GF 104 is 366mm2

[evolucion8]

Post # 57

And he backed it up with a link ,after evolucion8 said "

Overall, I think we all know a gtx 460 cannot match a 5870. But NEVER match it, yes it can.

Yeah, and I backed up my statements with over 4 links which contradicted his single link with cherry picked benchmark, because even with Metro 2033 which is in his same link, the HD 5870 utterly destroyed the GTX 460, the latter is not a HD 5870 killer, is a HD 5830 destroyer which does very well.

So no comment on the Xbit review then? Just going to ignore it and call me names?

As I stated "in newer DX11 games". This is what we are discussing.

Metro 2033 is one of the latest DX11 games currently which the HD 5870 outperforms the GTX 460 and it was under your very same Xbit's lab link that you posted, and I even posted the official GTX 460 review in the same Xbit's lab which shows that the HD 5870 outperforms the HGTX 460. Plus I backed up all my statements with lots of links and proofs and shows that you are a troll, troll, troll troll troll,

 

[Wreckage]

Metro 2033? Try looking at benchmarks with AA enabled.
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/19242/10

The Fermi-based GPUs have the advantage here, so much so that the GTX 460 1GB essentially matches the Radeon HD 5870.

I never said the 460 beats the 5870 in every game. You were the one who boasted that the 460 could only match a 5870 "in my dreams". I proved you wrong. Without all the personal attacks that ATI fans are allowed to violate the ToS with.

So stop twisting my words and calling me names, because it just brings down the whole forum.

 

[happy medium]

Metro 2033? Try looking at benchmarks with AA enabled.
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/19242/10

Quote from article:

"The Fermi-based GPUs have the advantage here, so much so that the GTX 460 1GB essentially matches the Radeon HD 5870."

Yeah, and I backed up my statements with over 4 links which contradicted his single link

I agree with your links, you make a good point, but I believe he also made a good point.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[evolucion8]

Metro 2033? Try looking at benchmarks with AA enabled.
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/19242/10

I never said the 460 beats the 5870 in every game. You were the one who boasted that the 460 could only match a 5870 "in my dreams". I proved you wrong. Without all the personal attacks that ATI fans are allowed to violate the ToS with.

So stop twisting my words and calling me names, because it just brings down the whole forum.

But why your Xbit's lab link review of the GTX 460 shows the opposite? The same very link that you posted earlier? So you are the one who's twisting your own words, not me. I proved you wrong and suddenly you post another link unrelated to the previous one that you posted and then said that I'm twisting your words!! Hillarious. Look here, more links!! Regarding ATi fans, I'm not an ATi fan, I do favor neutrality and hence, not denial, but I can see that nVidia fans like you can get away from the fud quite often.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...orce-gtx-460-1gb-gtx-460-768mb-review-12.html

Here shows the opposite, it can't even reach the HD 5850.

http://benchmarkreviews.com/index.p...k=view&id=558&Itemid=72&limit=1&limitstart=13

Here, it can't reach the GTX 470 which is only a hair slower than the HD 5870 with recent driver optimizations.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/nvidia-geforce-gtx-460_12.html#sect2

This game is tested without multisampling antialiasing as it worsens the textures and provokes a performance hit.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/07/12/nvidia_geforce_gtx_460_review/5

These three video (GTX 460 786MB, GTX 460 1GB, HD 5830) cards turned in approximately identical performances in Metro 2033. At 1920x1200, we had to lower our quality setting too far to make the game playable, so we chose to lower the resolution instead. At 1680x1050, we were able to play with the "High" setting in DX11 with tessellation enabled, on all three video cards. Metro 2033 remains one of the most demanding titles of the year, and between the GeForce GTX 460 and the Radeon HD 5830, there is no clear winner for performance. This is actually rather surprising as current high-end NVIDIA GPUs typically favor this game in performance compared to their AMD counterparts.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/07/26/geforce_gtx_460_sli_performance_vs_amd_gpus/

In Metro 2033, the Radeon HD 5970’s advantage over the GTX 460 SLI rig is severely diminished, but not completely eliminated. The HD 5970 finished 6% faster than the GTX 460 SLI setup, which was then 28% faster than the Radeon HD 5870.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/08/04/geforce_gtx_460_1gb_sli_vs_radeon_hd_5850_cfx

 

[Wreckage]

But why your Xbit's lab link review of the GTX 460 shows the opposite?

