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German exchange student killed in Montana by home owner.

Sounds very similar to the Minnesota case that just got the home owner life in prison (and rightfully so).

Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.
On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.
They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said.
When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.
It is unclear what the teenager was doing inside in the garage.
Click to expand...


They basically set a trap up. Pre-mediation should get them a long time in jail. Yes, the kid shouldn't have wandered into the garage, but who knows why he was doing that? He could have been doing something completely innocent and just checking on why a garage was left open and dark.
 
In some ways this is worse than the Minnesota case, in that he really did set up a trap which could easily have caught an innocent person or a person who would never otherwise have bothered him. The applicable statute seems to be this:

45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person’s unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure. (2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if: (a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or (b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.
Click to expand...

“Forcible felony” means any felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

If all the student did was enter the garage, and he had no weapon, I think the prosecution will reasonably take the view that Kaarma had no reasonable belief that the student was likely to commit an assault or forcible felony, ruling out reasonable self-defense. Merely stealing the purse, if that's what the student intended, would not qualify for self-defense under Montana law. This situation is particularly problematic for Kaarma since it does appear he intentionally created this situation with an eye toward killing whomever entered the garage.

Assuming for purposes of discussion that it's true that Kaarma intentionally set this up as a trap in order to kill an intruder, I think he should be prosecuted for first-degree murder. If his girlfriend was directly involved and participated in the plan, the same should happen to her.
 
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The thing that bothers me about this story is the way he blindly fires into the garage multiple times. What if he blasted one of his neighbor's young kids away? This was really an unjustified shooting and the guy deserves to go to prison.
 
I'm kind of torn on these... how can you "bait" someone into doing something they shouldn't be doing? It is still their choice to "take the bait". They're self aware unlike animals.

Either way, I agree it isn't right to do. In the end it is still premeditated murder which is ultimately what makes it wrong / illegal.
 
Tweak155 said:
I'm kind of torn on these... how can you "bait" someone into doing something they shouldn't be doing? It is still their choice to "take the bait". They're self aware unlike animals.
Click to expand...

That is my problem as well. You can't bait a person into burglary.

Its basically the her skirt was too short so she baited me into "raping" her argument.

Tweak155 said:
Either way, I agree it isn't right to do. In the end it is still premeditated murder which is ultimately what makes it wrong / illegal.
Click to expand...

Killing someone who is illegally in your dwelling isn't murder. So it can't be premeditated murder.
 
Tweak155 said:
I'm kind of torn on these... how can you "bait" someone into doing something they shouldn't be doing? It is still their choice to "take the bait". They're self aware unlike animals.

Either way, I agree it isn't right to do. In the end it is still premeditated murder which is ultimately what makes it wrong / illegal.
Click to expand...

The cops do it every day. Ever see the TV show "Bait Car"?
 
nehalem256 said:
Killing someone who is illegally in your dwelling isn't murder. So it can't be premeditated murder.
Click to expand...

It is unless you have a justification for the killing, such as self-defense. Killing someone for entering your property only to steal a purse would not be legally justified under Montana law unless you had a reasonable fear that the trespasser intended to commit assault or a forcible felony. On these facts, I don't see how there could have been such a reasonable fear. Frankly I think Kaarma seems like a complete sociopath and it is probably best for society if he spends a few decades in the clink thinking about what he's done.
 
Don Vito Corleone said:
It is unless you have a justification for the killing, such as self-defense. Killing someone for entering your property only to steal a purse would not be legally justified under Montana law unless you had a reasonable fear that the trespasser intended to commit assault or a forcible felony. On these facts, I don't see how there could have been such a reasonable fear. Frankly I think Kaarma seems like a complete sociopath and it is probably best for society if he spends a few decades in the clink thinking about what he's done.
Click to expand...

Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
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http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/776.08

Assuming Montana to have a similar definition. Seems like stealing said purse would be a forcible felony.
 
I wonder how this will play out at trial. This guy may end up walking assuming there are enough jurors that feel his castle has been violated.
 
ViperXX said:
The thing that bothers me about this story is the way he blindly fires into the garage multiple times. What if he blasted one of his neighbor's young kids away? This was really an unjustified shooting and the guy deserves to go to prison.
Click to expand...

To be fair, this guy was using the method of self defense recommended by VP Joe Biden.
 
Ugh, you see a garage door open and go check if everything is ok and get blasted with a shotgun. WTF is wrong with people?! When I was a kid we used to sneak into peoples' backyards to steal apples. I guess in some sick fuckers mind it would have been okay to shoot us. I can't understand.

I would like to know all the details of what really happened but it just seems so wrong to shoot someone just because he is trespassing on your property.
 
TROLLERCAUST said:
Ugh, you see a garage door open and go check if everything is ok and get blasted with a shotgun. WTF is wrong with people?! When I was a kid we used to sneak into peoples' backyards to steal apples. I guess in some sick fuckers mind it would have been okay to shoot us. I can't understand.

I would like to know all the details of what really happened but it just seems so wrong to shoot someone just because he is trespassing on your property.
Click to expand...

Meh...me and one of my cousins got peppered with rock salt when we were kids (I was 9)...we got caught raiding one of his neighbors' watermelon patch on a warm summer evening.
Getting shot was painful as hell...but having it picked out and then soaking the rest out in a hot bath was even worse...😱

Personally, in this case and the Minnesota case, I think the homeowners were justified in their shootings. Thieves should be killed. Whether it's by those from whom they're stealing...or by the courts following a trial...If you catch a thief...you should be able to shoot the fucking fuck.

Armed robbery, burglary, forcible rape, child molestation...those are just a few of the crimes that should carry an automatic death sentence.
 
BoomerD said:
Meh...me and one of my cousins got peppered with rock salt when we were kids (I was 9)...we got caught raiding one of his neighbors' watermelon patch on a warm summer evening.
Getting shot was painful as hell...but having it picked out and then soaking the rest out in a hot bath was even worse...😱

Personally, in this case and the Minnesota case, I think the homeowners were justified in their shootings. Thieves should be killed. Whether it's by those from whom they're stealing...or by the courts following a trial...If you catch a thief...you should be able to shoot the fucking fuck.

Armed robbery, burglary, forcible rape, child molestation...those are just a few of the crimes that should carry an automatic death sentence.
Click to expand...

You are advocating for millions of yearly executions. That's horrifying.
 
If its illegal for the police to do it, then it should be illegal for the common folk. Usually though its the other way around.
 
eskimospy said:
There's no evidence such a thing happens.

You're calling for something approaching Holocaust levels of mass death within your own country. That's monstrous.
Click to expand...

Why do you support the rights of criminals over the rights of honest, law abiding citizens?


OILFIELDTRASH said:
Didn't you just admit to thieving your neighbors watermelon crop? I'd imagine he wasn't growing watermelon for hobby so you were stealing his livelihood.
Click to expand...

It wasn't a cash crop...but still...

😳
 
BoomerD said:
Meh...me and one of my cousins got peppered with rock salt when we were kids (I was 9)...we got caught raiding one of his neighbors' watermelon patch on a warm summer evening.
Getting shot was painful as hell...but having it picked out and then soaking the rest out in a hot bath was even worse...😱

Personally, in this case and the Minnesota case, I think the homeowners were justified in their shootings. Thieves should be killed. Whether it's by those from whom they're stealing...or by the courts following a trial...If you catch a thief...you should be able to shoot the fucking fuck.

Armed robbery, burglary, forcible rape, child molestation...those are just a few of the crimes that should carry an automatic death sentence.
Click to expand...

Sweet, well by your standards you should be dead so nice use of your brain there, dummy.
 
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