GF FX 5800 Ultra Vs. Radeon 9700 Pro

[oldfart]

Ok, checked it out again. Late last night, I wasn't into putting much time in this. I installed HL and Nolf to see if they worked, not much more than that.

Odd, it is a known and admitted bug(by ATi) that the game hard locks systems whenever you try to go from the game to the menu running OGL. Only thing yet to manage to hard lock my new build, ATi's drivers. Surprised you don't have them installed, next months announcement got me wanting to play through them all again

I do have Cat 3.2 installed if that is what you mean. And yes, as I said in my previous post, I have a black screen when I exit the game or actually, when I go back to the menu. The game does run though. If I were still playing HL, this would be a problem. I'm not, so for me, its no big deal.

Try turning around quickly BFG has the same issue it seems. It doesn't matter what settings you use, from 640x480x16 to 16x12x32x6x16. NOLF2 does not have the issue(although KPC which also runs on the older Lithtech engine does).

Ok, now I see it. Its a mouse lag issue, not a raw framerate problem. Again, I installed it quick to check it out. Also again, dont play it anymore so no biggie there. I dont have NOLF2 to try.

I sum it like this (I know I'm repeating myself).

I wanted a card that can play the new games such as BF1942 with I/Q turned up, high level of AA and AF. My Ti4600 could not do that. My choices to replace it were 9700/9800 and 5800. The dustbuster factor of the 5800 made it a non contender. That leaves only the 9700/9800. Basically, a choice of one card. That is what I went with. Can you suggest a better card that I can buy right now?

Are ATis drivers up to nV standards? Not quite.

Is nV 2D quality up to ATi's? No.

Does nV have a card that competes with ATi in AA/AF performance. Not for me they don't.

There are always compromises.

 

[BenSkywalker]

There are always compromises.

I agree with that sentiment completely. My initial comment was about ATi's drivers and them improving a lot over the last few months. They 'improved' so much in that time frame they convinced me to get rid of my board

 

[gururu]

there seems to be a lot of things people are trying to prove. I see a lot of valid points from the many sides.
Why would anyone dispute that ATI has had many and is still working out some driver problems? It is only logical, since it would
have been a miracle had they settled them all in a years time. ZimZum points out that Nvidia has problems too. I agree. With changing technologies and new versions of Direct3D and OpenGL, who would expect different.
It is a poor argument however, to trash a product based on driver bugs in old games (I agree with oldfart).
ATI has done a wonderful job making sure today's games run faster with their cards, and has not disappointed me in their
attempts to correct bugs in old games.

So I ask, what is the problem? Numbers don't lie. Some tests say the 9700pro is faster. Some say the FX is faster. Enough said.
I just wish the FX was out a little sooner, and little smaller, a little cooler, and a little quieter.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
TheSnowman-

wow, wat to nail them 5 times for one mistake there Ben!

Say nVidia had one bug that caused all OpenGL games to cease working, I'm sure you would have the same attitude wouldn't you? They wrecked 'em all, they should be held accountable. The fact that one bug could break several of the most popular PC titles ever and to date and ATi didn't catch is speaks volumes about the QC of their driver team.

lol, i would say their latest drivers broke opengl and that it is best to use a previous release if you need that functionalty. i would not type out a list of every game related to the problem ever made, or slag them for being less than perfect, but the fact that you did speaks volumes about your bias.

 

[blahblah]

Originally posted by: gururu
what is the problem? Numbers don't lie. Some tests say the 9700pro is faster. Some say the FX is faster. Enough said.
I just wish the FX was out a little sooner, and little smaller, a little cooler, and a little quieter.

Don't forget to add, a little better pricing. It is ridicules for them to sell the Flow Ultra for $400. $300 would be reasonable, and $250 would be ideal, (okay more like wishful thinking, but $399, maybe they are smoking something.

But the really sad part is that people are buying it and they are buying into the hype/propaganda. I've said this already, but I will say it again. The NV PR machine simply can not be stopped. I'd guess even if NV35 turns out to be an inferior product, people would still sign it's praises. (Not that I am suggesting it would turn out badly)

 

[oldfart]

Originally posted by: blahblah

But the really sad part is that people are buying it and they are buying into the hype/propaganda. I've said this already, but I will say it again. The NV PR machine simply can not be stopped. I'd guess even if NV35 turns out to be an inferior product, people would still sign it's praises. (Not that I am suggesting it would turn out badly)

Did you check out nVidias new PR campaign?

