German bishop faces 5 years for denying the holocaust

[Lemon law]

Maybe what we are trying to assume is that past world history has been anything but a brutal and a indefensible thing. But none the less, human progress has marched steadily along, sometimes paved by horrible brutality.

But now that we learn the arts of global thermonuclear war, we should realize that past tactics are counterproductive. If we do not mature as a world, thermonuclear war will surely be our end fate.

 

[Atheus]

At some point, surely, CanOWorms should be banned? I mean even if you believe he has a right to consistantly abuse people (though others have been banned for this) and even if you think he has a right to consistantly lie (free speech and all) then you've got to consider the fact that he only has one point to make - that he doesn't like white Europeans. Hasn't he made that point enough now? Pretty much every one of those >9000 posts are vicious rants against Europeans just becasue of their genetics and place of birth. I mean if it was a white guy who had posted 9000 times abusing the Japanese (or whoever) simply for being Japanese then he'd be permabanned for racism right?

 

[CanOWorms]

At some point, surely, CanOWorms should be banned? I mean even if you believe he has a right to consistantly abuse people (though others have been banned for this) and even if you think he has a right to consistantly lie (free speech and all) then you've got to consider the fact that he only has one point to make - that he doesn't like white Europeans. Hasn't he made that point enough now? Pretty much every one of those >9000 posts are vicious rants against Europeans just becasue of their genetics and place of birth. I mean if it was a white guy who had posted 9000 times abusing the Japanese (or whoever) simply for being Japanese then he'd be permabanned for racism right?

Sorry, I don't abuse people (dismantling of someone's entire viewpoint is not abuse to a rational person) nor do I lie.

I don't see where I've posted about white Europeans. I post about European governments and societies as a whole. What I infer from your post is a belief that the only European is a white European. That is a racist belief which is quite common throughout Europe.

People post on topics which interest them. There are members here with thousands of post regarding Israel. Others post about Islam. Others, such as yourself, post about the USA.

Someone posting 9000 times about the Japanese for simply being Japanese is different than someone posting 9000 times about the Japanese government and its particular policy, social, governmental, and historical issues.

 

[woolfe9999]

errrr... I think he actually asked for the opposite...

"please tell me what historians disagree that the final solution was planned during the war"

If you notice, I listed both. I wasn't sure if he had mis-worded his request.

- wolf

 

[Atheus]

Sorry, I don't abuse people (dismantling of someone's entire viewpoint is not abuse to a rational person) nor do I lie.

You consistantly abuse people. You may even be the most insulting person here and that's saying something. You may not intentionally lie - I think you believe every word of the hate that comes out of your mouth - but you have your own personal version of history and when someone argues with you you just call them a Nazi. If that's not abuse I don't know what is.

I don't see where I've posted about white Europeans. I post about European governments and societies as a whole. What I infer from your post is a belief that the only European is a white European. That is a racist belief which is quite common throughout Europe.

In our various discussions you are the one who makes this distinction between white and non-white Europeans not me. You are always saying things like "Europeans hate minorities", well if "Europeans" _includes_ ethnic minorities, then that statement makes no sense does it? What you mean is _white_ Europeans hate minorities, which is of course a gross generalisation based purely on race, and is a particularly hateful kind of bullshit.

Others, such as yourself, post about the USA.

I do post about the US a lot; mostly to provide a balance to all the America love-in which seems to prevail here 90% of the time. I do not however isult Americans based purely on the fact that they're American - I pick the gun nuts and warmongers. You'll pick out any Brit in a thread and immediately make assumptions - they must be a monarchist for example - and then insult them based on that. I doubt there is one post on this forum saying positive things about the monarchy which requires your response. Certinaly not from me - I believe we should be a republic - but you wouldn't know that would you? Your jugdement has already been made based on race and place of birth.

 

[werepossum]

Germany knows all about Hell. That's why they have these Laws. I give Germany a pass on this issue for that alone.

I was going to post something different, but - this. Since we haven't had a World War 3, obviously they know what they are doing.

 

[wwswimming]

In comments broadcast on Swedish television last January, Williamson said he believed no more than 300,000 Jews perished in the Holocaust and that there were no gas chambers.