It doesn't. In your first graph they are not using AA , In the second graph the difference is a few dps....hmmm. That looks like the 460 can compete with the 5870 in newer DX11 games to me.

Why did you ignore the other 3 benchmarks where the 460 wins and the 4th where it essentially matches the 5870? Because it proves you wrong and that makes you furious.

Also why are you now dragging Crossfire and SLI into this? You are really grasping at straws here.

 

[happy medium]

Conclusion...
After looking at both your benchmarks of Metro, is it fair to say with AA enabled the gtx 460 competes to a 5870, without AA the 5870 wins?

Thats what I'm seeing.

Edit: the real question is ,why does the 5800 series take such a hit with AA enabled and Tessalation enabled.
I thought the gtx series uses cuda core power to use tessalation?

 

[evolucion8]

Yet, with AA on, both are unplayable, and using Standard AA degrades image quality considerably (I experiment that with my card), so is more of an engine bug than anything, AAA looks the best and runs better on the HD 5870 than on the GTX 460, period.

 

[happy medium]

Yet, with AA on, both are unplayable, and using Standard AA degrades image quality considerably (I experiment that with my card), so is more of an engine bug than anything, AAA looks the best and runs better on the HD 5870 than on the GTX 460, period.

agreed... but at 1650x1050 the gtx 460 is playable.
I think that was wreckages link.

 

[evolucion8]

agreed... but at 1650x1050 the gtx 460 is playable.
I think that was wreckages link.

And who told you that the HD 5870 don't? Running the game at such low resolution with the AA issue or implementation leaves a lot to be desired, it blurs the whole screen washing the texture detail, plus the impact in performance is noticeable, its clearly an issue with AMD hardware, because in many other scenarios, the HD 5870 is clearly the faster card. I could say that the GTX 460 isn't any faster than the GTX 260 because of this proof posted by toyota in which I have proof;

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/19242/7

Such tactics are clearly misleading and that's what Wreckage and you are doing, I can't say that the GTX 460 isn't any faster than the GTX 260 because of this, because in other scenarios isn't true, and you guys are stating that the GTX 460 is faster than the HD 5870 in DX11 when it only happened in Metro 2033 which clearly shows the AMD's issue with Anti Aliasing image quality and performance impact, because in other scenarios in which I posted links and proof, the HD 5870 is clearly the faster card. In Metro 2033 with AAA, the HD 5870 is still faster than the GTX 460

 

[Wreckage]

Such tactics are clearly misleading and that's what Wreckage and you are doing, I can't say that the GTX 460 isn't any faster than the GTX 260 because of this, because in other scenarios isn't true, and you guys are stating that the GTX 460 is faster than the HD 5870 in DX11 when it only happened in Metro 2033

Only in Metro 2033? Now who's being misleading.

How about Aliens vs Predator, Uniheaven, Stone Giant, Stalker?

Stop being so misleading. :thumbsdown:

 

[happy medium]

when it only happened in Metro 2033

Thats what I was saying. If you remember I did say overall the 5870 is faster.
But you said clearly the gtx 460 can never compete or "in your dreams" I think it was.

Thats a bold statement, which you clearly admit you were wrong with my above quote.

Wreckage is over the top most of the time , but in this case, I beleive he is right.

Looking back at benchmarks, it's clear Nvidia is much better in the direct x 11 games and tessalation games (latest games) whether the 230$ gtx 460 beats the 380$ 5870 or not.
Over all the gtx 460 does not compete, I completly agree.

There is no need for mud slinging, name calling, troll this ,troll that, I think we all learned alot from this discussion.

 

[evolucion8]

Only in Metro 2033? Now who's being misleading.

How about Aliens vs Predator, Uniheaven, Stone Giant, Stalker?

Stop being so misleading. :thumbsdown:

Do you play Unigine? Do you play Stone Giant? You just backed up your statement with a single link cherry picking the results, and I proved you wrong with lots of links from different sites, now who's biased and misleading here?

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-460-gf104-fermi,2684-9.html <<Another DX11 tittle here

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/19 <<I don't see the GTX 460 1GB matching the HD 5870 here

http://www.guru3d.com/article/geforce-gtx-460-review/16 <<Neither here

Close but no cigar...

