German exchange student killed in Montana by home owner.

[werepossum]

I'm saying he probably COULD have killed us...and he DID shoot us both, just with rock salt, not lead. If he'd have caught us breaking into his house, or burglarizing his garage, killing us would have been very justified.(and it was my cousin's neighbor...not mine.)
It DID make a strong point with me. I never stole watermelons again. :whiste:

No one has the right to steal from anyone else. If you've ever been robbed or had your house burgled, there's much more to the loss than just the loss of your possessions. You also lose your sense of privacy and security. You usually feel.......violated.
Thieves should be lined up and shot...or publicly executed. (hold it in the town square, sell tickets or Pay-per-View programming.

Hell, it was just a bit more than 100 years ago that horse thieves were hung for their crimes...

Maybe he saw The Hunt for Red October...

and felt like he just HAD to go...

Well said. In theory I agree that being shot dead should be a reasonable workplace risk for a thief. In practice, assuming he did set him up and shot him dead, that seems to me to be a bit more cold-blooded than society is willing to accept today.

As you cannot tell the difference between a vagina and a toaster, I don't think you're qualified to know the difference between a human being and an animal.

lol Preferring a toaster does not necessarily equate to not being able to tell the difference. In fact, preferring the toaster pretty much requires being able to tell the difference.

 

[hal2kilo]

Meh...me and one of my cousins got peppered with rock salt when we were kids (I was 9)...we got caught raiding one of his neighbors' watermelon patch on a warm summer evening.
Getting shot was painful as hell...but having it picked out and then soaking the rest out in a hot bath was even worse...😱

Personally, in this case and the Minnesota case, I think the homeowners were justified in their shootings. Thieves should be killed. Whether it's by those from whom they're stealing...or by the courts following a trial...If you catch a thief...you should be able to shoot the fucking fuck.

Armed robbery, burglary, forcible rape, child molestation...those are just a few of the crimes that should carry an automatic death sentence.

Ok, so you are retired. You taken get off my lawn to a new level.

 

[HumblePie]

Hrmm, strange case.

In Texas what the home owner did may or may not have been legal. Hard to tell. In Texas, trespassing after daylight allows for a homeowner to legally shoot anyone on their property. But the trespass is defined as someone specifically knowing they are in a place they shouldn't be.

If the garage was initially closed and the German guy opened the garage door then that would certainly constitute a forceable entry and be grounds for legally justifying the shooting here. If there was a sign, or a fence, or hell even rope that looked like it was trying to tell people not to enter the open garage, then that would definitely be grounds for the home owner to shoot.

But an open garage can be seen as an invitation. Just like the driveway/sidewalk leading up to your front door is not an area where it is considered an area that a stranger walking upon would be trespassing. Not unless there was a sign saying not to do so.

I think with the garage door being open, the case is certainly there for murder charges. Still, WTF is someone doing in another person's garage after midnight even if the garage was open? While I think there is a strong case for murder, I am not having any sympathy for the person killed at all.

 

[werepossum]

Ok, so you are retired. You taken get off my lawn to a new level.

Don't break into my home & steal my stuff /= get off my lawn. That's an amazing level of fail, dude. You should work for the government where that level of fail is richly rewarded.

 

[HumblePie]

Updates:


Sounds like good shoot to me.

Well this sheds a different light on the case. A garage mostly closed is not an open invitation to that part of the property for the public. Nor can it be considered as such. A reasonable person seeing a garage mostly closed would think there is something wrong with the door preventing it from closing all the way, and not as an open invitation to enter.

The teen opened the garage door (forcible entry), actively searched for something to steal (the purse) and was shot in response.

If those are the actual facts of the case the guy won't go to jail.


Side note.

I am so sad no one in this thread has made the following statement, "Kaarma is a bitch!"

 

[spidey07]

Updates:


Sounds like good shoot to me.

Yep. Good shoot. Crossed the threshold and entered the home (garage counts as part of the home, that's the threshold. It's the same as if they had entered your home via the front door.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Yep. Good shoot. Crossed the threshold and entered the home (garage counts as part of the home, that's the threshold. It's the same as if they had entered your home via the front door.

I am not so sure. Montana law requires a reasonable apprehension of assault or a forcible felony to justify use of force. "Forcible felony" is narrowly defined and does not include mere burglary. I quoted the statutes earlier in this thread. Given the evidence of premeditation here I would not be surprised if a murder charge is brought. Very similar to our Byron Smith case in MN (which led to two Murder One convictions) in that respect.

