Germany's new boom: making money by making stuff

[Throckmorton]

1) I don't form useless opinions. Are US taxes higher than what?

2) VAT's aren't an argument. They're a tax.

3) I did answer. You just didn't like the answer you dishonest sack of shit.

4) How did you get by without taking any economics courses? You are oversimplifying. Germany could have more productive or educated labor for example. Or it could have better infrastructure that explains why things are still being produced there as opposed to China.

LOL, one day the rightwingers call Germany a socialist dystopia with high taxes and universal healthcare and unions... the next day when we find out they're doing a lot better than us in manufacturing and have a positive trade balance, suddenly everything is too complicated to talk about, and their complaints about Germany from the previous day are all strawmen.

 

[Infohawk]

LOL, one day the rightwingers call Germany a socialist dystopia with high taxes and universal healthcare and unions...

Where did I ever say that asshat? And don't try and say you weren't talking about me because you're obviously you're quoting my post for a reason. So please, find a post where I described Europe as a dystopia or admit you're full of shit. If anything I usually argue Europe is a lot like the US when debating Euro-haters like COW.

 

[Matt1970]

If you guys like Germany so much, move there. The fact remains the US just can't compete in manufacturing. Our costs are just way too high. Want to do something about it? Next time you go shopping for something, look for the "Made In USA" on the box.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

If you guys like Germany so much, move there. The fact remains the US just can't compete in manufacturing. Our costs are just way too high. Want to do something about it? Next time you go shopping for something, look for the "Made In USA" on the box.

Germany probably won't accept immigrants the way the U.S. does. (I suspect that the German government protects its population from global labor arbitrage.)

The U.S. can't compete in manufacturing because it's difficult to compete against nations that have what almost amounts to slave labor--fifty cents per hour and without labor and environmental protections. The U.S. can "compete" too just as soon as it's willing to match the price of labor. We can "compete" by transforming ourselves into an impoverished third world country where a tiny percentage of the population will be very rich with the rest being poor.

 

[Fern]

LOL, one day the rightwingers call Germany a socialist dystopia with high taxes and universal healthcare and unions... the next day when we find out they're doing a lot better than us in manufacturing and have a positive trade balance, suddenly everything is too complicated to talk about, and their complaints about Germany from the previous day are all strawmen.

I lived in Germany with my German GF for a couple years. I.e., not in some expat community.

The differences are complicated and numerous, and sometimes subtle yet powerful. E.g., German unions are much different than ours.

The German education system is also much different. They've got very valuable industrial knowlege they don't learn in University. In fact some their brightest most knowlegaeble people may noy even attend a university. Trade secrets/industrial knowlege is often handed down through families and firms, it's not leaned in schools, heck schools don't even know it and couldn't teach it if they wanted.

When I was there, Germans purchased German made products. They don't think anybody elses' is worth buying. I can't think of any American products they purchased. The only American stuff they consumed was pretty much limited to our entertainment products (music, movies, TV shows).

While trade protectionism is basically illegal, they absolutley had a very powerful, yet informal, trade protectionism in place. People just don't buy foreign made stuff. It's not written in law, they just don't do it. (Limited exceptions of luxury type items like French Champagne etc.)

I found Germans to be very collective, a lot of peer/societal pressure to conform to be a "Good German". It's very powerful.

Looking at abstract and statistical data such as minimal differences in income tax rates is almost useless given the many other powerful differences we can't see from such data.

Fern

 

[Zebo]

Germany is smart and understands there are only three methods of wealth: manufacture, grow, or mine something - everything else is a stripper off that wealth. We forgot and will be left with a bunch of lawyers, bankers, and salesmen fighting over dust.

 

[Jhhnn]

If you guys like Germany so much, move there. The fact remains the US just can't compete in manufacturing. Our costs are just way too high. Want to do something about it? Next time you go shopping for something, look for the "Made In USA" on the box.

That's nowhere near the truth. German labor is every bit as expensive as American labor. Our problem stems from the fact that we allow investment capital to escape, allowing higher profits for corporatists. It's not like they can't make money manufacturing in this country, just that they can make more doing it elsewhere, and we've been dumb enough and greedy enough to allow that to happen.

We're chumps to the notion of trickle down economics, and it's beginning to show, that's all. Investment in the means to make anything, other than housing, is extremely low in this ocuntry, and will remain so if we continue to allow margins to become profits, free ranging capital, hot money, rather than forcing greater reinvestment in existing businesses via higher taxation. Low taxes in this country strongly encourage dis-investment, profit taking, and low labor costs in other countries strongly encourage investment there.

 

[Infohawk]

I lived in Germany with my German GF for a couple years. I.e., not in some expat community.

Good post that re-affirms it's not as simple as rabid partisans on both sides would have people believe.

 

[Engineer]

Germany is smart and understands there are only three methods of wealth: manufacture, grow, or mine something - everything else is a stripper off that wealth. We forgot and will be left with a bunch of lawyers, bankers, and salesmen fighting over dust.

