George Zimmerman at it again ... a gun auction

[BUTCH1]

Sorry, when you make up a new argument, and then show how it's valid/invalid, but ignore the real argument about what actually really happened, that is the textbook definition of a straw man.

TM assaulted a man. Your silly examples of "well, anyone would feel suspicious/scared/whatever" is irrelevant, because TM didn't die for any of those reasons- he died because he decided to physically assault someone.

And I won't try and challenge those facts but if I recall GZ's wounds were of "superficial" variety, I doubt his life was ever in danger but of course once you attack someone all bets are off. I cannot however simply dismiss GZ needlessly exiting his vehicle after TM ran off, he presented no danger to GZ at that time and that's where it should have ended. Mistakes were made by BOTH parties IMHO but seeing GZ trying to cash in on death makes me want to hurl.

 

[JSt0rm]

Let me guess, you are one of the idiots that still believes Zimmerman was Caucasian because the media told you so.

You nailed it. You are pretty smart.

 

[JSt0rm]

Can't you people read? You keep making up versions of this story that are different from the facts presented at trial.

And yet all you pro gunners wink wink nudge nudge about dead men telling no tails. And here we have a situation where a dead kid can tell no tail and we only are supposed to look at the merits of the points brought up in court? As if that is somehow the truth of everything? LOL. You people suck. You know full well the trial didnt have the whole story.

 

[DrPizza]

And yet all you pro gunners wink wink nudge nudge about dead men telling no tails. And here we have a situation where a dead kid can tell no tail and we only are supposed to look at the merits of the points brought up in court? As if that is somehow the truth of everything? LOL. You people suck. You know full well the trial didnt have the whole story.

OK, look, I've tried to reason with you. Physical evidence is physical evidence. It doesn't matter if the people are alive or dead who talk about the physical evidence. E.g., in the Michael Brown case, there were witnesses who said a huge variety of things. Many of those witnesses were contradicted by the physical evidence.

Out of curiosity, what do you think that Trayvon could have said, had he lived, that would have changed the outcome of the court case? Please tell us. Go ahead and make up hypothetical testimony that fits the physical evidence and a reasonable person would believe.

Here's a thought - don't want to get shot? Don't fight strangers.

 

[QueBert]

Yes and... where does the physical assault part come in? You keep on building these straw man arguments, and none of them are relevant. If TM asked himself "WTF is this dude up to, I haven't bothered him or walked in his path forcing him to stop, why is he tailing me?" nobody would give a shit. He ended up dead because he physically assaulted a man with a gun who was wiling to use it to defend his own life.




How is that even remotely relevant? If I saw someone parking a car, I certainly wouldn't care one iota about whether or not I thought they lived there, because it's incredibly common to have a guest or family member over to visit, and also because the amount of people within a couple blocks is large enough that no normal person could possible remember every single person.

But... lets say, despite the above, I do feel like the guy is suspiciously out of place, maybe a weird accent or something... even then, never in a million years would I assault the guy just because I thought he was out of place.

So you're saying a man with a well documented history of anger and aggression simply parked his truck and got out. And Travyon attacked him, completely unprovoked? That sounds, reasonable, I suppose. Not saying Martin was justified in assulting him, but I refuse to believe Georgie didn't say or do something. It's in his nature, I mean since he followed a man and yelled at him "do you know who I am!" and the man called the police the next day when he saw Georgie sitting in the parking lot of his work. 2 wrongs don't make a right, but George didn't get out of his truck and stand there and do nothing.

 

[Ichinisan]

Following him with a gun? That's basic activity????

A

Spoiler

black person

person has a right to walk the streets w/o being followed by a nut brandishing a gun, yea?

Neighborhood watch, is WATCH not follow with a gun. He should have called the cops. It's their purview.

A "

Spoiler

black person

person" does not have the right to beat the shit out of a man because he was looking out for his neighbors.

GZ carried the gun for protection and proved its necessity in the events that occurred.

George didn't confront Trayvon. George didn't "brandish" anything. Trayvon confronted George and assaulted George.

 

[DrPizza]

So you're saying a man with a well documented history of anger and aggression simply parked his truck and got out. And Travyon attacked him, completely unprovoked? That sounds, reasonable, I suppose. Not saying Martin was justified in assulting him, but I refuse to believe Georgie didn't say or do something. It's in his nature, I mean since he followed a man and yelled at him "do you know who I am!" and the man called the police the next day when he saw Georgie sitting in the parking lot of his work. 2 wrongs don't make a right, but George didn't get out of his truck and stand there and do nothing.

