GF 104 is 366mm2

[HurleyBird]

http://www.nordichardware.com/news/71-graphics/40710-geforce-gtx-460-core-revealed.html

Early information has claimed a surface area of 366mm^2 with GF104, which is confirmed by these pictures. You can compare this to the 334mm^2 of Cypress and simply it means that NVIDIA can't make as many GPUs per silicon wafer as AMD can, and that the GF104 GPU is still more expensive than AMD's most expensive Cypress chip. This is no matter the quality of the manufacturing ot day, where AMD probably has the advantage with its more mature technology.
Keep in mind though that GF104 is sold at around $240 with GeForce GTX 460 1GB, while AMD is selling Radeon HD 5870 for around $360, even though the chip is considerably cheaper to manufacture.
The positive note for NVIDIA is that GeForce GTX 460 is a great graphics card with a well balanced GPu. The negative is that the cost margins are nowhere near those of the closest competitor.

Charlie was right....

 

[DefRef]

So? He's on ATI's payroll, not nVidia's, so why does he care if nV makes money or not? No matter what, he'll spin it as DOOM for Big Green. When the Fermi 2 comes out, it could be eight times as fast as the GTX 4xx cards and cost 1/4 as much and good ol' Chuckles will speak with ATI's hand up his arse, "nVidia can't make a card ten times faster than their last generation and include them in cereal boxes. SELL YOUR STOCK!!! GO ATI, YAY!!!!!"

 

[happy medium]

http://www.nordichardware.com/news/71-graphics/40710-geforce-gtx-460-core-revealed.html



Charlie was right....

I don't care if Nvidia makes 1$ on each chip, as long as they make cheaper cards that perform like the gtx 460 and sell at a good price/performance ratio.

 

[zerocool84]

I don't care if Nvidia makes 1$ on each chip, as long as they make cheaper cards that perform like the gtx 460 and sell at a good price/performance ratio.

I don't care who makes money with what. The competition is finally heating up again. Just need to wait for ATI to get their new stuff out so Nvidia can drop prices.

 

[cbn]

460 GTX may be sold for less money, but those are not full yield chips.

Wouldn't the 384 CUDA core Video card (not yet released) be a better comparison to HD5870.

 

[happy medium]

460 GTX may be sold for less money, but those are not full yield chips.

Wouldn't the 384 CUDA core Video card (not yet released) be a better comparison to HD5870.

You hit the nail right on the head.

5830 is to gtx 460 as gtx 475 is to 5870

 

[Skurge]

You hit the nail right on the head.

5850 is to gtx 460 as gtx 475 is to 5870

Fixed.

 

[OCGuy]

Now what percentage of people who buy discreet graphics cards care about this? Or even know what it means?

 

[happy medium]

You hit the nail right on the head.

5850 is to gtx 460 as gtx 475 is to 5870

Yea, the 5830 is to a gtx 460 768. Good call.

 

[brybir]

Now what percentage of people who buy discreet graphics cards care about this? Or even know what it means?

Its just the troll cycle. The same 5 or 6 people with the same statements will come here and snipe and condescend at each other.

The rest of us will ignore it, because we are interested in the hardware, price/performance and features of cards, not the business and design aspects that we have no control over except where to spend our money.

 

[happy medium]

Its just the troll cycle. The same 5 or 6 people with the same statements will come here and snipe and condescend at each other.

The rest of us will ignore it, because we are interested in the hardware, price/performance and features of cards, not the business and design aspects that we have no control over except where to spend our money.

So SO true.

 

[Skurge]

Now what percentage of people who buy discreet graphics cards care about this? Or even know what it means?

Just for interest sake I guess, some people have been wondering how big GF104 was. The Tech nerd in some us loves to know about this kind of thing.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

Why is everyone so surprised when Charlie is right? I don't know about pre-2008, but as of late he seems to be right on the money most of the time, even if he does dress it up as hyperbolically as possible.

 

[Skurge]

Its just the troll cycle. The same 5 or 6 people with the same statements will come here and snipe and condescend at each other.

The rest of us will ignore it, because we are interested in the hardware, price/performance and features of cards, not the business and design aspects that we have no control over except where to spend our money.

So why are you posting here?

 

[HurleyBird]

Why is everyone so surprised when Charlie is right? I don't know about pre-2008, but as of late he seems to be right on the money most of the time, even if he does dress it up as hyperbolically as possible.

It's just fun to say

But yeah, if you could separate the facts from the commentary, SA would be the best rumor site around. Less interesting though...

 

[AtenRa]

Why is everyone so surprised when Charlie is right? I don't know about pre-2008, but as of late he seems to be right on the money most of the time, even if he does dress it up as hyperbolically as possible.