The consensus among historians is the Nazis killed some six million Jews in the Holocaust.

actually, that's not the consensus.

there were 3 1/2 million Jewish people in occupied Europe at the beginning of the war.
per Walter Sanning's Book, "The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry"
http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Eastern-European-Walter-Sanning/dp/0939484110

Sanning is a Jewish historian who uses census numbers from around the world to establish population numbers for the Jewish people before & after World War 2. He finds that 1.2 million Jewish people perished during the war. He also found a maximum of 3.5 million Jewish people lived in occupied Europe at the beginning of the war (and most of them got out while they could).

this little snafu in the Official Version of the Holocaust is related to the changing of the plaque at Auschwitz in the 1990's. It used to read, "in memory of the 4 million who died" - implying that 2 million died elsewhere. It was changed to read, "in memory of the 1 1/2 million who died" - so that if the Auschwitz casualties are added to the 2 million, you get ... 3 1/2 million.

that Jewish people were rounded up & killed is not disputed.

for example, Martin Gray's book, "For Those I Loved"
http://www.amazon.com/Those-I-Loved-.../dp/0451069420
Martin Gray was a young Jewish boy in Poland when the Nazi's walled it off. He started out by bribing Nazi guards and importing tons of food, which also turned out to be a profitable business. He subsequently was sent to Auschwitz, which he survived by hiding in the latrine.

I don't think Gray's book was fiction. Nor do I think Sanning has any evil intentions - he started out as a historian studying the 20th century & ended up writing a book that turned out to be very controversial.

Of course, if you look at the total number of casualties in WW2 - 60 to 100 million - the death of 200,000 to 3.5 million Jewish people places in dispute their claim that they suffered the worst.

It is tradition in America to paint Hitler as the Worst of Boogey Men. Given that the US killed about 4 1/2 million civilians in Southeast Asia during the Vietnamese War - and a few million civilians in Iraq in the last 15 years - who is the bigger Boogey Man, the US or Nazi Germany ?

As far as the German Bishop - "Williamson said he believed no more than 300,000 Jews perished in the Holocaust" - he might be in the ballpark.

The 2 people I cited - Gray and Sanning - are both Jewish. Neither is motivated by anti-Jewish goals.

 

[werepossum]

actually, that's not the consensus.

there were 3 1/2 million Jewish people in occupied Europe at the beginning of the war.
per Walter Sanning's Book, "The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry"
http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Ea.../dp/0939484110

Sanning is a Jewish historian who uses census numbers from around the world to establish population numbers for the Jewish people before & after World War 2. He finds that 1.2 million Jewish people perished during the war. He also found a maximum of 3.5 million Jewish people lived in occupied Europe at the beginning of the war (and most of them got out while they could).

this little snafu in the Official Version of the Holocaust is related to the changing of the plaque at Auschwitz in the 1990's. It used to read, "in memory of the 4 million who died" - implying that 2 million died elsewhere. It was changed to read, "in memory of the 1 1/2 million who died" - so that if the Auschwitz casualties are added to the 2 million, you get ... 3 1/2 million.

that Jewish people were rounded up & killed is not disputed.

for example, Martin Gray's book, "For Those I Loved"
http://www.amazon.com/Those-I-Loved-.../dp/0451069420
Martin Gray was a young Jewish boy in Poland when the Nazi's walled it off. He started out by bribing Nazi guards and importing tons of food, which also turned out to be a profitable business. He subsequently was sent to Auschwitz, which he survived by hiding in the latrine.

I don't think Gray's book was fiction. Nor do I think Sanning has any evil intentions - he started out as a historian studying the 20th century & ended up writing a book that turned out to be very controversial.

Of course, if you look at the total number of casualties in WW2 - 60 to 100 million - the death of 200,000 to 3.5 million Jewish people places in dispute their claim that they suffered the worst.

It is tradition in America to paint Hitler as the Worst of Boogey Men. Given that the US killed about 4 1/2 million civilians in Southeast Asia during the Vietnamese War - and a few million civilians in Iraq in the last 15 years - who is the bigger Boogey Man, the US or Nazi Germany ?

As far as the German Bishop - "Williamson said he believed no more than 300,000 Jews perished in the Holocaust" - he might be in the ballpark.

The 2 people I cited - Gray and Sanning - are both Jewish. Neither is motivated by anti-Jewish goals.

Good post. I don't think anyone thinks Jews suffered the most in terms of absolute numbers - that would almost certainly be the Slavic people of the USSR - but rather in terms of percentage of population and in the cold, methodical way Jews were rounded up and murdered.

