German bishop faces 5 years for denying the holocaust

[Noobtastic]

There have been other "industrialized" genocides, including Germany's own Herero genocide in Africa. What do you think the WW2 Holocaust developed from? Don't be a holocaust denier yourself.

Wrong. The Holocaust was the only industrialized genocide in the history of mankind. But industrialized, I mean manufactured. Fanatics and hateful bigots carried out the genocide in a very meticulous, specific, and logical manner. The Herero genocide was a product of colonialism. The Holocaust was independent of war, colonialism, or any other casualty of conquest and/or imperialism.

and the sheer scale of the holocaust has yet to be matched.

i see some people consider germany's laws a slippery slope, but again i dont think people are appreciating the seriousness of the situation.

germany is not censoring free speech, and rarely are holocaust deniers thrown in prison. in fact islamists and muslim trolls are given free money to live in secluded muslim berlin ghettos to preach their anti-jewish propaganda.

 

[woolfe9999]

Wrong. The Holocaust was the only industrialized genocide in the history of mankind. But industrialized, I mean manufactured. Fanatics and hateful bigots carried out the genocide in a very meticulous, specific, and logical manner. The Herero genocide was a product of colonialism. The Holocaust was independent of war, colonialism, or any other casualty of conquest and/or imperialism.

and the sheer scale of the holocaust has yet to be matched.

i see some people consider germany's laws a slippery slope, but again i dont think people are appreciating the seriousness of the situation.

germany is not censoring free speech, and rarely are holocaust deniers thrown in prison. in fact islamists and muslim trolls are given free money to live in secluded muslim berlin ghettos to preach their anti-jewish propaganda.

The Holocaust was most definetly not independent of war. It wasn't wholly a byproduct of war either, but it would never had occurred without it.

Your point about its efficiency and systematic nature compared to other genocides has some merit. However, this whole line of argument risks trivializing other genocides.

- wolf

 

[Noobtastic]

The Holocaust was most definetly not independent of war. It wasn't wholly a byproduct of war either, but it would never had occurred without it.

The Holocaust was completely independent of war. The final solution was drawn up well before the war began. In fact, Hitler's original reasoning for killing the Jews was because they planned taking the country into war for their own financial gain.

Your point about its efficiency and systematic nature compared to other genocides has some merit. However, this whole line of argument risks trivializing other genocides.

- wolf

to say the holocaust is not unique is a subtle form of holocaust denial. the holocaust is very unique, and is one of the few genocides on earth that is denied on such a wide-scale.

it essentially defined the 2,000 years of government-sanctioned anti-jewish policies in europe. it would be a serious mistake for europe to brush it off as just another genocide of the 20th century.

 

[CanOWorms]

Wrong. The Holocaust was the only industrialized genocide in the history of mankind. But industrialized, I mean manufactured. Fanatics and hateful bigots carried out the genocide in a very meticulous, specific, and logical manner. The Herero genocide was a product of colonialism. The Holocaust was independent of war, colonialism, or any other casualty of conquest and/or imperialism.

Wrong.

The Herero genocide was also manufactured. Being a product of colonialism doesn't eliminate the manufactured nature of the genocide. The Herero genocide was carried out by fanatics and hateful bigots in a very meticulous, specific, and logical manner as well.

The Holocaust was very much a product of war and conquest. Do you think the Jews in France would just hop on a train to be killed during peacetime?

Let's look at your elements:

Fanatics and hateful bigots:
Germany claimed that the Herero were not real humans.

Meticulous:
Let's look at the proclamation from the German general: "I, the great general of the German troops, send this letter to the Herero people... All Hereros must leave this land... Any Herero found within the German borders with or without a gun, with or without cattle, will be shot. I shall no longer receive any women or children; I will drive them back to their people or have them fired upon. This is my decision for the Herero people."

Logical:
They methodically rounded up Herero and enslaved them into concentration camps where they numbered slaves and kept detailed records. They even let German companies rent them out. Up to 75% of the Herero population was murdered.

and the sheer scale of the holocaust has yet to be matched.

Wow, you really are denying a lot of genocides if you think that it's actually the largest one in history.

 

[Sinsear]

However, it should be noted that Williamson is a complete moron. He not only denies the Holocaust, he promotes 9/11 conspiracy theories and every form of modern crankery on the planet.

- wolf

So what you're trying to tell us is that kylebeisme is in his churches congregation?

