German exchange student killed in Montana by home owner.

[Zaap]

The cops do it every day. Ever see the TV show "Bait Car"?

But that's the police, setting criminals up to *arrest* them.

But a private citizen... to kill someone? Different thing altogether.

I could see setting this trap maybe to catch someone stealing on video so they could later be arrested, but execution on the spot is not justified if you ask me.

 

[Theb]

I wonder what the video shows. I'm sure a bad egg could sneak through from time to time, but in general being a foreign exchange student requires good grades + no discipline issues.

 

[fskimospy]

But that's the police, setting criminals up to *arrest* them.

But a private citizen... to kill someone? Different thing altogether.

I could see setting this trap maybe to catch someone stealing on video so they could later be arrested, but execution on the spot is not justified if you ask me.

I think this is the first post of yours I have ever agreed with.

I feel like most reasonable people can agree that a homeowner has a right to defend their home against intruders. That doesn't extend to setting traps for people that you then murder.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'd rather they catch the thief on video and bring that to police.

I'm conflicted about a "right" to kill anyone on your property. While I support self defense, I recall the drunk woman who was shot and killed at a front door. That was very much wrong, and so was this.

Check your target. If you know their intent, okay... they have a weapon or made threats in the past... but blind shooting? No threat? I cannot support it. I must condemn, no?

 

[brycejones]

I noticed both of them avoided the Minnesota thread too. Although didn't Spatial get banned for 'asking questions' about 'The Negroes' a few weeks ago?

I was wondering if one of them finally went round the bend.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

I'd rather they catch the thief on video and bring that to police.

I'm conflicted about a "right" to kill anyone on your property. While I support self defense, I recall the drunk woman who was shot and killed at a front door. That was very much wrong, and so was this.

Check your target. If you know their intent, okay... they have a weapon or made threats in the past... but blind shooting? No threat? I cannot support it. I must condemn, no?

The problem I have with it, especially recently, is the attitude of "kill em all!" that seems to keep coming up. There's no empathy whatsoever. Just scrambling to find any possible reason to validate killing another person.

Maybe it's just me but I think there needs to be a greater divide between I had to kill vs I legally could kill.

 

[Kadarin]

http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/776.08

Assuming Montana to have a similar definition. Seems like stealing said purse would be a forcible felony.

Did the guy actually steal the purse, or was he simply in the garage?

 

[davmat787]

I don't think the garage setup would qualify as a mantrap (DVC?), but if it is ruled to be one and the alleged comments to the hairdresser are admitted as evidence the guy is toast.

 

[CitizenKain]

What really stands out is this guy was scared for his family's life, so he leaves them alone to go play urban transplant cowboy in his yard.

 

[theeedude]

I can't feel sympathy for the guy. I mean he brought it on himself. Nobody forced him to go to Montana.

 

[davmat787]

The problem I have with it, especially recently, is the attitude of "kill em all!" that seems to keep coming up. There's no empathy whatsoever. Just scrambling to find any possible reason to validate killing another person.

Maybe it's just me but I think there needs to be a greater divide between I had to kill vs I legally could kill.

The kill the all attitude you speak of I both think and hope is simply the venting of anger or whatever on the internet.

The last thing I hope to use a gun for is to shoot someone with it in self defense. Every gun owner I know feels the same.

Even ignoring the potential death, there will.potentially be enormous court costs, the loss of ones right to own a firearm, having your name dragged through the mud, .etc which could all occur even if you end up with a not guilty verdict.

In short, not worth it unless there truly is mortal danger.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Sounds very similar to the Minnesota case that just got the home owner life in prison (and rightfully so).




They basically set a trap up. Pre-mediation should get them a long time in jail. Yes, the kid shouldn't have wandered into the garage, but who knows why he was doing that? He could have been doing something completely innocent and just checking on why a garage was left open and dark.

yep, first thing i thought as well when i read it. chances are this guy should go to jail, and rightfully so.

to stop an imminent crime is one thing, but to bait said crime is essentially premeditation IMO.