 

[woolfe9999]

actually, that's not the consensus.

there were 3 1/2 million Jewish people in occupied Europe at the beginning of the war.
per Walter Sanning's Book, "The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry"
http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Ea.../dp/0939484110

Sanning is a Jewish historian who uses census numbers from around the world to establish population numbers for the Jewish people before & after World War 2. He finds that 1.2 million Jewish people perished during the war. He also found a maximum of 3.5 million Jewish people lived in occupied Europe at the beginning of the war (and most of them got out while they could).

this little snafu in the Official Version of the Holocaust is related to the changing of the plaque at Auschwitz in the 1990's. It used to read, "in memory of the 4 million who died" - implying that 2 million died elsewhere. It was changed to read, "in memory of the 1 1/2 million who died" - so that if the Auschwitz casualties are added to the 2 million, you get ... 3 1/2 million.

that Jewish people were rounded up & killed is not disputed.

for example, Martin Gray's book, "For Those I Loved"
http://www.amazon.com/Those-I-Loved-.../dp/0451069420
Martin Gray was a young Jewish boy in Poland when the Nazi's walled it off. He started out by bribing Nazi guards and importing tons of food, which also turned out to be a profitable business. He subsequently was sent to Auschwitz, which he survived by hiding in the latrine.

I don't think Gray's book was fiction. Nor do I think Sanning has any evil intentions - he started out as a historian studying the 20th century & ended up writing a book that turned out to be very controversial.

Of course, if you look at the total number of casualties in WW2 - 60 to 100 million - the death of 200,000 to 3.5 million Jewish people places in dispute their claim that they suffered the worst.

It is tradition in America to paint Hitler as the Worst of Boogey Men. Given that the US killed about 4 1/2 million civilians in Southeast Asia during the Vietnamese War - and a few million civilians in Iraq in the last 15 years - who is the bigger Boogey Man, the US or Nazi Germany ?

As far as the German Bishop - "Williamson said he believed no more than 300,000 Jews perished in the Holocaust" - he might be in the ballpark.

The 2 people I cited - Gray and Sanning - are both Jewish. Neither is motivated by anti-Jewish goals.

Once again, Walter Sanning is not Jewish. His name is Wilhelm Niedereiter, an ethnic German born in the USSR in 1936 who later fled to Germany. His book is complete hookum. It uses cherry-picked data to support a pre-conceived thesis, and it ignores hard census data.

Here is some light reading on Walter Sanning:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/08/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-1.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/08/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-2.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/09/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-3.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/09/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-4.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/10/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-5.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/10/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-6.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/07/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-7.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/08/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-8.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/11/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-9.html

- wolf

 

[soccerballtux]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. They have good intentions with these laws, but no matter how you view it, it's a restriction on freedom of speech, and even worse, freedom of thought. It's basically saying "you must believe what we tell you, and you must profess your belief in what we tell you, or end up in jail. You are not free to believe what you like". That sounds like Iran or China, not Germany or the US.

Get back to me when we're restricting people from thinking blue is better than green, and we'll have a discussion. Until then, it's a non issue. Imagine if I was a "slavery denier".
There is no doubt it happened, and tolerating people who say it didn't is foolish.

 

[soccerballtux]

actually, that's not the consensus.

there were 3 1/2 million Jewish people in occupied Europe at the beginning of the war.
per Walter Sanning's Book, "The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry"
http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Ea.../dp/0939484110

Sanning is a Jewish historian who uses census numbers from around the world to establish population numbers for the Jewish people before & after World War 2. He finds that 1.2 million Jewish people perished during the war. He also found a maximum of 3.5 million Jewish people lived in occupied Europe at the beginning of the war (and most of them got out while they could).

this little snafu in the Official Version of the Holocaust is related to the changing of the plaque at Auschwitz in the 1990's. It used to read, "in memory of the 4 million who died" - implying that 2 million died elsewhere. It was changed to read, "in memory of the 1 1/2 million who died" - so that if the Auschwitz casualties are added to the 2 million, you get ... 3 1/2 million.

that Jewish people were rounded up & killed is not disputed.

for example, Martin Gray's book, "For Those I Loved"
http://www.amazon.com/Those-I-Loved-.../dp/0451069420
Martin Gray was a young Jewish boy in Poland when the Nazi's walled it off. He started out by bribing Nazi guards and importing tons of food, which also turned out to be a profitable business. He subsequently was sent to Auschwitz, which he survived by hiding in the latrine.

