Gillette’s wonderfully woke new commercial

[ch33zw1z]

Apologizes to Moonbeam in advance, if my attempt to re-phrase in simpler terms causes me to be in error, or guilty of similar trespass.




@P&N
This is the crux of the discussion.

Some men do horrible things. But now we have stereotyped slander onto all men, and far too many posters are wondering why that is a bad thing. Or they'll tell us "!@#$ your feelings". To hijack a familiar phrase, these posters are telling us "I'm not Trump, you're Trump!". However, their comfort with Trumpanze behavior is disturbing. The last thing this country needs is for us to emulate the right wing. Or to embrace its depravity.

We are only human, and for that we all risk slipping into madness as we create and defend sacred cows. As we take shortcuts to throw people into boxes and strip them of their innocence, guilt by association! Guilt by being "other"! Do you not care, that you have likely targeted good people in a crusade against bad people?

The issue is that the commercial does it. Reinforced by posters repeating that mistake here as well. I posted earlier, Toxic Masculinity is not a common term. You are using foreign language that, in translation, will mean ALL MEN. Instead of saying "some men are bad", the message will be received as "all men are bad". And the reactions will follow in accordance with that reception.

It's not the underlying message that is wrong. It is the delivery.

But then to jump on people whose vocabulary is different, who probably didn't take some gender studies course in the past 10 years, who only heard that term from gender hating extremists, who think you're telling us that men are toxic. This miscommunication is creeping up all over the place. There was another recent topic, where the definition was racism is defined in a very restrictive way. Again, with language that is not common, or shared. Therein are differences of opinion where we risk seeding needless conflict.

People who do not share your definitions, of language, are going to have different reactions to complex narratives. That does not make them evil, or like Trump. Wars have been started over poor translations. Do not make the same primitive mistakes as your ancestors. American culture may be splintered, but those "other" people are not evil. You're just not delivering to them, the messages you think you are.

In this particular case, nuance is important to the message being delivered. And I fear that nuance is lost in translation.

#Metoo is an important moment of backlash for women to assert themselves. To stand up to the cultural abuse they have suffered. But we can support it more broadly if we find ways to appeal and bring together more independents and moderates with messages they can all understand and appreciate. That can appeal to a wider audience. Toxic Masculinity is not one of them.

There are better ways to ask men to do better. And better ways to react when they don't understand a message.

Maybe women should just beat us into submission, it's worked wonders for men for thousands of years.

 

[Zorba]

Boys will be boys was the exact rhetoric cited by female true Trump believers when justifying the "grab em by the pussy", I even think Conway went there. You want to normalize that in the public sphere? - NOTE : Thats not to say that "boys will be boys" is a negatively charged phrase in all scenarios (though I get it would be nice to take that stance, right, you could all go "goddamn libs again, off their rockers") .. But I think it works in this one. Cause there is presidence for using it in just that context, by, for one, your President.

The ad shows a couple of pre-teen boys wrestling and then says "Boys will be Boys." What is the implication if not that boys roughhousing is some how bad? Maybe they are trying to show a bully beating up someone, but it doesn't look like that in the split second it is on the screen.

 

[ch33zw1z]

The ad shows a couple of pre-teen boys wrestling and then says "Boys will be Boys." What is the implication if not that boys roughhousing is some how bad? Maybe they are trying to show a bully beating up someone, but it doesn't look like that in the split second it is on the screen.

I got from that: shrugging it off as "boys will be boys" is not the correct response if the goal is to deter physical strength as the deciding factor in altercations, but to use words instead.

That in itself is huge swing for the human race, especially religious conservatives, not just Christian's specifically.

 

[cytg111]

The ad shows a couple of pre-teen boys wrestling and then says "Boys will be Boys." What is the implication if not that boys roughhousing is some how bad? Maybe they are trying to show a bully beating up someone, but it doesn't look like that in the split second it is on the screen.

I didnt take that away from it... But if I had, like you did, I would agree with you, that'd be some level of messed up.

As boys as well as men, we can have competitions on strength and battle while still being in good faith on all sides.