 

[Noobtastic]

Wrong.

The Herero genocide was also manufactured. Being a product of colonialism doesn't eliminate the manufactured nature of the genocide. The Herero genocide was carried out by fanatics and hateful bigots in a very meticulous, specific, and logical manner as well.

The hereo genocide was not manufactured in the same sense the holocaust was. and it is simply intellectually dishonest to compare it to the holocaust.

The Holocaust was very much a product of war and conquest. Do you think the Jews in France would just hop on a train to be killed during peacetime?

the holocaust was not born out of war and conquest, as i just proved. this isn't a debate.

Let's look at your elements:

Fanatics and hateful bigots:
Germany claimed that the Herero were not real humans.

Meticulous:
Let's look at the proclamation from the German general: "I, the great general of the German troops, send this letter to the Herero people... All Hereros must leave this land... Any Herero found within the German borders with or without a gun, with or without cattle, will be shot. I shall no longer receive any women or children; I will drive them back to their people or have them fired upon. This is my decision for the Herero people."

Logical:
They methodically rounded up Herero and enslaved them into concentration camps where they numbered slaves and kept detailed records. They even let German companies rent them out. Up to 75% of the Herero population was murdered.

again, not in any way comparable to the holocaust. the holocaust was the first and only manufactured and industrialized genocide in the history of mankind.

an entire people mathematically wiped out. and this wasn't simply unique to europe. plans were dawn up to liquidate the jews of palestine. the IDF captured schematics for a concentration camp in nablus.

Wow, you really are denying a lot of genocides if you think that it's actually the largest one in history.

the holocaust is the largest genocide in history. some argue the hundreds of millions who starved and died during europe colonization counts as a genocide, and it does in a way, but it isn't fair to compare the two since one took place over a period of a few years while the other took centuries.

the 80 million hindus killed by muslim conquered in india between the 11th and 14th century has been referred to as a genocide.

 

[Lemon law]

My only comment is that the Bishop is a total idiot, and that the Vatican should remove Bishop from his title.

But there is still a freedom of speech issue we should ask here. And also some sacred cow issues that I think are also fair game, that may be lost in such a loss of freedom of speech.

And while there is no valid way to deny that Hitler killed some 6 million Jews for the sole and dubious offense of having Jewish heritage, the Nazis kept meticulous records impossible to deny. But in that same free speech, we have somehow lost the ability to freely discuss the fact that Hitler was an equal opportunity racist bigot, who also probably killed more than 6 million NON Jews also, for the same offense of genetic heredity. And also killed millions more for the the cause of social eugenics, the mentally retarded and the homosexual got the same gas em treatment. And we have not even started on what Joe Stalin did, but numbers wise, he may make Hitler look decidedly second rate.

Nor can we deny the fact that the USA and the rest of the world did far too little, all should be considered if we are to get a true perspective on the Holocaust.

 

[Atheus]

It's one of those laws which which will be quietly repealed in about 100 years. Up until 1998 you could technically be publicly hanged in the UK for the crimes of piracy and 'arson in the dockyards'...

 

[CanOWorms]

The hereo genocide was not manufactured in the same sense the holocaust was. and it is simply intellectually dishonest to compare it to the holocaust.

It is intellectually dishonest not to compare it when the WW2 Holocaust was inspired by the Herero genocide.

the holocaust was not born out of war and conquest, as i just proved. this isn't a debate.

Sorry, but you didn't prove it. It occurred during war and conquest, it was facilitated by war and conquest, it aided war and conquest.

again, not in any way comparable to the holocaust. the holocaust was the first and only manufactured and industrialized genocide in the history of mankind.

Sorry, it wasn't.

an entire people mathematically wiped out. and this wasn't simply unique to europe. plans were dawn up to liquidate the jews of palestine. the IDF captured schematics for a concentration camp in nablus.

An entire people were not wiped out. In fact, more percentage of Herero were wiped out than Jews if that is your comparison.

the holocaust is the largest genocide in history. some argue the hundreds of millions who starved and died during europe colonization counts as a genocide, and it does in a way, but it isn't fair to compare the two since one took place over a period of a few years while the other took centuries.

the 80 million hindus killed by muslim conquered in india between the 11th and 14th century has been referred to as a genocide.

Arguing that the genocide from colonialism was not a genocide is like claiming that the Holocaust was not a genocide.