I don't think Gray's book was fiction. Nor do I think Sanning has any evil intentions - he started out as a historian studying the 20th century & ended up writing a book that turned out to be very controversial.

Of course, if you look at the total number of casualties in WW2 - 60 to 100 million - the death of 200,000 to 3.5 million Jewish people places in dispute their claim that they suffered the worst.

It is tradition in America to paint Hitler as the Worst of Boogey Men. Given that the US killed about 4 1/2 million civilians in Southeast Asia during the Vietnamese War - and a few million civilians in Iraq in the last 15 years - who is the bigger Boogey Man, the US or Nazi Germany ?

As far as the German Bishop - "Williamson said he believed no more than 300,000 Jews perished in the Holocaust" - he might be in the ballpark.

The 2 people I cited - Gray and Sanning - are both Jewish. Neither is motivated by anti-Jewish goals.

Once again, Walter Sanning is not Jewish. His name is Wilhelm Niedereiter, an ethnic German born in the USSR in 1936 who later fled to Germany. His book is complete hookum. It uses cherry-picked data to support a pre-conceived thesis, and it ignores hard census data.

Here is some light reading on Walter Sanning:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/08/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-1.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/08/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-2.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/09/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-3.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/09/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-4.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/10/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-5.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2007/10/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-6.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/07/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-7.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/08/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-8.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/11/crazy-world-of-walter-sanning-part-9.html

- wolf

edit: wait I can't tell if you're saying tons WERE killed or not.
edit2: ok yeah thanks for taking care of that. There is no rational explanation for why everybody hates Jews so much. Imagine if I tried to argue slavery numbers were half what they were initially reported as. I should not be tolerated.

 

[daishi5]

Nnnope.... no I didn't... you posted this:

"Natives in the Americans[sic] died from diseases, but natives in Africa, Asia did not die from diseases in the same way. They died from forced starvation, war, slavery, destruction of resources, etc."

You are clearly saying that white Americans did not starve, make war on, enslave, or destroy the resources of the native Americans in the same way as other colonialists did elsewhere. Were the land and the buffalo not resources to the native North Americans? Those were actually probably their _only_ resources. Were the wars not real wars? And what about 'Indian reservations' - segregating people by race into camps? I suppose those aren't real either despite the fact they exist to this very day?

/edit: it's funny, it's very hard to find any real facts and numbers on the American Genocide, even though it was witnessed by many literate people who would have written about it... its almost like someone doesn't want us to know...

I think he is right. I have to pull this from the top of my head, but I believe that somewhere around 85-90% of the native population in the americas died from exposure to the european diseases that came with the first colonists. Now, we did do our best to wipe what was left, but the diseases had already decimated them and possibly destroyed several civilizations before we even got a chance. So if my memory is right the majority of native americans died by disease because it was faster than us, not because of a lack of willingness on our part to slaughter and indigenous population.

 

[woolfe9999]

edit: wait I can't tell if you're saying tons WERE killed or not.
edit2: ok yeah thanks for taking care of that. There is no rational explanation for why everybody hates Jews so much. Imagine if I tried to argue slavery numbers were half what they were initially reported as. I should not be tolerated.

Peer reviewed historical studies converge in the range of 5-6 million Jewish dead. 6 million is a popular rounded number that is close enough. Swimming is citing a fraudulent Holocaust denier and trying to pass him off as Jewish.

- wolf

 

[Atheus]

I think he is right. I have to pull this from the top of my head, but I believe that somewhere around 85-90% of the native population in the americas died from exposure to the european diseases that came with the first colonists. Now, we did do our best to wipe what was left, but the diseases had already decimated them and possibly destroyed several civilizations before we even got a chance.

Totally fair point, wouldn't argue with it except to say nobody really knows those percentages for sure, and 10-15% of hundreds of millions is still tens of millions.

So if my memory is right the majority of native americans died by disease because it was faster than us, not because of a lack of willingness on our part to slaughter and indigenous population.

Exactly. That's not the conclusion he's drawing though - he believes Europeans are inherently more evil than anyone else.

 

[daishi5]

Totally fair point, wouldn't argue with it except to say nobody really knows those percentages for sure, and 10-15% of hundreds of millions is still tens of millions.