Holy shit, you guys never give up on making up stuff. "I refuse to believe Georgie didn't say or do something." The witness for the prosecution claims she was on the phone with Trayvon. Travon asked, "why you are you following me." George replied, "what are you doing here" which was followed by a bump (And Dee Dee could tell he had hit Trayvon from the bump sound, because it sounded like he hit the grass (nonsense).) According to the prosecution's witness - the one who wanted George found guilty - that's what was said. She could have said, "I heard the voice in the background say, "I'm gunna kill you." "Your mother smells of elderberries" or anything else, but she didn't. I would think that when the prosecution's "star witness" doesn't say anything about other things being spoken, other things weren't spoken.

 

[darkswordsman17]

A "

Spoiler

black person

person" does not have the right to beat the shit out of a man because he was looking out for his neighbors.

GZ carried the gun for protection and proved its necessity in the events that occurred.

George didn't confront Trayvon. George didn't "brandish" anything. Trayvon confronted George and assaulted George.

Come on. That's not even close to what happened. He was following him, then got out of his car to look for him on foot. He did that in spite of being told not to do that by police.

Zimmerman was not looking out for his neighbors at that point. He was acting out a power fantasy. I don't think he was out to kill anyone, but I do think he was hoping to get to scare some kid away (which is why he didn't have his gun out brandished as he didn't think he was in any real danger and had the upper hand).

But I know a lot of people who were all for Zimmerman that say they carry for situations exactly like that where they're actually in Trayvon's place and not Zimmerman's. That if they're followed by someone they absolutely will attack them (and straight up say they'd shoot to kill). Only for some reason they think Zimmerman was completely in the right (in all actions, including when he got out of his car and searched after being told not to by police).

If you're being followed you're going to be apprehensive as well. There's a lot of things people aren't taking into account and taking sides whilst ignore all manner of facts.

Much like how there's an awful lot of instances of "excited delirium" when a bunch of cops basically suffocate a person by gang tackling them and holding them down (and sitting on them cutting off proper breathing) putting them into a panic state (where they then call out that they can't breath, often getting snide "you can speak you can breath" from cops while they ignore the person literally dying right in front of them).

The whole situation is fucked up and its exactly why people need to learn how to de-escalate situations. Zimmerman should have never gotten out of his car. And Trayvon should have ran the fuck away. Neither one is a hero or villain, they were both acting on idiotic impulses brought on by heightened tensions. And if I'm not mistaken both of them ignored others telling them to do the opposite of what they did, and then it ended the way it did.

But nope, its all turned into literal black and white arguments.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Holy shit, you guys never give up on making up stuff. "I refuse to believe Georgie didn't say or do something." The witness for the prosecution claims she was on the phone with Trayvon. Travon asked, "why you are you following me." George replied, "what are you doing here" which was followed by a bump (And Dee Dee could tell he had hit Trayvon from the bump sound, because it sounded like he hit the grass (nonsense).) According to the prosecution's witness - the one who wanted George found guilty - that's what was said. She could have said, "I heard the voice in the background say, "I'm gunna kill you." "Your mother smells of elderberries" or anything else, but she didn't. I would think that when the prosecution's "star witness" doesn't say anything about other things being spoken, other things weren't spoken.

Seriously? Its very obvious why she wasn't coached to say that (and coached she assuredly was, trials are complete fucking shams). If they made Zimmerman a complete over the top caricature it wouldn't have been believable and would have hurt their case. She would have been attacked even more than she was.

Hell "witness" testimonies alone are a complete total and utter fucking joke as 99.9% of people cannot keep facts straight.

But, wasn't their case basically built around Zimmerman being told specifically not to confront and then he did it anyway (effectively showing that he deliberately went after him even after being told not to by police; and hence showing he had some sort of extra vendetta)? Actually, wait, wasn't Ichinisan just saying Zimmerman didn't even confront him?

 

[StrangerGuy]

Here's a thought - don't want to get shot? Don't fight strangers.

This is really a modern-day medieval witch hunt, except this time there is actually a functioning judiciary while the witch hunters aka bleeding heart crybabies still thinks justice ain't served because victimization card yo.