 

[werepossum]

Well this sheds a different light on the case. A garage mostly closed is not an open invitation to that part of the property for the public. Nor can it be considered as such. A reasonable person seeing a garage mostly closed would think there is something wrong with the door preventing it from closing all the way, and not as an open invitation to enter.

The teen opened the garage door (forcible entry), actively searched for something to steal (the purse) and was shot in response.

If those are the actual facts of the case the guy won't go to jail.


Side note.

I am so sad no one in this thread has made the following statement, "Kaarma is a bitch!"

😀

I am not so sure. Montana law requires a reasonable apprehension of assault or a forcible felony to justify use of force. "Forcible felony" is narrowly defined and does not include mere burglary. I quoted the statutes earlier in this thread. Given the evidence of premeditation here I would not be surprised if a murder charge is brought. Very similar to our Byron Smith case in MN (which led to two Murder One convictions) in that respect.

Morally it would certainly be easier to take had these people peppered the perps with rock salt and bacon rind rather than lead.

 

[OCGuy]

No Montana jury will convict him even if indicted/charged.

You have no idea how much they value 2A and the ability to protect one's home, even in the "liberal" town of Missoula (flew out of there a week ago).

Montana has a whole week out of every year dedicated to 2A, where OC and general firearms recreation is encouraged and celebrated.

 

[JulesMaximus]

My neighbor left his garage door open all day a couple years ago. I noticed and it didn't look like they were home so I went into his garage, hit the close button and high tailed it out of there before the door closed.

I guess if he was home I should be dead.

 

[MongGrel]

You've obviously never been there. Lemme guess, Idaho is even worse, amirite?

no offense intended, and I've liked many of your other posts, but most the time I see anyone type amirite I deduct 50 IQ points in my mind.

 

[cyclohexane]

Yep. Good shoot. Crossed the threshold and entered the home (garage counts as part of the home, that's the threshold. It's the same as if they had entered your home via the front door.

A neighbor's kid once came into my house to get his baseball out of the yard, should he have been shot to death? Please answer.

 

[davmat787]

no offense intended, and I've liked many of your other posts, but most the time I see anyone type amirite I deduct 50 IQ points in my mind.

No offense taken on my part, if you've never been to Idaho or Montana you're the one getting the short end. As for 'amirite', I rarely use it, and only use to ensure my derision is evident. 😀

For some reason, people ripping on other people or cultures because of geography has really been eating at me. Don't know why, just pisses me off.

So now the dead kid was here as a guest of our country? Several years ago in FL, foreign tourists were targeted as they were an easy mark due to naivete of bad areas and trying to cope with FL drivers. When some deliberately targets foreigners like this, I think the judge should have authority to increase the maximum sentence by upto 50%.

They are guests here, and to send them back in a casket really gets at me too.

 

[spidey07]

My neighbor left his garage door open all day a couple years ago. I noticed and it didn't look like they were home so I went into his garage, hit the close button and high tailed it out of there before the door closed.

I guess if he was home I should be dead.

No, he knew you. I have the same agreement with my neighbors. But I close their door and un-ass outta that garage right quick. Or we call each other.

In KY the garage is part of the threshold/dwelling if it is attached.

 

[OCGuy]

A neighbor's kid once came into my house to get his baseball out of the yard, should he have been shot to death? Please answer.

If the homeowner was startled and feared for their safety, he could have been shot. Asking if they "should" have been shot is attaching emotion to the law, which is very clinical in nature, even in life and death situations.

 

[werepossum]

No offense taken on my part, if you've never been to Idaho or Montana you're the one getting the short end. As for 'amirite', I rarely use it, and only use to ensure my derision is evident. 😀

For some reason, people ripping on other people or cultures because of geography has really been eating at me. Don't know why, just pisses me off.

So now the dead kid was here as a guest of our country? Several years ago in FL, foreign tourists were targeted as they were an easy mark due to naivete of bad areas and trying to cope with FL drivers. When some deliberately targets foreigners like this, I think the judge should have authority to increase the maximum sentence by upto 50%.

They are guests here, and to send them back in a casket really gets at me too.

For the geography thing, me too - although for obvious reasons we in the South tend to not have that problem. lol

For the kid being a guest of our country, I disagree. Guests should not rob their hosts.

 

[spidey07]

A neighbor's kid once came into my house to get his baseball out of the yard, should he have been shot to death? Please answer.

Don't conflate the law or issue at hand.

Did the neighbor's kid cross the threshold into your occupied dwelling which includes your garage?

How did he come into your house to retrieve said ball in your yard and at what time was it? How did he gain entry to your house if was retrieving a ball from the yard? Your post makes no sense.