 

[blahblah]

Originally posted by: oldfart
Did you check out nVidias new PR campaign?

LOL, but you did forget one important fact, ATI Drivers Suck, they only have WHQL certified drivers because their drivers suck!

Add that in, then it will be a worthy piece to the NV PR dept.

 

[oldfart]

ATi beefs up its PR to match nV!

 

[bunnyfubbles]

That man never lies!

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Why aren't people comparing the 5800 to the 9800...it only seems fair.

because the 9700Pro is still beating the 5800Ultra sometimes

and the 9800 is not really available

 

[BFG10K]

NOLF2 does not have the issue

Yeah, NOLF2 runs absolutely beautifully at 1600 x 1200 x 32 with 16x performance anisotropic and I think the 9700 Pro can even manage 1792 x 1344. I'll test it the next time around when I play the game again.

I'm also glad that you and Oldfart have the same mouse lag issue in NOLF because it proves that it's not a system setup issue on my part.

Like the SeriousSam issue?

That's one of them.

The problems with the FX boards?

Yes.

I tried.

That's very strange. Did you get an error or did the textures just not load at all?

Forgot to add, I try and avoid WHQL drivers with nV boards as I always have. They do not include OCing utilities(as per WHQL requirements).

Yeah well ATi has been releasing WHQL drivers monthly for at least the last year while we've probably seen one from nVidia in that same time period. That to me, along with other things, speaks volumes about each vendor's committment to driver quality. nVidia used to easily be the top dog but they've now slipped really far and ATi have improved so much that I'd call ATi an almost equal to nVidia with respect to driver quality. nVidia still has the edge but not by much. And I predict the gap will narrow, not widen.

 

[rbV5]

Forgot to add, I try and avoid WHQL drivers with nV boards as I always have. They do not include OCing utilities(as per WHQL requirements).

Radeon WHQL drivers(any of them acually) don't include OCing utilities, but there are plenty of utilities that work perfectly fine with the WHQL drivers. As a side note, I've yet to feel the need to overclock my 9700.

 

[nRollo]

"Don't forget to add, a little better pricing. It is ridicules for them to sell the Flow Ultra for $400. $300 would be reasonable, and $250 would be ideal, (okay more like wishful thinking, but $399, maybe they are smoking something. "
Economics 101: Supply and demand sets the price, not what kids on the gaming bbs think is a fair price. I don't know if you've noticed, but you would have a hard time buying a 5800 of any type for MSRP. Vendors are selling them for 5800 $350-$400, Ultra $430-$500 because supply is low, demand is high.

"But the really sad part is that people are buying it and they are buying into the hype/propaganda. I've said this already, but I will say it again. The NV PR machine simply can not be stopped. "
LOL Yes that is a tragedy. People buying video cards. My God. What are they thinking?! Why, I've heard the noise from that thing has been known to make pets go deaf and children cry. Can you imagine? Houses full of wailing kids, with the parents screaming "Come here Spot!" while their beagle walks away as if nothing is happening?!
Our president says terrorists are the challenge we face, but I think we all know the only problem America has is the horror of the GF FX.

 

[nRollo]

BFG
"Yeah well ATi has been releasing WHQL drivers monthly for at least the last year while we've probably seen one from nVidia in that same time period. That to me, along with other things, speaks volumes about each vendor's committment to driver quality."
Me too. nVidia drivers worked all along, and offered good performance, while ATI was feverishly trying to correct mistakes."

" nVidia used to easily be the top dog but they've now slipped really far and ATi have improved so much that I'd call ATi an almost equal to nVidia with respect to driver quality. nVidia still has the edge but not by much."
No WHQL drivers! Will we survive?


" And I predict the gap will narrow, not widen."
Of course you're just spouting nonsense because you have absolutely no way of knowing what either company will be doing, but what the heck? Someone probably believes you. While you're predicting, could you tell me which stocks to buy, and what lottery numbers to pick?

