Gingrich invokes Kennedy - Promises Lunar Moon Base by 2020

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
This isn't just an engineering challenge, you're slamming your head into the laws of physics. Honestly I don't know how we'll be able to get a serious reduction in the cost of launching things short of something really revolutionary like a space elevator.

I agree, and it should be part of any process to build colonies. I consider them to be engineering challenges as well...allowing us to "bypass" the laws of physics. (not really bypass, but I think you know what I mean)
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
It is by overcomeing technological problems, that has led us to develop new technology breakthroughs. So developing a moonbase may be a good idea and worth every penny. Just consider it as a practice mission for the first base on Mars or some moon orbiting Jupiter.

Maybe our goal might be mining rare resources, or conducting a geological survey.
 
Last edited:

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
5
81
...I guess we could do it in 8 years if we devoted the equivalent of about 150% of the country's GDP to it. No problem.
Speaker Gingrich can do it while cutting taxes and eliminating the national debt; just ask him!
He's the Candidate of Great Ideas!
 

PottedMeat

Lifer
Apr 17, 2002
12,365
475
126
Alright AT, if you elect me I will land Newt on Mars by summer 2013. Deal?

you don't even have to put him on mars, i bet you can get the mexicans to put him on the moon cheap -

20069ep.jpg
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
We've been doing this for decades.

Additionally, the private sector (venture capitalists etc.) has been pouring money in alt/renewable energy at record amounts. It's #1 in terms of the amount of money that is thrown at it.

It's just that our advances have been mostly incremental.

I suppose there are some exotic projects that we could focus even more resources on. E.g., an H3 reactor, but seems we'd need a moon base for that anyway.

I also wonder if maybe space exploration might be the way we stumble upon some new technology that provides us gobs of power in an inexpensive way. Maybe some exotic propulsion method we might find could be used to power us down here on earth.

Fern

I don't have the figures handy but I'd be willing to bet that the cost of the first year in Iraq would exceed all the money spent on energy research since the oil embargo, yet I can put forward a reasoned argument that virtually every adverse event outside of Palestine and Israel, including 9/11, is largely due to the consequences of our failure to give energy development it's proper priority.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Did Gingrinch just call the Moon the U.S. 51st State?

No. Contrary to Kennedy and the UN, who declared space not for nationalizing or militarization, Gingrich suggested a moon colony could become the 51st state.

I much prefer the ideal previously to the reversal of that policy to allow the military to use space as a platform.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
So let's see, we've got to figure out how to:
- Solve the problem of radiation exposure on the Moon (cosmic and solar)
- Solve the problem of micrometeorites.
- Make a fully self-contained biosphere. On another planet.
- Get 13,000 people to the Moon, preferably alive.

...yeah.



I guess we could do it in 8 years if we devoted the equivalent of about 150% of the country's GDP to it. No problem.
13,000 people to the moon? Look at the size of the rockets that sent the first astronauts to the moon. To get 13,000 people to the moon, you're going to need about 4000 of those rockets. Yeah, I think we could possibly pull that off for 150% of the country's GDP, if you give up the "preferably alive."

This isn't just an engineering challenge, you're slamming your head into the laws of physics. Honestly I don't know how we'll be able to get a serious reduction in the cost of launching things short of something really revolutionary like a space elevator.
I've posted about this time and time again. Thanks. Under the laws of physics, as currently understood, we will never be able to colonize planets outside the solar system, period. Could we discover something completely revolutionary? Here's a question not answered, what the heck is dark energy? The universe appears to be full of the stuff (ditto dark matter.) What if we could harness that? But, until (IF) there's something completely different from what we know, we're going no where.

The US stopped being ambitious decades ago

30 years ago this type of comment would have people excited and the media excited. Now people think it's a joke.

This is why China will dominate space in the 21st century and beyond. The USA has lot its nerve. The EU is broke. Japan is stagnant.

In reality Star Trek will be mostly Chinese crew with the token westerner manning the comms.

In reality, there's no guarantee that there will EVER be a "Star Trek" ability to travel among the stars. It's not a matter of engineering, it's a matter of physics as we know it. People treat this as if it's a predestined future, and only a matter of time. I would be thrilled for a discovery that would allow such a thing. There's this law: conservation of energy, for now, it's a pretty big hurdle to overcome. AND, we'd essentially have to figure out a way around that law, else a source of energy that isn't chemical, and isn't nuclear. For, we know how much energy there is in chemical means, and we know how much energy there is via nuclear reactions; neither is sufficient.