 

[happy medium]

jeeeez you win . Just no compromise.

good luck.

 

[Compddd]

Don't bother arguing with Wreckage, he is a troll that should of been banned long ago just like Rollo.

 

[OCGuy]

Don't bother arguing with Wreckage, he is a troll that should of been banned long ago just like Rollo.

Actually he is posting multiple links to back up his statements, and not personally attacking anyone.

evo is also posting links to back up his assertions. I'm enjoying the discussion. Personal attacks like yours are exactly what we don't need in here.

 

[Wreckage]

Do you play Unigine? Do you play Stone Giant? You just backed up your statement with a single link cherry picking the results, and I proved you wrong with lots of links from different sites, now who's biased and misleading here?

A single link? I also linked to the Tech Report review. Not that it matters how many reviews I link to, you will either dismiss or ignore them. I'm using the Xbit review because it focuses on DX11 and uses newer drivers.

So stop with the personal attacks. You are the one who keeps posting misleading information. :thumbsdown:

Nothing I posted is misleading, this all started when you basically said the 460 could only win "in my dreams" 1 link is all that is needed to disprove that. As for my statement about the 460 competing. I think it does very well in newer DX11 games. Maybe not so much in older games (then again I could always bring up PhysX) but we were discussing DX11. It may not win every single DX11 benchmark nor does it need to for it to merely compete.

 

[evolucion8]

A single link? I also linked to the Tech Report review. Not that it matters how many reviews I link to, you will either dismiss or ignore them. I'm using the Xbit review because it focuses on DX11 and uses newer drivers.

So stop with the personal attacks. You are the one who keeps posting misleading information. :thumbsdown:

Nothing I posted is misleading, this all started when you basically said the 460 could only win "in my dreams" 1 link is all that is needed to disprove that. As for my statement about the 460 competing. I think it does very well in newer DX11 games. Maybe not so much in older games (then again I could always bring up PhysX) but we were discussing DX11. It may not win every single DX11 benchmark nor does it need to for it to merely compete.

Two links, wow, that's a lot of data to back you up? And what about my links? Are they wrong and yours are right? What can you say about the proof that I posted here? I've seen scenarios where the HD 5870 matches and outperforms the GTX 480, does it make it the better card? Please, stop twisting everything. The GTX 460 does well in DX11 tittles, but understand this, as posted with my links, will never be a match for the HD 5870, it may come close in some scenarios, like the HD 5870 to the GTX 480, but doesn't mean that is the better card. Stating that the GTX 460 is as fast as the HD 5870 is like stating that the GTX 460 is as fast as the GTX 470, is it?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3836/msis-geforce-n470gtx-gtx-470-sli/4

Video Drivers: NVIDIA ForceWare 197.13
NVIDIA ForceWare 257.15 Beta
NVIDIA ForceWare 258.80 Beta
AMD Catalyst 10.3a
AMD Catalyst 10.7

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3810/nvidias-geforce-gtx-460-part-2-the-vendor-cards/7

Video Drivers: NVIDIA ForceWare 197.13
NVIDIA ForceWare 257.15 Beta
NVIDIA ForceWare 258.80 Beta
AMD Catalyst 10.3a

With the latest drivers and yet, the HD 5870 is still faster than the GTX 460 in DX11 applications, if I'm wrong, Prove it... The ball is in your court.

 

[Wreckage]

Two links, wow, that's a lot of data to back you up? And what about my links? Are they wrong and yours are right? What can you say about the proof that I posted here? I've seen scenarios where the HD 5870 matches and outperforms the GTX 480, does it make it the better card? Please, stop twisting everything. The GTX 460 does well in DX11 tittles, but understand this, as posted with my links, will never be a match for the HD 5870, it may come close in some scenarios, like the HD 5870 to the GTX 480, but doesn't mean that is the better card. Stating that the GTX 460 is as fast as the HD 5870 is like stating that the GTX 460 is as fast as the GTX 470, is it? Prove it... The ball is in your court.

Did I say it was the better card? Again you are posting misleading information. Which card is better is truly an opinion. One might favor features over fps. Your links don't say anything. Did I say the 460 crushes the 5870? Nope I merely said in newer DX11 games it "competes".