 

[shira]

Meh...me and one of my cousins got peppered with rock salt when we were kids (I was 9)...we got caught raiding one of his neighbors' watermelon patch on a warm summer evening.
Getting shot was painful as hell...but having it picked out and then soaking the rest out in a hot bath was even worse...😱

Personally, in this case and the Minnesota case, I think the homeowners were justified in their shootings. Thieves should be killed. Whether it's by those from whom they're stealing...or by the courts following a trial...If you catch a thief...you should be able to shoot the fucking fuck.

Armed robbery, burglary, forcible rape, child molestation...those are just a few of the crimes that should carry an automatic death sentence.

So you're saying that when you were a kid, you neighbor should have killed you for trespassing and stealing his property?

 

[shira]

A simple guide to defending your property:

1. Put your IPhone on your driveway, next to the sidewalk.
2. Set up a deer stand in a nearby tree. Make sure to stock it with plenty of energy drinks, granola bars and peanuts/cashews (your preference)
3. Sit in deer stand with a high caliber hunting rifle.
4. When someone walks by and notices the unattended IPhone in your driveway aim carefully and release your safety.
5. When the person steps onto your driveway shoot the repeatedly. IMPORTANT. They must have at least one foot on your driveway
6. Leave the deer stand with your sidearm (any side arm will do, accuracy won't matter here). Approach the person you shot. If they are still breathing deliver a "Clean finishing blow," with a single bullet to the head at point blank range.
7. Move the body to somewhere that other people will not notice
8. Wait 24 hours.
9. Call police. Claim self-defense.
10. Repeat as needed to eliminate all the criminal thugs from your neighborhood.

This may have been posted as an over-the-top example, but I guarantee you that the castle-law fanatics on this forum think that steps 1 through 5 constitute a "good shoot."

 

[davmat787]

I can't feel sympathy for the guy. I mean he brought it on himself. Nobody forced him to go to Montana.

You've obviously never been there. Lemme guess, Idaho is even worse, amirite?

 

[BoomerD]

So you're saying that when you were a kid, you neighbor should have killed you for trespassing and stealing his property?

I'm saying he probably COULD have killed us...and he DID shoot us both, just with rock salt, not lead. If he'd have caught us breaking into his house, or burglarizing his garage, killing us would have been very justified.(and it was my cousin's neighbor...not mine.)
It DID make a strong point with me. I never stole watermelons again. :whiste:

No one has the right to steal from anyone else. If you've ever been robbed or had your house burgled, there's much more to the loss than just the loss of your possessions. You also lose your sense of privacy and security. You usually feel.......violated.
Thieves should be lined up and shot...or publicly executed. (hold it in the town square, sell tickets or Pay-per-View programming.

Hell, it was just a bit more than 100 years ago that horse thieves were hung for their crimes...

I can't feel sympathy for the guy. I mean he brought it on himself. Nobody forced him to go to Montana.

Maybe he saw The Hunt for Red October...

I would like to have seen Montana

and felt like he just HAD to go...

 

[Ventanni]

Some dude breaks down your door and has a weapon in hand while you're watching TV, and you shoot him, then alright, I'm fine with castle law here. That's what it's intended for; it lets people defend themselves. You leave your garage door open with motion sensors in a plan to kill whoever steps foot on your property? That's not castle law, that's premeditated murder. It's also irresponsible as a home owner, and no real man would ever do something so stupid to protect his family. That's going too far.

It's like the guys who march down the street with unconcealed weaponry because the law allows them to do so, claiming they're just doing it to support their gun rights. Did you really think this one through?

I do have one question though. In these recent cases of overboard castle law, the home owner has stated that it had been occurring multiple times to their property. Was the police ever called? Did they ever do anything?