Exactly. That's not the conclusion he's drawing though - he believes Europeans are inherently more evil than anyone else.

True, I think that fact he was using was valid, but the point he was trying to draw from it was not. I am amazed how many people seem to think that horrific slaughters are some form of aberration in human history, when our current attempts to minimize death is the true aberration.

 

[CanOWorms]

You consistantly abuse people. You may even be the most insulting person here and that's saying something. You may not intentionally lie - I think you believe every word of the hate that comes out of your mouth - but you have your own personal version of history and when someone argues with you you just call them a Nazi. If that's not abuse I don't know what is.

Being the most insulting person is a subjective view. It's obvious that those who cherish supremacy-based beliefs would find me insulting because I dare to challenge them. I sometimes call out their Nazi-like beliefs when it is warranted.

You are probably confused by my Nazi slavemaster comment and probably taking it seriously instead of understanding why it was put in there (it was a counter-example of your own ludicrous interpretation of my post). When you see a painting, remember that it is more than just paint - it has an actual meaning behind it.

In our various discussions you are the one who makes this distinction between white and non-white Europeans not me. You are always saying things like "Europeans hate minorities", well if "Europeans" _includes_ ethnic minorities, then that statement makes no sense does it? What you mean is _white_ Europeans hate minorities, which is of course a gross generalisation based purely on race, and is a particularly hateful kind of bullshit.

Saying Europeans hate minorities is referring to European governments, societies, etc. It's obvious that minorities are within the governments and societies. However, they are disempowered.

It really seems that you have difficulty with abstract thinking. Sorry, but people aren't going to be assuming that their audience is an 11-year-old.

I do post about the US a lot; mostly to provide a balance to all the America love-in which seems to prevail here 90% of the time. I do not however isult Americans based purely on the fact that they're American - I pick the gun nuts and warmongers. You'll pick out any Brit in a thread and immediately make assumptions - they must be a monarchist for example - and then insult them based on that. I doubt there is one post on this forum saying positive things about the monarchy which requires your response. Certinaly not from me - I believe we should be a republic - but you wouldn't know that would you? Your jugdement has already been made based on race and place of birth.

I do post about Europe a lot; mostly to provide a balance to the ignornace of European social and political issues which seems to prevail here 99.9% of the time.

Posting a sarcastic or facetious comment about the monarchy in general is not an assumption on someone since it's not directed at a particular person.

 

[CanOWorms]

Exactly. That's not the conclusion he's drawing though - he believes Europeans are inherently more evil than anyone else.

No, I'm not. I was simply disputing the statement that European eradication of Native Americans via diseases was generally similar in nature to the eradication of Africans/Asians via diseases.

If anything, it is alleviating some of the evil burden from European history.

 

[Atheus]

In our various discussions you are the one who makes this distinction between white and non-white Europeans not me. You are always saying things like "Europeans hate minorities", well if "Europeans" _includes_ ethnic minorities, then that statement makes no sense does it? What you mean is _white_ Europeans hate minorities, which is of course a gross generalisation based purely on race, and is a particularly hateful kind of bullshit.

Saying Europeans hate minorities is referring to European governments, societies, etc. It's obvious that minorities are within the governments and societies. However, they are disempowered.

Right, so minorities are included in the society, and the society hates minorities, so they... hate... themselves? Nice logic. Well done.

Go on admit it - who hates who exactly? What groups are you referring to?

 

[Ozoned]

you'll know all about it come tuesday.

helllllllllllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[txrandom]

Well you don't see me denying that, do you? Of bloody course it was the invading foce that slaughtered the native population.

France saved you and freed you, if not for France the US would still be part of the UK.

If not for the US, the UK would be part of Germany.

 

[werepossum]

If not for the US, the UK would be part of Germany.

Ya just gotta keep chucking donuts under the bridge, doncha?

 

[woolfe9999]

If not for the US, the UK would be part of Germany.

So would the aforementioned France.

- wolf

 

[CanOWorms]

Right, so minorities are included in the society, and the society hates minorities, so they... hate... themselves? Nice logic. Well done.

Go on admit it - who hates who exactly? What groups are you referring to?

You can't be serious.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

What, the man does not have a right to be a moron? Shame on you Europe for stooping to his level.

Germany != Europe.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

What, the man does not have a right to be a moron? Shame on you Europe for stooping to his level.

Germany != Europe.