I will like to remind you that Charlie was saying that the GF104 will be 405mm^2 and that it will have 210W.

The GF104/6/8 are based on the same architecture, more or less unchanged, so they are going to be a mess as well. Since they are smaller, around 405mm^2, 270mm^2 and 135mm^2, yields should improve proportionately, but still be way behind the competitive ATI chips.

http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/06/21/what-are-nvidias-gf104-gf106-and-gf108/


He had no clue about the GF104 specs at the time and he was making thinks up. He came to the conclusion that the GF104 will be 405mm^2 because 384 shaders are the 3/4 of the 512 shaders the GF100 has.

And after the GF104 was released and he found that it’s a little bigger than the Cypress Chip he started to say that NV selling the GF104 at a loss.

Im waiting to see what BS he will write about GF106

 

[dookulooku]

High end graphics cards draw a lot of power and require complex boards. On all Cypress, GF100, and GF104 products, the board and components are likely more expensive than the GPU itself. Even if GF104 was more expensive to manufacture than Cypress, it's board will considerably cheaper.

 

[waffleironhead]

Thanks for posting the info HurlyBird.

For the rest of you trolls in this thread. If you dont like the information being discussed in it, why no just GTFO? No one is forcing you to participate. You had to know what was going to be discussed before coming in.

 

[Dribble]

http://www.nordichardware.com/news/71-graphics/40710-geforce-gtx-460-core-revealed.html



Charlie was right....

So far the only links in this thread have nordic hardware, not Charlie, giving the actual size of the chip months after it was released, and Charlie giving completely the wrong size/power/etc just before it was released.

How exactly was Charlie right?

 

[HurleyBird]

I will like to remind you that Charlie was saying that the GF104 will be 405mm^2 and that it will have 210W.

Well, the 405mm2 number was an estimate, not Charlie reporting facts. Charlie's estimates tend to be somewhat... biased. He was I believe the first to publish the 366mm2 number as fact when lots of people were saying GF104 was smaller than cypress, hence the comment.

And I thought GF104 was around 210w...?

 

[AtenRa]

I am aware that he was the first to talk about the 366mm^2, but that happened after the GF104 was released. Anyone could take a card and open the heatsink and measure the Die size at that moment.

GTX460 1GB have 160W

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I will like to remind you that Charlie was saying that the GF104 will be 405mm^2 and that it will have 210W.

That was when GF104 was supposed to just be an unchanged half of GF100. At launch, about 3 weeks after the article was posted, it became obvious that GF104 was not just a half of GF100, and then ten days after that, he gave a revised value of GF104's die size that was correct to NordicHardware's estimate to within 1mm^2. Yes, he was wrong initially, but he was also right a hell of a long time before anyone else was.

And after the GF104 was released and he found that it’s a little bigger than the Cypress Chip he started to say that NV selling the GF104 at a loss.

He was saying GF104 couldn't compete profit-wise even when he thought GF104 was going to be smaller than Cypress.

I am aware that he was the first to talk about the 366mm^2, but that happened after the GF104 was released. Anyone could take a card and open the heatsink and measure the Die size at that moment.

Then why did it nearly take NordicHardware another 2 weeks to do it?

 

[Dribble]

Then why did it nearly take NordicHardware another 2 weeks to do it?

Because nobody cared?

Not convinced anyone cares in this thread either - it seems more about proving Charlie right/wrong.

Even if the chip size was 500mm2 but it performed as it does no one would really care, other then people trying to prove that nvidia must be loosing money on it. However even that sounds a bit hollow being as Charlie says every generation is too big/hot/slow and how it will be the end of nvidia and how they have to be loosing money, yet nvidia continue to exist, sell em cheap enough, and turn a profit.

 

[Scali]

I think die size can roughly have three consequences:

1) Large number of transistors -> large amount of current passing through -> heat/power/noise issues.
2) Higher production costs -> higher product price.
3) Lower profit margins.

In the case of GF104:
1) All reviews agree: no heat/power/noise issues, perfectly in line with ATi's offerings.
2) All reviews agree: Priced very well, many recommend the cards as best price/performance in their segment.
3) This would strictly be nVidia's problem. However, only time will tell whether there actually is a problem in the first place. Just because ATi makes more profit doesn't necessarily mean that nVidia is going to have trouble keeping their head above water.

 

[AtenRa]

Academically, its nice to know the actual Die size of the GF104, but other than that this alone doesn’t tell us the profit margins of the GTX460.

There are so many other factors (Yields, Binning, PCB cost etc) that influence the production cost of a video card that we don’t know, so we cant make a safe estimate if NV losses or gaining from the GTX460.