 

[BenSkywalker]

Gururu-

It is a poor argument however, to trash a product based on driver bugs in old games

Counterstrike. We aren't talking about pulling up some title that was a quick flash in the pan six years ago. We are talking about the most popular on line title in the world right now(and it has been for quite some time). Also, problems showing up with older games simply exposes bugs. nVidia has one in their latest drivers, they can't handle ppm textures under DX6 that have transparancies without image corruption. The only title I've seen that this impacts is Incoming(an old arcade shooter that hit back in '97 IIRC). To you or I, who cares? But there are people that do. For Counterstrike, there are hundreds of thousands of people that do care about the game being unplayable in a reasonable fashion.

BFG-

I'm also glad that you and Oldfart have the same mouse lag issue in NOLF because it proves that it's not a system setup issue on my part.

Don't know if you tried it or not, but enabling VSync does help out quite a bit(it is horrendously bad without VSync, still pretty bad with it though).

That's one of them.

The SS issue was game related-

gap_iDepthBits=(INDEX)24;
gap_iStencilBits=(INDEX)8;

Placed in the cfg files this fixed the Z fighting issue(SS and SS:SE).

That's very strange. Did you get an error or did the textures just not load at all?

Textures wouldn't load. No error message, the S3TC textures just wouldn't work. After uninstalling the R9500P and popping in the GF4 I fired it up and they were working right off(with the ini file set for the Radeon).

Yeah well ATi has been releasing WHQL drivers monthly for at least the last year while we've probably seen one from nVidia in that same time period. That to me, along with other things, speaks volumes about each vendor's committment to driver quality.

What issues were there with nV's drivers? ATi should really be banging them out every week, at the longest, from what I've seen. If there isn't anything to fix, why would you release new drivers? As far as WHQL certification, I've never used them nor desired them. If I see WHQL I see 'do not download'

RBV5-

Radeon WHQL drivers(any of them acually) don't include OCing utilities, but there are plenty of utilities that work perfectly fine with the WHQL drivers. As a side note, I've yet to feel the need to overclock my 9700.

After you flash the BIOS on the video card they work fine. For me this meant all I had to do was DL the drivers from ATi, find an empty HD so I could install Win98 and create a boot CD(Win2K), find the OCable BIOS file, download that and burn it to CD, then exit out and boot up and then flash my BIOS on my vid card, then go online and download a utility and then I can OC. Gee, compared to installing non WHQL drivers that is really pain free, huh?

 

[Keysplayr]

Is the NV30 a good card?

 

[kylebisme]

well its not a bad one by any means, but i think it its a bit overpriced considering the compitition.

 

[nRollo]

"Is the NV30 a good card? "
Yes it offers performance as good or better than it's competition in non AA/AF situations, and very good performance in AA/AF situations. Even if you buy that ATI performance AF looks just as good as nVidia balanced, it's not like nVidias is unusable.

 

[oldfart]

New article on 5800 Vs 9800. Lots of AA/AF benches and screenshots..

 

[ASIMOS]

Game developers always want to sell games. They want to sell as many as possible. They want to have the most broad customer base. Nvidia was the last 3-4 years the biggest player in the market especially for performance parts (100-200$) and high end parts (200-400$).So there is a large base out there with Nvidia chips.Also Nvidia had these 3-4 years the best drivers.Also they had the best relationship with the game developers.Also they had the best marketing.Also they had financial growth.Also they had a lot of influence can keep on?
It is (was?) natural for a game developer to support better Nvidia graphics cards than the competition.
That?s why they stayed on top so may years.They were not much better in designing hardware than other companies (ATI, 3DFX, POWER VR).Also they were lucky!!!
ATI released 8500 a quarter more or less after Geforce 3.
8500 was much faster than Geforce 3.
Then Nvidia released a superb detonator edition that close somewhat the gap but in the end 8500 was faster.After a quarter nvidia released Geforce Ti seriers end earned equality (Ti 500).So clock for clock actually 8500 was around 10% slower than Geforce 3 technology.
Geforce 4 technology was around 20-25% faster clock for clock than geforce 3.
So Geforce 4 technology was around 30-35% faster clock for clock than 8500 technology.
All these figures are based comparing directX 7 & 8 based game engines.
If an engine is written specifically with directX 8.1in mind (and also has a goal to implement a look and feel a directX 8.1 game should have) and then downgrade the engine so it is compatible with DirectX 8 I suppose that 8500 will be faster in a clock for clock comparison with Geforce 4 tech.
Ofcource this is not going to happen but as we move forward to DirectX9 based engines and as ATI continue to lead in performance we may see games that will be faster (or equal) in 8500 than in Geforce 4Ti 4200-8X.I am interested especially in Doom 3 engine since it will influence the market.
As for which is better FX5800 or Radeon 9800 I have post previously that 9800 is a clear winner.
You cannot possibly tell, but if a programmer choose to write specific code (not DirectX but hardcore assembly) for 9800 tech and FX5800 tech, 9800 will look definitely better. I have the opinion that Nvidia always was cheating in quality in favor of speed. Their implementation of DirectX specification was always good but the implementation of the various effect (in some cases) was not so successful in quality and feel.