 

[DrPizza]

Come on. That's not even close to what happened. He was following him, then got out of his car to look for him on foot. He did that in spite of being told not to do that by police.

Look, pay attention to the following: that has been proven false. That narrative was created by a couple people at a news station who were subsequently fired. They cut and pasted clips together to create that narrative. He was asked if he knew where Trayvon had gone. THAT is when he got out and went to see if he could tell which way Trayvon went. When the dispatcher realized he was out of his car, the dispatcher said, "we don't need you do to do that." "OK."

 

[DrPizza]

But, wasn't their case basically built around Zimmerman being told specifically not to confront and then he did it anyway (effectively showing that he deliberately went after him even after being told not to by police; and hence showing he had some sort of extra vendetta)? Actually, wait, wasn't Ichinisan just saying Zimmerman didn't even confront him?

Ahhh, I understand! You only caught a clip on one news show, and based your ENTIRE understanding on a doctored tape. NO, they didn't base their case on that, because that narrative was already known to be patently false. Zimmerman claimed otherwise. The prosecution's star witness claimed otherwise. The freaking recording of the phone call with the police demonstrates otherwise.

Now that you know better, you can admit, "oops, I made a mistake. I should have paid better attention to facts, instead of basing this entire case on my own feelings."

 

[Artdeco]

Dr Pizza, you kick ass, buddy. :thumbsup:

 

[JSt0rm]

Does a person who conceal carries have a responsibility to not put themselves in situations where they will use that weapon?

 

[Svnla]

Me think some of you guys need to go back to the huge thread about GZ vs. TM and the trial and read it again. The thread is very long and all of the evidences from the trial were there. Go read it and educate yourself before you make a fool out of yourself.

 

[Chiropteran]

Dr Pizza, you kick ass, buddy. :thumbsup:

QFT

 

[JSt0rm]

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckra...-dispatcher-told-me-not-to-follow-the-suspect

He was told. So not sure why the round of golf claps. He just said he was going back to his car. The point is why should people with concealed weapons be allowed to instigate fights?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Does a person who conceal carries have a responsibility to not put themselves in situations where they will use that weapon?

Depends on the State

 

[JSt0rm]

well it takes a special kind of asshole to gather up some false courage in his pocket and wander around the neighborhood looking for shit to start. The world laughs at this stupid, remarkably American idea.

But yeah "the facts of the case" Fucking nerds. How about the fact of being a decent human?

 

[Chiropteran]

The point is why should people with concealed weapons be allowed to instigate fights?

Treyvon, who instigated the fight by attacking GZ, didn't have a concealed weapon.
&
Nobody is allowed to instigate fights.

Your logic is total and complete fail.

 

[Chiropteran]

well it takes a special kind of asshole to gather up some false courage in his pocket and wander around the neighborhood looking for shit to start.

It's okay though, because that special asshole started shit with the wrong man, and now he is dead.

 

[JSt0rm]

so trevon didnt notice his stalker? And confronted him? No. Poor zimmerman was just walking around.

 

[JSt0rm]

OK, look, I've tried to reason with you. Physical evidence is physical evidence. It doesn't matter if the people are alive or dead who talk about the physical evidence. E.g., in the Michael Brown case, there were witnesses who said a huge variety of things. Many of those witnesses were contradicted by the physical evidence.

Out of curiosity, what do you think that Trayvon could have said, had he lived, that would have changed the outcome of the court case? Please tell us. Go ahead and make up hypothetical testimony that fits the physical evidence and a reasonable person would believe.

Here's a thought - don't want to get shot? Don't fight strangers.

If trevon lived there woudlnt of been a court case.


And 17 year olds do dumb things. Its why we send them to war.

 

[JSt0rm]

Let me ask all of you this

Do you think zimmerman thinks it was worth it to get a conceal carry permit and be a "nights watch"? Would any of you think that it would be worth it to put yourself in a situation where you finally get to kill the bully that haunts your dreams and keeps you awake at night (because thats what this shit is all about)? Knowing now what would happen? Is it worth it?

 

[umbrella39]

Again, the mistake TM made was NOT carry legally that night, too. He was being persued by an armed man in the dark. Probably scared shitless. He had no duty to retreat. He could have simply shot him dead and used the old "I feared for my life". Only his side of the story would have been heard and a dead man on the grass tells no tales...