So it's not "fair" to compare them therefore somehow the Holocaust is the largest genocide in history even though you admit more died? Please elaborate. You admit that the Holocaust was the largest and was not the largest genocide.

It seems like you are a denier on par with this German bishop.

 

[PokerGuy]

Your going to have a lot of denial in a country then.

So what? So what if some crazies deny the existence of something that every rational person on earth already knows is true? You can't stop them from believing it didn't happen, so you make laws that prevent them from telling the truth about what they believe? That makes no sense at all.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Holocaust deniers are idiots, but these kinds of thoughtcrimes are just as bad. If he wants to say it didn't happen, he should be able to do so. Nobody should be forced to be silent about their beliefs, it flies in the face of all freedom of speech.

It's bloody Germany, we IMPOSED these laws upon them.

Shut the fuck up and learn your history, real history, not the Americanised version where you are all heroes at all times but REAL history.

 

[Noobtastic]

It is intellectually dishonest not to compare it when the WW2 Holocaust was inspired by the Herero genocide.

Hardly.

Sorry, but you didn't prove it. It occurred during war and conquest, it was facilitated by war and conquest, it aided war and conquest.

The final solution was developed before the war began.

Sorry, it wasn't.

YES IT WAS.

An entire people were not wiped out. In fact, more percentage of Herero were wiped out than Jews if that is your comparison.

2/3 of all European's Jews were exterminated. And it is simply an unfair comparison.

You are engaging in a subtle form of holocaust denial.

Arguing that the genocide from colonialism was not a genocide is like claiming that the Holocaust was not a genocide.

there are different definitions of a genocide. the holocaust was carried out based on historically ethnic disputes. the natives kill during colonialism died mostly from diseases and not actual violence.

So it's not "fair" to compare them therefore somehow the Holocaust is the largest genocide in history even though you admit more died? Please elaborate. You admit that the Holocaust was the largest and was not the largest genocide.

the holocaust is the largest planned and coordinated genocide in history.

get it?

It seems like you are a denier on par with this German bishop.

it seems you know nothing about the holocaust and wish to de-legitimize it.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Hardly.



The final solution was developed before the war began.



YES IT WAS.



2/3 of all European's Jews were exterminated. And it is simply an unfair comparison.

You are engaging in a subtle form of holocaust denial.



there are different definitions of a genocide. the holocaust was carried out based on historically ethnic disputes. the natives kill during colonialism died mostly from diseases and not actual violence.



the holocaust is the largest planned and coordinated genocide in history.

get it?



it seems you know nothing about the holocaust and wish to de-legitimize it.

Do you think i want to de-legitimise it?

The final solution was just a war against the most income rich people he had a chance to target, it also included all other religions besides christianity along with all semites, including arabs.

You really should learn your history son.

 

[Noobtastic]

Do you think i want to de-legitimise it?

The final solution was just a war against the most income rich people he had a chance to target, it also included all other religions besides christianity along with all semites, including arabs.

You really should learn your history son.

you really should read a book, son.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

you really should read a book, son.

I'll do that when i get out of Afghanistan.

If you have anything proper to discuss, i'll discuss it with you but with ignorance you won't get far with me.

Are we clear?

 

[CanOWorms]

Hardly.

Nope!

The final solution was developed before the war began.

Irrelevant.

YES IT WAS.

No, it wasn't. Others include the Holomodor, East Pakistan, British in South Asia, Armenian, etc.

Hundreds of millions alone died during the genocide the British brought forth through their system of man-made famines in South Asia. Even during WW2, 3-4 million died in Bengal alone. The 6-12 million in the WW2 Holocaust is hardly the largest.

2/3 of all European's Jews were exterminated. And it is simply an unfair comparison.

European Jews are not all the Jews in the world. A higher percentage of Herero were massacred.

You are engaging in a subtle form of holocaust denial.

No, I'm not. I am not denying a genocide. You are. You are no different than this German bishop or some far-right Nazi supporter denying the Holocaust.

there are different definitions of a genocide. the holocaust was carried out based on historically ethnic disputes. the natives kill during colonialism died mostly from diseases and not actual violence.

Stop denying holocausts. Natives in the Americans died from diseases, but natives in Africa, Asia did not die from diseases in the same way. They died from forced starvation, war, slavery, destruction of resources, etc.

the holocaust is the largest planned and coordinated genocide in history.

get it?