However, in regard to thinking that the US has lost the space race - who was it who put rovers on Mars that lasted for a long time? What about the discoveries of those rovers, such as evidence that Mars once had a near neutral (non-acidic) liquid water environment? Who launched the WISE satellite which will help discover asteroids and other objects whizzing about the solar system? Which (though not its purpose) will answer the question about a possible orbiting red dwarf. Who took that ultra deep field image?* What about the knowledge we've gained from the Cassini spacecraft? How about the various satellites we have studying the sun, which will help us predict space weather further in advance, giving advance warning to fragile electronics aboard satellites, and also ultimately help protect our entire electrical grid which could be wiped out (setting us back years) by a massive enough solar ejection (it's happened in recorded history - in the 1800's before we had the grid.) What about the Kepler satellite which is discovering new planets by the hundreds? I could go on for a long time, and these discoveries and new knowledge greatly eclipse the knowledge we've gained from manned space missions.

Someone above mentioned something about laboratories on the moon and Mars. Wonderful! Send robots up to work in those laboratories. Think of all the great improvements we could see in artificial intelligence, robotics, etc., that might be accomplished by endeavoring such a project. And realize, there's not a thing up there that we can do that robots cannot for a fraction of the price.

*It would be unfair not to note that the image was taken by Hubble, which would have been pretty near sighted due to a flaw that was repaired by shuttle astronauts. In fact, if it weren't that major screw-up, it's possible that the entire shuttle program would have done anything (other than the ISS) that couldn't have been done without manned space flight. Nonetheless, the James Webb space telescope, when/if launched, would be far more powerful, and won't be placed in a low earth orbit where human tinkering can fix it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Dubya suckered 'em with goin' to Mars! & Hydergin! so I figure Newt is trying to use Moon-pie the same way...

Playin' to the chumps & the rubes...
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,681
2,431
126
Dubya suckered 'em with goin' to Mars! & Hydergin! so I figure Newt is trying to use Moon-pie the same way...

Playin' to the chumps & the rubes...

In fairness to Dubya as I recall his promises were not made in an election cycle. Newt's pandering is much more obvious and much more crass.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Bush was trying to get the US motivated to believe we can achieve greatness. Sadly, many jeered at him for it...and still do.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,521
8,104
136
What the hell would be the benefit of having a colony on the moon? That wouldn't improve a damn thing on earth.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
In fairness to Dubya as I recall his promises were not made in an election cycle. Newt's pandering is much more obvious and much more crass.

The Bush White House was perpetually in the election cycle until after the 2006 midterms. Don't kid yourself. For them, everything was political, probably down to the brand of toilet paper at the White house...

GWB proposed the Mars mission in January, 2004, btw...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3381531.stm
 
Last edited:

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
What the hell would be the benefit of having a colony on the moon? That wouldn't improve a damn thing on earth.

Why wouldn't it? The Star Wars space based missile defense system caused laser research to be superbly well funded...and now you can have laser vision correction.

Any new technologies needed will have some civilian use for them.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,521
8,104
136
That is just it. Like manned space fight and landing on the moon there will be doubters in the scientific community "with the facts" who will say that it is next to impossible.

Thankfully we didn't listen to these people.

It took a broad initiative to take the impossible and turn it into the possible.

No one thought sending a man into space or to the moon would be easy but we (as a country) were able to overcome these barriers to make it happen.

You remind me of all of the people who come out and say "what is the point of trying to make a new search engine, social networking site, computer platform, or [insert technology] because of google/facebook/apple" What you forget is that people were saying that these thing about yahoo/myspace/ibm.
You are evidently one of those people who think something should be done because it has never been done. The new frontier guy. I suppose you are into comic books. Pie in the sky. You come off as extremely naive.
 
Last edited:

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
13,000 people to the moon? Look at the size of the rockets that sent the first astronauts to the moon. To get 13,000 people to the moon, you're going to need about 4000 of those rockets. Yeah, I think we could possibly pull that off for 150% of the country's GDP, if you give up the "preferably alive."
Too many people tend to get all upset and argumentative out as soon as you start throwing around the term "vacuum-dessicated corpses" when talking about potential astronauts. They should really think of it more as "weight savings and efficiency improvements."