 

[nehalem256]

I am not so sure. Montana law requires a reasonable apprehension of assault or a forcible felony to justify use of force. "Forcible felony" is narrowly defined and does not include mere burglary. I quoted the statutes earlier in this thread.

Like for instance:

the unknown intruder entered their partially-open garage and headed toward the entrance of their kitchen.

Given the evidence of premeditation here I would not be surprised if a murder charge is brought.

By which you mean leaving your garage door partially open to let out the smoke from your cigarettes and leaving a purse hiding in the corner that no one can see from the street?

Very similar to our Byron Smith case in MN (which led to two Murder One convictions) in that respect.[/QUOTE]

Well except instead of dragging the kid to another room to deliver a kill shot this happened:

Ryan says after Dede had been struck, Kaarma's wife attempted life-saving procedures and comforted Diren.

 

[nehalem256]

A neighbor's kid once came into my house to get his baseball out of the yard, should he have been shot to death? Please answer.

I would guess that would depend on if you are the type of "man" to fear assault from a 8 year old?:sneaky:

 

[spidey07]

I am not so sure. Montana law requires a reasonable apprehension of assault or a forcible felony to justify use of force. "Forcible felony" is narrowly defined and does not include mere burglary. I quoted the statutes earlier in this thread. Given the evidence of premeditation here I would not be surprised if a murder charge is brought. Very similar to our Byron Smith case in MN (which led to two Murder One convictions) in that respect.

Then that fucked up state has no Castle Doctrine.

The core of Castle Doctrine is that if somebody enters your dwelling (or occupied vehicle or mode or transportation like a bike or car) and crosses the threshold illegally the home owner automatically presumes, per law, fear of GBH or death. It is this presumption that make Castle Doctrine.

Don't enter illegally, don't get dead. Really is that simple.

 

[OCGuy]

Then that fucked up state has no Castle Doctrine.

The core of Castle Doctrine is that if somebody enters your dwelling and crosses the threshold illegally the home owner automatically presumes, per law, fear of GBH or death.

The homeowner is in trouble because he had previously made comments about harming kids. Otherwise this wouldn't have even made the local paper.

Montana is the absolute epitome of a gold-star 2A state. This just happens to have some extra details.

 

[MongGrel]

No offense taken on my part, if you've never been to Idaho or Montana you're the one getting the short end. As for 'amirite', I rarely use it, and only use to ensure my derision is evident. 😀

For some reason, people ripping on other people or cultures because of geography has really been eating at me. Don't know why, just pisses me off.

So now the dead kid was here as a guest of our country? Several years ago in FL, foreign tourists were targeted as they were an easy mark due to naivete of bad areas and trying to cope with FL drivers. When some deliberately targets foreigners like this, I think the judge should have authority to increase the maximum sentence by upto 50%.

They are guests here, and to send them back in a casket really gets at me too.

I had in-laws in Washington State and have been there,and grew up in the Midwest, I'm sure I know the mental set.

Yeah, my wife and I rented a car going over to Miami about 15 years ago for a conference, and at the time the rental car companies recommendations were if you get rear ended drive off.

Tampa is a bit different, even then.

 

[davmat787]

For the geography thing, me too - although for obvious reasons we in the South tend to not have that problem. lol

For the kid being a guest of our country, I disagree. Guests should not rob their hosts.

Sorry if I was not clear, at the point I was referring to convicted felons who harmed, even targeted, foreign visitors/guests as they were an easy mark. That deserves a harsher sentence IMO, not only are they guests but incidences against foreigners plays a huge role in PR world wide.

Maybe its my Hungarian blood and their sense of duty when it comes to guests.

 

[davmat787]

I had in-laws in Washington State and have been there,and grew up in the Midwest, I'm sure I know the mental set.

Yeah, my wife and I rented a care going over to Miami about 15 years ago for a conference, and at the time the rental car companies recommendations were if you get rear ended drive off.

Tampa is a bit different, even then.

I took a nonstop on Alaska from SEA to MIA about ten years ago, first time in FL, stayed in Ft. Lauderdale. Wished I spent more time in the 'glades and had been able to fish, maybe even take a charter for a half day.

I know people rip on FL a lot, but if you like the boating/fishing lifestyle, it is hard to beat.

Cocaine is real cheap there too.

 

[spidey07]

The homeowner is in trouble because he had previously made comments about harming kids. Otherwise this wouldn't have even made the local paper.

Montana is the absolute epitome of a gold-star 2A state. This just happens to have some extra details.

Then that's what I don't get?

thug enters garage (occupied dwelling), thug gets dead. What's the story?

Oh, I know....mah baby didn do nuffin.