No, I don't get it because it's not the largest planned and coordinate genocide in history. That would only exist in the mind of a genocide denier.

it seems you know nothing about the holocaust and wish to de-legitimize it.

It seems like you know little of history and only know of the WW2 Holocaust and wish to delegitimatize it through your ignorance.

 

[Atheus]

Nope!
Stop denying holocausts. Natives in the Americans died from diseases, but natives in Africa, Asia did not die from diseases in the same way. They died from forced starvation, war, slavery, destruction of resources, etc.

Woah hang on a sec... so death by colonialism constitutes genocide, and yet America somehow doesn't count? Tens of millions died. Many American leaders openly advocated extermination of the native population! And what about South America? The people were cleared out of the way of the conquerers like so much annoying undergrowth! Before you say "stop denying holocausts" take a look at yourself.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Woah hang on a sec... so death by colonialism constitutes genocide, and yet America somehow doesn't count? Tens of millions died. Many American leaders openly advocated extermination of the native population! And what about South America? The people were cleared out of the way of the conquerers like so much annoying undergrowth! Before you say "stop denying holocausts" take a look at yourself.

When you think you can win an argument with a troll you have thought too much.

Next up... "it was the Brits who killed them (mumbles about queens and kings)"

You have to realise, this is a man who actually proclaims that the Queen does indeed hold power of the UK.

SAS special salute for him.

 

[shira]

On free speech grounds, I oppose European laws that criminalize HD.
- wolf

High-def is a crime???

Fee-yuck!! How do they expect me to see the pubic hairs?

 

[CanOWorms]

Woah hang on a sec... so death by colonialism constitutes genocide, and yet America somehow doesn't count? Tens of millions died. Many American leaders openly advocated extermination of the native population! And what about South America? The people were cleared out of the way of the conquerers like so much annoying undergrowth! Before you say "stop denying holocausts" take a look at yourself.

You've misread what I posted. I suggest you read some history. Africans and Asians were not inflicted by European-brought diseases like people in the Americas.

"Death by colonialism" (what an interesting charge) does not necessarily constitute genocide. However, the British enacted a genocide via economic and political policies which purposely and knowingly created man-made famines. If that is not a genocide then what is it?

 

[CanOWorms]

SAS special salute for him.

Please don't try to associate me with a terrorist gang.

 

[woolfe9999]

The Holocaust was completely independent of war. The final solution was drawn up well before the war began. In fact, Hitler's original reasoning for killing the Jews was because they planned taking the country into war for their own financial gain.



to say the holocaust is not unique is a subtle form of holocaust denial. the holocaust is very unique, and is one of the few genocides on earth that is denied on such a wide-scale.

it essentially defined the 2,000 years of government-sanctioned anti-jewish policies in europe. it would be a serious mistake for europe to brush it off as just another genocide of the 20th century.

I'm sorry, but the majority of Holocaust historians would disagree that a genocide was planned before the war.

And if you read my post closely, I did not deny its uniqueness any more than I deny the uniqueness of any other genocide.

I would caution you against accusing me of Holocaust denial. Not only am I well read on the subject, but I have spent the better part of the last two years debating deniers on another discussion forum.

- wolf

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Please don't try to associate me with a terrorist gang.

It's not to include, it's to exclude, a SAS salute is a turnback mission, like a tracking that leads nowhere.


I'm saying you are useless. But you already knew that i'm sure.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I'm sorry, but the majority of Holocaust historians would disagree that a genocide was planned before the war.

And if you read my post closely, I did not deny its uniqueness any more than I deny the uniqueness of any other genocide.

I would caution you against accusing me of Holocaust denial. Not only am I well read on the subject, but I have spent the better part of the last two years debating deniers on another discussion forum.

- wolf

Wolfie, you're about to learn that a trolls opinion trumphs reality in his own mind...

 

[woolfe9999]

Do you think i want to de-legitimise it?

The final solution was just a war against the most income rich people he had a chance to target, it also included all other religions besides christianity along with all semites, including arabs.

You really should learn your history son.

Most of the Jews killed were from Poland and the USSR, and these eastern Jews (ostjuden) were for the most part, dirt poor. I'm afraid the core of the issue really was ethnic, not economic, though sometimes economic excuses were employed.

Edit: the issue of ethnicity and economics is complex and the two are intertwined in the case of anti-semitism. I want to avoid over-simplying the issue.

- wolf