job and the company can float the employees till the next project.

2. Taxes & Insurance - They're paying for many types of insurance, they're paying employment taxes, etc.

3. Supporting functions - They'll be paying the accountants, HR, etc.

You always have the choice of doing things on your own and doing contract work, but only if you can take care of the things they do for you, partly from that list of 3 things.

 

[razor2025]

I keep hearing about complaints about GM's legacy cost, and can't stop myself from laughing. Yeah, legacy cost hurts now, but did that cross into manager and union's mind when the GM was in its heyday? Who are we to demand union worker's retirement package be cut off to "save GM", but shy away from cutting / nullifying executive's stock option/pension plans? Everyone is just looking out for themselves.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: razor2025
I keep hearing about complaints about GM's legacy cost, and can't stop myself from laughing. Yeah, legacy cost hurts now, but did that cross into manager and union's mind when the GM was in its heyday? Who are we to demand union worker's retirement package be cut off to "save GM", but shy away from cutting / nullifying executive's stock option/pension plans? Everyone is just looking out for themselves.

The unions effectively controlled management back then. Unions are legal extortion.

 

[Exterous]

Originally posted by: razor2025
I keep hearing about complaints about GM's legacy cost, and can't stop myself from laughing. Yeah, legacy cost hurts now, but did that cross into manager and union's mind when the GM was in its heyday? Who are we to demand union worker's retirement package be cut off to "save GM", but shy away from cutting / nullifying executive's stock option/pension plans? Everyone is just looking out for themselves.

I don't think anyone here in this thread has demanded they keep their benefits/pay and options