 

[JTsyo]

A simple guide to defending your property:

1. Put your IPhone on your driveway, next to the sidewalk.
2. Set up a deer stand in a nearby tree. Make sure to stock it with plenty of energy drinks, granola bars and peanuts/cashews (your preference)
3. Sit in deer stand with a high caliber hunting rifle.
4. When someone walks by and notices the unattended IPhone in your driveway aim carefully and release your safety.
5. When the person steps onto your driveway shoot the repeatedly. IMPORTANT. They must have at least one foot on your driveway
6. Leave the deer stand with your sidearm (any side arm will do, accuracy won't matter here). Approach the person you shot. If they are still breathing deliver a "Clean finishing blow," with a single bullet to the head at point blank range.
7. Move the body to somewhere that other people will not notice
8. Wait 24 hours.
9. Call police. Claim self-defense.
10. Repeat as needed to eliminate all the criminal thugs from your neighborhood.

To think even the army took heat for this. They would leave a bait UXO in the field and when the insurgents came to recover it, they got snipped.

 

[JTsyo]

Some dude breaks down your door and has a weapon in hand while you're watching TV, and you shoot him, then alright, I'm fine with castle law here. That's what it's intended for; it lets people defend themselves. You leave your garage door open with motion sensors in a plan to kill whoever steps foot on your property? That's not castle law, that's premeditated murder. It's also irresponsible as a home owner, and no real man would ever do something so stupid to protect his family. That's going too far.

...

Maybe there was a Death Wish marathon and he got ideas from Death Wish 3.

 

[nehalem256]

yep, first thing i thought as well when i read it. chances are this guy should go to jail, and rightfully so.

to stop an imminent crime is one thing, but to bait said crime is essentially premeditation IMO.

Sounds like you are arguing the teen in question was basically an animal. In fact I believe for the last case the prosecutor made a comparison to deer hunting even.

Putting down a wild animal that wanders into your garage isn't murder.

EDIT: And so based on your logic is a woman who goes out wearing a short skirt baiting men into having sex with her?

 

[fskimospy]

Sounds like you are arguing the teen in question was basically an animal. In fact I believe for the last case the prosecutor made a comparison to deer hunting even.

Putting down a wild animal that wanders into your garage isn't murder.

Can you quote the relevant case law that supports this argument?

 

[jman19]

Sounds like you are arguing the teen in question was basically an animal. In fact I believe for the last case the prosecutor made a comparison to deer hunting even.

Putting down a wild animal that wanders into your garage isn't murder.

EDIT: And so based on your logic is a woman who goes out wearing a short skirt baiting men into having sex with her?

We get it, you have some sick, unhealthy relationship with women and always take the male-victim approach.

 

[TheVrolok]

It appears that this guy should do serious time under Montana law, and rightfully so. Wouldn't be surprised if the partner does some time as well. Seriously mentally ill people.

 

[Daverino]

Sounds like you are arguing the teen in question was basically an animal. In fact I believe for the last case the prosecutor made a comparison to deer hunting even.

Putting down a wild animal that wanders into your garage isn't murder.

EDIT: And so based on your logic is a woman who goes out wearing a short skirt baiting men into having sex with her?

As you cannot tell the difference between a vagina and a toaster, I don't think you're qualified to know the difference between a human being and an animal.

 

[nehalem256]

Updates:

Ryan adds that the couple watched in fear and terror as the unknown intruder entered their partially-open garage and headed toward the entrance of their kitchen.

He says that's when Kaarma grabbed the shotgun and shot Dede, a 17-year old foreign-exchange student from Germany.

Ryan says after Dede had been struck, Kaarma's wife attempted life-saving procedures and comforted Diren.

"Markus denies that he lured anyone into his garage. The family's garage door was open for ventilation because Markus and Janelle smoke cigarettes in the garage and had done so minutes before the tragedy. The purse alleged to be 'bait' was actually located in a dark corner of the unlit garage and not visible from the driveway," Ryan's statement reads.

Sounds like good shoot to me.