It is by overcomeing technological problems, that has led us to develop new technology breakthroughs. So developing a moonbase may be a good idea and worth every penny. Just consider it as a practice mission for the first base on Mars or some moon orbiting Jupiter.

Maybe our goal might be mining rare resources, or conducting a geological survey.
I'd rather see intelligent robots doing the work. That would also have a lot of use on Earth.
It's something that we always wanted for thousands upon thousands of years: Sources of cheap labor. We've been willing to torture and kill to get it.

Researching ways of making smart robots to do remote mining, perhaps initially of high-value things like helium-3, though even that might be a long-shot, given He-3's low concentration on the Moon. Yes, it's higher than what we've got on Earth, but you're still looking at concentrations of a few parts per billion.
The potential offshoot that comes to mind would be an injection of money and resources for advanced AI systems that are truly intelligent.

People are expensive, fragile, and high-maintenance, things which are particularly burdensome when they're stuck on another planetary body that doesn't have any sources of most of the resources they need just to remain alive.




Goals: One part of having goals is to keep them reasonable. A 13,000-people lunar colony within 8 years is one of those things where throwing money at it won't fix it. If I want to send people to Alpha Centauri within 7 years, I don't care if devoted 5x all the money in the world to the problem. We couldn't do it. The capability simply doesn't exist.

A lunar colony faces similar problems: Eventually, yes, it may be feasible. Right now or in the near future, within *shudder* Gingrich's term, no. We still have problems keeping biospheres working properly right here on Earth. We still don't have any good way of shielding a structure or enclosure from cosmic radiation. We still don't have a good way of shielding a structure from constant bombardment of micrometeoroids.*

*- I suppose ways do theoretically exist, but they would be so bulky, expensive, and resource-intensive that they'd make themselves impossible to build or operate. Example: Want to shield an enclosure from radiation? Ok, make its shell a layer of water a few meters thick. Have fun moving or supporting something that heavy. And I hope it's strong, or else the first small interplanetary pebble moving at 100,000mph is going to cause some problems.;)
 
Last edited:

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,521
8,104
136
Why wouldn't it? The Star Wars space based missile defense system caused laser research to be superbly well funded...and now you can have laser vision correction.

Any new technologies needed will have some civilian use for them.
Great thinking there: fund super expensive as far as we know possibly useless endeavors that are virtually impossible because they will surely result in useful "civilian" advances.

Do you really believe that lasik surgery wouldn't have happened without Star Wars? You're really reaching there.
 
Last edited:

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
So let's see, we've got to figure out how to:
- Solve the problem of radiation exposure on the Moon (cosmic and solar)
- Solve the problem of micrometeorites.
- Make a fully self-contained biosphere. On another planet.
- Get 13,000 people to the Moon, preferably alive.

...yeah.



I guess we could do it in 8 years if we devoted the equivalent of about 150% of the country's GDP to it. No problem.

I think you missed the fact that it's the Gingrich 2 step:

1) Say a bunch of nonsense bullshit that will most resonate with whatever group is in front of you
2) Move on

That man is literally a caricature of a politician.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
2
0
What the hell would be the benefit of having a colony on the moon? That wouldn't improve a damn thing on earth.

I imagine a similar stance was taken by many when Columbus was contemplating and talking about his expedition.

The moon may be a big useless rock from a colonization perspective... or it may be a mineral/raw material paradise. We won't know until we go.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
2
0
Bush was trying to get the US motivated to believe we can achieve greatness. Sadly, many jeered at him for it...and still do.

Bush only did that in response to the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. Beyond that, his soaring rhetoric is no more praiseworthy than Obama's.

As a Republican shill, though, I'm not surprised you think that it is however.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,265
126
DP you make some good points but I'd disagree with one. There is no physical law known which would prevent colonization of other worlds. It's not technically feasable now but even I can give reasonable ways based on current ideas which may not be an issue in a few hundred years, and at time I would think they would appear quaint.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
As a Republican shill, though, I'm not surprised you think that it is however.

And there you go, being stupid on purpose again. You are still mad that I called you out in your thread for refusing to do what you wanted others to do. You need to man up and get over it already.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
2
0
And there you go, being stupid on purpose again. You are still mad that I called you out in your thread for refusing to do what you wanted others to do.

Not mad at all... just doing what I said I would; point out your shill-ness whenever I see it.

So you contend that you're not a shill?