Absolutely agree.

 

[sportage]

Occurs to me... What if there were no Mexico next door to the US?
No easy outlet for cheap labor. No easy path to move product or build factories.
And why isnt Canada taking jobs and companies away from US soil?
hmmmm...

 

[Infohawk]

Occurs to me... What if there were no Mexico next door to the US?
No easy outlet for cheap labor. No easy path to move product or build factories.
And why isnt Canada taking jobs and companies away from US soil?
hmmmm...

The German equivalents would be North Africa and Turkey. But it's true that they aren't in the same trading block. If you're right then it's sad that Americans like to badger Europeans about letting Turkey into the EU.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Germany is smart and understands there are only three methods of wealth: manufacture, grow, or mine something - everything else is a stripper off that wealth. We forgot and will be left with a bunch of lawyers, bankers, and salesmen fighting over dust.

Lawyers aren't immune either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/business/global/05legal.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/science/05legal.html

 

[Zebo]

Absolutely agree.

It's true. Other than emotional and psychological wealth everything around you, everything you can call material wealth is manufactured, mined, or grown. The beautiful house you live in was manufactured and everything in it. The food we eat was grown and oil to get to work was mined. Ultimately all our wealth comes from the sun but how we extract wealth is by those 3 methods. When we don't we end up like Chad or any other third world shit hole with a low wage service economy.

 

[Infohawk]

Lawyers aren't immune either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/business/global/05legal.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/science/05legal.html

Not only lawyers but doctors and engineers. Do American-trained foreign engineers and doctors have any obligation to work in the US? In the past they have stayed but more and more are going back home. When a critical mass of the highly skilled trades are gone we will really be fucked.

 

[Matt1970]

That's nowhere near the truth. German labor is every bit as expensive as American labor. Our problem stems from the fact that we allow investment capital to escape, allowing higher profits for corporatists. It's not like they can't make money manufacturing in this country, just that they can make more doing it elsewhere, and we've been dumb enough and greedy enough to allow that to happen.

We're chumps to the notion of trickle down economics, and it's beginning to show, that's all. Investment in the means to make anything, other than housing, is extremely low in this ocuntry, and will remain so if we continue to allow margins to become profits, free ranging capital, hot money, rather than forcing greater reinvestment in existing businesses via higher taxation. Low taxes in this country strongly encourage dis-investment, profit taking, and low labor costs in other countries strongly encourage investment there.

BS, we lost our edge in the 70's and even before that when people started buying foreign cars, TV's, and just about everything else that Americans could buy cheaper. I have sold everything form Guitars to Home Stereo's and after countless hours on the phone with these companies the resounding answer has always been they just can't make stuff in the US cheap enough and it isn't just labor. Trickle down Economics? Really? Stop getting all your facts from Olberman and Maddow. We had the Exact opposite of trickle down economics with the 70% tax rate in the late 70's upper income tax rate and we were in quite a shithole then.

 

[Matt1970]

When I was there, Germans purchased German made products. They don't think anybody elses' is worth buying. I can't think of any American products they purchased. The only American stuff they consumed was pretty much limited to our entertainment products (music, movies, TV shows).

While trade protectionism is basically illegal, they absolutley had a very powerful, yet informal, trade protectionism in place. People just don't buy foreign made stuff. It's not written in law, they just don't do it. (Limited exceptions of luxury type items like French Champagne etc.)

You couldn't have hit the nail on the head more accurately. Americans on the hand other will consistenly purchase the cheapest thing off the shelf and then bitch at jobs being sent overseas. Sorry folks, jobs follow the money and when you send your money overseas, so you send the jobs.

 

[Matt1970]

Anyone remember all the campaigning we had in the 70's and early 80's for people to buy American made products? We were warned then. Did we listen? Hardly. Remember them telling you something like for every foreign made car you buy, America loses 1.5 jobs? Same goes for you tv's, your shoes and clothes, and just about everything else you have in your house.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

I lived in Germany with my German GF for a couple years. I.e., not in some expat community.

The differences are complicated and numerous, and sometimes subtle yet powerful. German unions are much different than ours.

The German education system is much different. They've got very valuable industrial knowlege they don't learn in University. In fact some their brightest most knowlegaeble people may noy even attend a university. Trade secrets/industrial knowlege is often handed down through families and firms, it's not leaned in schools, heck schools don't even know it and couldn't teach it if they wanted.

When I was there, Germans purchased German made products. They don't think anybody elses' is worth buying. I can't think of any American products they purchased. The only American stuff they consumed was pretty much limited to our entertainment products (music, movies, TV shows).

While trade protectionism is basically illegal, they absolutley had a very powerful, yet informal, trade protectionism in place. People just don't buy foreign made stuff. It's not written in law, they just don't do it. (Limited exceptions of luxury type items like French Champagne etc.)