 

[Pete]

Originally posted by: Rollo
BFG
"Yeah well ATi has been releasing WHQL drivers monthly for at least the last year while we've probably seen one from nVidia in that same time period. That to me, along with other things, speaks volumes about each vendor's committment to driver quality."
Me too. nVidia drivers worked all along, and offered good performance, while ATI was feverishly trying to correct mistakes.

nV has released quite a few non-WHQL drivers in the meantime, so it's not as if ATi has been cranking out drivers nonstop while nV got it right the first time around. We've seen a half-dozen or so different nV drivers used for FX reviews since the first 5800U reviews were released a month or two ago. Judging by their varying IQ, nV hasn't exactly been twiddling their thumbs contentedly.

I'm anxious to see a 9800P with Cat 3.3's go up against a NV30U/NV35U with Det 50's in the next few weeks--both companies will have had a bit of time to iron out kinks with their latest cards.

 

[rbV5]

New article on 5800 Vs 9800. Lots of AA/AF benches and screenshots..

Looks like the FX dominates in the Professional OpenGL applications, that says alot about its continued workstation performance dominance. Thats one area ATI disappoints me considering the FireGL Team hasn't risen the bar with the pro line of cards and trickled down to the R3xxx cards, disappointing. Beyond that, the 9800 looks to pick up where the 9700 left off...PS2.0, nice. AA/AF...nice (if you buy the "comparison"

). No disappointment there!

 

[nRollo]

"Beyond that, the 9800 looks to pick up where the 9700 left off...PS2.0, nice. AA/AF...nice (if you buy the "comparison" ). No disappointment there! "
LOL- I noticed that too. It basically says, "It's hard to tell from these screenshots, so you'll have to trust us. nVidias very highest setttings are the only equal of ATI"
Of course, they're the only site I've seen who has come to this conclusion and posted such incredibly lopsided benchmarks, but who knows?

 

[BFG10K]

Don't know if you tried it or not, but enabling VSync does help out quite a bit(it is horrendously bad without VSync, still pretty bad with it though).

No, I only checked to make sure it was off. Mouse lag is usually tell-tale sign of vsync being on.

Incidently, the 3.1s almost completely cured the issue for me but the 3.2s went really bad again.

The SS issue was game related-

Croteam say it's nVidia's drivers not reporting the correct available Z depth. And yes, the workaround does work as I used it on my Ti4600.

Textures wouldn't load. No error message, the S3TC textures just wouldn't work. After uninstalling the R9500P and popping in the GF4 I fired it up and they were working right off(with the ini file set for the Radeon).

Hmmm, mine worked after I upgraded the OpenGL renderer.

If there isn't anything to fix, why would you release new drivers?

I don't know, why don't you ask nVidia who have probably been releasing more drivers than ATi after the FX arrived? The problem is that most of them were leaked betas released in a shotgun style while ATi's were tested and WHQL certified.

 

[nRollo]

"The problem is that most of them were leaked betas released in a shotgun style while ATi's were tested and WHQL certified. "
Give it a rest already. I've been computer gaming for 15 years and I've never given a fat rat's a$$ whether or not my drivers are WHQL certified.

Who does?