 

[realibrad]

Maybe women should just beat us into submission, it's worked wonders for men for thousands of years.

Why would you choose his post to respond to with that comment? How is it connected to what he said in any way?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Why would you choose his post to respond to with that comment? How is it connected to what he said in any way?

It's not a hard one to suss. It's a delivery method that men understand, really get them on their level. Cmon man....

 

[Jhhnn]

Masculinity has toxic parts. The modern term, however, states that inherent to masculinity is something toxic.

The deplorables embrace that so-called "modern" interpretation entirely. They revel in assholery.

 

[Zorba]

I got from that: shrugging it off as "boys will be boys" is not the correct response if the goal is to deter physical strength as the deciding factor in altercations, but to use words instead.

That in itself is huge swing for the human race, especially religious conservatives, not just Christian's specifically.

So you think that boys roughhousing is wrong? In the split second the screen, it looks like they are playing to me, not having an altercation. Maybe this is the problem with trying to boil down a very broad and nuanced subject down into a 90 second ad.

Considering the number of large mammal offspring participating in roughhousing/play fighting I think it is much more reasonable to point to evolution than religious culture for boys roughhousing.

 

[realibrad]

It's not a hard one to suss. It's a delivery method that men understand, really get them on their level. Cmon man....

Its no wonder discussions are not very productive in this thread.

 

[ch33zw1z]

So you think that boys roughhousing is wrong? In the split second the screen, it looks like they are playing to me, not having an altercation. Maybe this is the problem with trying to boil down a very broad and nuanced subject down into a 90 second ad.

Considering the number of large mammal offspring participating in roughhousing/play fighting I think it is much more reasonable to point to evolution than religious culture for boys roughhousing.

No, I think that writing off physical altercation as "boys will be boys" is increasingly seen as not the correct response. There are times it's fine, but it's still ok to discuss why it's not the only way to solve altercations.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Its no wonder discussions are not very productive in this thread.

oh? do tell. Are you denying that historically men have dominated women in pretty much any culture I can think of?

 

[Zorba]

The deplorables embrace that so-called "modern" interpretation entirely. They revel in assholery.

There are plenty of women that fall into that same bin, are we sure it isn't just assholeness as opposed to "toxic masculinity?"

Considering I have never seen a guy ask a girl to smile, and of women friends none have ever been asked to smile, is that really a result of masculinity or a result of someone being a dick?

 

[Zorba]

No, I think that writing off physical altercation as "boys will be boys" is increasingly seen as not the correct response. There are times it's fine, but it's still ok to discuss why it's not the only way to solve altercations.

I completely agree with you, if two boys are beating on each other over who can watch the TV. If they are in the backyard having fun, not so much. The ad looks like the latter not the former.

I'm not really against the message of the ad, I just think the delivery sucks and comes off as a massive attack on being a boy/guy as opposed to telling guys to stand up to other guys who are assholes.

 

[realibrad]

oh? do tell. Are you denying that historically men have dominated women in pretty much any culture I can think of?

Dominated is not the right word for sure. For sure women did not hold the same power as men, and any argument to that would be absurd. But, to say women were dominated is also wrong.

His post was about how people are talking past each other. So again, why did you choose his post to respond to with your comment?

 

[ch33zw1z]

Dominated is not the right word for sure. For sure women did not hold the same power as men, and any argument to that would be absurd. But, to say women were dominated is also wrong.

His post was about how people are talking past each other. So again, why did you choose his post to respond to with your comment?

His post was about how the message being delivered is the problem, it's literally what he posted. Maybe women are just being too mean this time, or using the wrong words, maybe if they're just nicer then they'll get treated as equals. History certainly supports that.

Dominated is the correct word, this isn't about feels, it's about facts.

I certainly expected more thought from you WRT to why my reply to his post was exactly what I put.

So, in your own words, maybe you'd like to script the message of the #metoo movement and provide a great delivery method. It should be short, and chant worthy (that seems to be what people wants), yet describe the movements core message without offending too many people (not really what conservatives want tho, look out), and super easy to market. Please, no vagina hats, it's been done.