The GTX 460 does well in DX11 tittles, but understand this, as posted with my links, will never be a match for the HD 5870, it may come close in some scenarios

See now this is just plain misleading. As the latest tests from Xbit show it matching and beating the 5870. So saying "never" is just plain false. Again the Tech Report backs this up. Now I agree the results vary by website. But never is an absolute which would mean I could not find any results.

You are truly posting nothing but blatantly false information. Combined with your personal attacks. I no longer care to discuss this with you. Besides the point that we have gone far offtopic. Continue your rant if you must, I have better things to do.

 

[Lonyo]

The argument is pointless.
Many cards can perform above their station given the right set of benchmarks, but it will never mean that on the whole they are better than a, well, better card.
The GTX460 can beat the HD5870. That's a fact. Does that mean it's a faster card? No.
Hell, the GTX275 can beat the GTX470 if you make the conditions right.
arguing about whether something that is true is true or not is pointless, since the fact that it's true isn't particularly important, it doesn't change the overall picture.

 

[Grooveriding]

The argument is pointless.
Many cards can perform above their station given the right set of benchmarks, but it will never mean that on the whole they are better than a, well, better card.
The GTX460 can beat the HD5870. That's a fact. Does that mean it's a faster card? No.
Hell, the GTX275 can beat the GTX470 if you make the conditions right.
arguing about whether something that is true is true or not is pointless, since the fact that it's true isn't particularly important, it doesn't change the overall picture.

That's just the point with this troll. To try and skew the truth of the overall picture.

He lay dormant until the 460 came out, then suddenly again reappeared on the forums from under the bridge, to bait and post garbage.

 

[SlowSpyder]

The argument is pointless.
Many cards can perform above their station given the right set of benchmarks, but it will never mean that on the whole they are better than a, well, better card.
The GTX460 can beat the HD5870. That's a fact. Does that mean it's a faster card? No.
Hell, the GTX275 can beat the GTX470 if you make the conditions right.
arguing about whether something that is true is true or not is pointless, since the fact that it's true isn't particularly important, it doesn't change the overall picture.

Agreed. The 460 does not compete with a 5870 despite matching it in a few benches. The 5870 is just the overall faster part. Claiming the 460 matches the 5870 would be like claiming the Radeon 2900 matched the 8800GTX because it scored better in 3D Mark.

The 460 is a great card where it's priced. The 5870 is a fine card for it's price range as well. They don't compete and are not meant to compete.

 

[evolucion8]

Did I say it was the better card? Again you are posting misleading information. Which card is better is truly an opinion. One might favor features over fps. Your links don't say anything. Did I say the 460 crushes the 5870? Nope I merely said in newer DX11 games it "competes".

If competes means losing, then it does compete very well.

See now this is just plain misleading. As the latest tests from Xbit show it matching and beating the 5870. So saying "never" is just plain false. Again the Tech Report backs this up. Now I agree the results vary by website. But never is an absolute which would mean I could not find any results.

Misleading? Why? I posted real links with even the latest drivers which aren't different from the current WHQL drivers, and yet, it still losing against the HD 5870, is that so hard to understand?

You are truly posting nothing but blatantly false information. Combined with your personal attacks. I no longer care to discuss this with you. Besides the point that we have gone far offtopic. Continue your rant if you must, I have better things to do.

Great, now we can have a civil discussion out without your misleading posts, personal attacks? Funny. I'm not the one who said first "Blatant Liar". Better things to do?, great, we don't miss you here and neither your blatantly false and mislead misinformation.

Lonyo is totally right, a single scenario will not change the overall picture of the card, but something is certain, nothing that you do, will ever change the overall picture of yourself here in this forum. C'ya!!

I also agree with SlowSpyder, they're not meant to compete together.

 

[bryanW1995]

we've been very lucky these last few months b/c it was hibernating. looks like the spring is here for the green team. I really hope that nvidia comes out with a great lineup of cards next round, but I must admit that having to read through all the green mumbo-jumbo to get useful information kind of puts a damper on my (and many others') enthusiasm.

If rollo were smart he would hire more people like keys who actually have a passion for nvidia hardware and can back up their statements with hard data, and run off wreckage and his ilk.

 

[Skurge]

Where are the mods? seriously, they need to clean this up. Some troll takes the entire thread off topic and not even a warning? Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[bryanW1995]

don't worry, it can't be as bad as the bad taste that fermi left in wreckage's mouth!