I found Germans to be very collective, a lot of peer/societal pressure to conform to be a "Good German". It's very powerful.

Looking at abstract and statistical data such as minimal differences in income rates is almost useless given the many other powerful differences we can't see from such data.

Fern

:hmm: germans and nationalism

btw, my sister lives in germany and i didn't notice this as much as you did for what its worth. they ate plenty of mcdonalds, drove a bunch of fords and had iphones.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

It's true. Other than emotional and psychological wealth everything around you, everything you can call material wealth is manufactured, mined, or grown. The beautiful house you live in was manufactured and everything in it. The food we eat was grown and oil to get to work was mined. Ultimately all our wealth comes from the sun but how we extract wealth is by those 3 methods. When we don't we end up like Chad or any other third world shit hole with a low wage service economy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12774290

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

When I was there, Germans purchased German made products. They don't think anybody elses' is worth buying.

Cause it isn't. Germans are well known for their engineering and manufacturing expertise. But of course, having read the article, you would know that

 

[Jhhnn]

BS, we lost our edge in the 70's and even before that when people started buying foreign cars, TV's, and just about everything else that Americans could buy cheaper. I have sold everything form Guitars to Home Stereo's and after countless hours on the phone with these companies the resounding answer has always been they just can't make stuff in the US cheap enough and it isn't just labor. Trickle down Economics? Really? Stop getting all your facts from Olberman and Maddow. We had the Exact opposite of trickle down economics with the 70% tax rate in the late 70's upper income tax rate and we were in quite a shithole then.

Funny what people believe, particularly Righties. If you had the vaguest idea what you're talking about, you'd know that inflation adjusted median household incomes actually peaked in the 70's.

http://nrmarketwatch.com/2010/02/11/men-in-peak-earning-years-at-front-of-economic-decline/

Trickledown is the part where they're pissin' down your leg, telling you it's raining...

 

[lothar]

Anyone remember all the campaigning we had in the 70's and early 80's for people to buy American made products? We were warned then. Did we listen? Hardly. Remember them telling you something like for every foreign made car you buy, America loses 1.5 jobs? Same goes for you tv's, your shoes and clothes, and just about everything else you have in your house.

And I should care because?

Why should I buy an inferior product all for the sake of "buying American"?
Why should I buy a car built by GM workers in Mexico when I can buy a Honda built by workers here in the US?
Why should I buy an inferior GE, Whirlpool, Kenmore, or Maytag washing machine/dryer/dishwasher/stove/refrigerator/microwave over an LG, Panasonic, or a Samsung version?
Why should I buy an inferior Motorola phone over an HTC one?
Why buy an inferior Kodak camera over a Canon or Panasonic one?

When it comes to my money I buy whatever I feel offers the best value/features/performance for what I'm willing to spend. I'm not a "buy American" robot.
"Buying American" only works when the American product is either on par or superior to it's foreign counterpart, not when it is inferior.

 

[freegeeks]

the figures just speak for itself and it's not only Germany. The EU in general is an exporting powerhouse. Basically, the Germans make stuff that other countries want and need

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

 

[lothar]

the figures just speak for itself and it's not only Germany. The EU in general is an exporting powerhouse. Basically, the Germans make stuff that other countries want and need

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_exports

Then that list proves that having mandatory union representation on the board of directors is not required for a company to have high exports.

Unless Phokus can prove to us that China, Japan, France, South Korea, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, UK, and Belgium all have mandatory union representation at the company board of directors.

 

[Throckmorton]

I lived in Germany with my German GF for a couple years. I.e., not in some expat community.

The differences are complicated and numerous, and sometimes subtle yet powerful. German unions are much different than ours.

The German education system is much different. They've got very valuable industrial knowlege they don't learn in University. In fact some their brightest most knowlegaeble people may noy even attend a university. Trade secrets/industrial knowlege is often handed down through families and firms, it's not leaned in schools, heck schools don't even know it and couldn't teach it if they wanted.

When I was there, Germans purchased German made products. They don't think anybody elses' is worth buying. I can't think of any American products they purchased. The only American stuff they consumed was pretty much limited to our entertainment products (music, movies, TV shows).

While trade protectionism is basically illegal, they absolutley had a very powerful, yet informal, trade protectionism in place. People just don't buy foreign made stuff. It's not written in law, they just don't do it. (Limited exceptions of luxury type items like French Champagne etc.)

I found Germans to be very collective, a lot of peer/societal pressure to conform to be a "Good German". It's very powerful.

Looking at abstract and statistical data such as minimal differences in income rates is almost useless given the many other powerful differences we can't see from such data.

Fern

Sounds like Americans could use some pressure to be good Americans and buy American. There is a "buy local" movement, but that seems to be about piddly stuff like a few locally produced vegetables a month.... most of those granola munchers still buy a Prius rather than a Volt.