 

[ch33zw1z]

I completely agree with you, if two boys are beating on each other over who can watch the TV. If they are in the backyard having fun, not so much. The ad looks like the latter not the former.

I'm not really against the message of the ad, I just think the delivery sucks and comes off as a massive attack on being a boy/guy as opposed to telling guys to stand up to other guys who are assholes.

I did not feel attacked by the ad. I do feel like any delivery method WRT #MeToo will be met by many many people as an attack on men though, because us men are like that.

The context of the physical part is definitely a big part of it. I have two brothers, I also have two sons, I certainly know rough housing versus real fighting.

 

[realibrad]

His post was about how the message being delivered is the problem, it's literally what he posted. Maybe women are just being too mean this time, or using the wrong words, maybe if they're just nicer then they'll get treated as equals. History certainly supports that.

Dominated is the correct word, this isn't about feels, it's about facts.

I certainly expected more thought from you WRT to why my reply to his post what exactly what I put.

His post was about trying to convey a message, and your response was to use physical violence because that is how men were toward women.

You don't see how that would at best be unproductive?

 

[ch33zw1z]

His post was about trying to convey a message, and your response was to use physical violence because that is how men were toward women.

You don't see how that would at best be unproductive?

Men have been very productive via physical violence, agree?

 

[Starbuck1975]

Careful you'll trigger those who are really concerned about a company saying something positive because it might be marketing intended to make them money. You know like when Amex runs ads about it support for food charities. I'm sure if we look back we'll find many threads outraged about "virtue signalling" and for profit corporations.

Yawn. Carls’ Jr., Axe body spray and GoDaddy were all companies notorious for their sexist ads. All in recent years have course corrected in a way that is responsive to the #metoo movement, and have injected a more positive message in defining masculinity.

There were no threads on any of them because those brands credibly transitioned in a way that was genuine and credible.

I don’t think anyone is complaining about the message. GIllette failed on delivery. The ad is a misfire. Plain and simple. You don’t get to 1M dislikes on YouTube unless you’ve screwed up.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Men have been very productive via physical violence, agree?

There is a biological and instinctive physicality to masculinity. Just watch any little boys interact, its quite primal. I am glad I grew up at a time when the adults let the kids figure out how to navigate conflict, which sometimes involved fighting.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Yawn. Carls’ Jr., Axe body spray and GoDaddy were all companies notorious for their sexist ads. All in recent years have course corrected in a way that is responsive to the #metoo movement, and have injected a more positive message in defining masculinity.

There were no threads on any of them because those brands credibly transitioned in a way that was genuine and credible.

I don’t think anyone is complaining about the message. GIllette failed on delivery. The ad is a misfire. Plain and simple. You don’t get to 1M dislikes on YouTube unless you’ve screwed up.

I would say there were no threads on any of them because nobody GAF. This just happens to catch the attention of many projectionist snowflakes, and the OP's not so subtle disdain for the #metoo movement. Sorry ladies, I know it's been 100 years since you won the right to vote, but isn't that enough?

Don't like it, vote with your wallet. That's what I do.

 

[ch33zw1z]

double post, forum been acting weird last couple days.

 

[ch33zw1z]

There is a biological and instinctive physicality to masculinity. Just watch any little boys interact, its quite primal. I am glad I grew up at a time when the adults let the kids figure out how to navigate conflict, which sometimes involved fighting.

Oh I agree, it appears that others dont? I don't pretend like that isn't part of society and what's directed towards women either.

 

[Jhhnn]

There are plenty of women that fall into that same bin, are we sure it isn't just assholeness as opposed to "toxic masculinity?"

Considering I have never seen a guy ask a girl to smile, and of women friends none have ever been asked to smile, is that really a result of masculinity or a result of someone being a dick?

Heh. They elected Trump, an outstanding example of toxic masculinity. It's a whole different kind of assholery than what women generally exhibit.

 

[KMFJD]

A nice lady in her late 70's saw me buying some at the pharmacy today and we had a good laugh about conservative snowflakes