generators

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Wheezer

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: DahRock222
I'm looking to get off the grid and need some help disigning a good power source. Wind,Solar and Hydro + batterys are in the works but in need to know how many batterys and if i need backup generator

You will need a backup generator almost certainly.

Hint: DO NOT, and I will repeat.. DO NOT get a generator with a regular 4 stroke gasoline engine that spins at 3600RPM to produce the rated output.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, you have a lot of research to do.

any suggestions?

Diesel and an 1800RPM genhead is the only way to go if you care about longevity.

Regular 4 cycle engines will only give a few thousand hours of service before needing to be overhauled.

What about Propane?

ZV

Propane in a gas engine, or diesel?

You could build a reliable generator out of a gas engine, but it's all about the RPMs.

A high quality gas engine(read: taper main bearings on both ends, cast iron cylinder sleeve, separate valve guides, automotive quality air filter, pressurized lubrication) can last quite a long time, a lot longer than ~2,000 hours.

Cheaper gas engines have plain bearings, aluminum bores, aluminum valve guides, etc. They also produce their max output at their redline, which is usually 3600RPM. You can see why the engines won't last long under these conditions.

1800RPM genheads are generally designed with a diesel in mind, and therefor use higher quality bearings and are just generally more robust. Beware of Chinese genheads though.

It's hard to build a 1800RPM generator out of a 3600RPM engine. Obviously the engine is producing very little power at 1800RPM..

I've gotta go to a birthday party, I will post more later.

For some reason I was thinking that an LP generator would be using something other than a reciprocating engine.

ZV

 

[DahRock222]

The main adjective is that to save my computers,tv,elictronics in my house and just started to do some reseach my last rebuild that broke the camels back

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
For some reason I was thinking that an LP generator would be using something other than a reciprocating engine.

ZV

I don't believe the OP would be considering a magnetohydrodynamic generator.

 

[Elstupido]

I installed a 20kw Cummins generator at a friend of mines house in an old mining town high up in the Rockies, with no electrical utility within 30 miles, 11kw feet above sea level. He has some solar with about 8 golf cart batteries. I got him a 1750 rpm 4 cylinder 4 stroke gas engine to power the generator but runs on propane. Should be no problem for longevity, running the clean propane, at relatively low rpm. I had to derate the generator almost in half because of the altitude. Propane or nat gas is a good way to go, he heats his home with the propane, so the storage system is already in place.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: DahRock222
When a generator says 10,000 watt does it produce 10,000 watts per hour or day

<facepalm>

Originally posted by: DahRock222
The main adjective is that to save my computers,tv,elictronics in my house and just started to do some reseach my last rebuild that broke the camels back

<double facepalm>

 

[Elstupido]

<----shakes head

lmao

 

[waggy]

now im no expert. but wouldnt 10,000 watts a day be bad?

 

[So]

Originally posted by: waggy
now im no expert. but wouldnt 10,000 watts a day be bad?

image

 

[Elstupido]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: waggy
now im no expert. but wouldnt 10,000 watts a day be bad?

image

True story

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: waggy
now im no expert. but wouldnt 10,000 watts a day be bad?

image

instead of insulting how about explaining?

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I owuld imagaine that even if you were able to pull it off, you would run into some serious electrical code issues.

Not at all. Co-generation , transfer switching and other off-grid concerns are all addressed and do-able by most tradesmen.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I owuld imagaine that even if you were able to pull it off, you would run into some serious electrical code issues.

Not at all. Co-generation , transfer switching and other off-grid concerns are all addressed and do-able by most tradesmen.

It sounds like the OP is DIY. :Q

RE: ratings...

The 10kW rating of the generator is probably full load. It can be drawn as long as the driving engine has fuel and lubrication in theory. It has nothing to do with run time. A 10kW load for an hour will use 10kWh. In this example if your utility charges $0.12 per kWh the billed rate would be $1.20. I'm sure the generator will cost a *lot* more than that to run full load for an hour.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Originally posted by: Gibson486
I owuld imagaine that even if you were able to pull it off, you would run into some serious electrical code issues.

Not at all. Co-generation , transfer switching and other off-grid concerns are all addressed and do-able by most tradesmen.

It sounds like the OP is DIY. :Q

RE: ratings...

The 10kW rating of the generator is probably full load. It can be drawn as long as the driving engine has fuel and lubrication in theory. It has nothing to do with run time. A 10kW load for an hour will use 10kWh. In this example if your utility charges $0.12 per kWh the billed rate would be $1.12. I'm sure the generator will cost a *lot* more than that to run full load for an hour.

Yeah, I gathered he's on the steep side of the learning curve.
A little refresher about The Conservation of Energy and No Free Lunch is in order.
He'll get it, sooner or later.

Re: Generators under load.... That gennies Voltage / Current output is dependant on the motor's ability to provide torque when demand hits, and since it's always playing "catch up", that can have funny results as the waveform sags, then bounces back as the revs push the voltage swing back.
< Al's Helpful Hints from the road #456 in the continuing series.....
Generators.... If you've got to use one and you will sooner or later, get yourself a Voltage Regulator on the front end of anything you don't want to let the smoke out of. Not a Surge suppresor a real honest to god Voltage Regulator. Trust me, when you're only getting 100 volts at some dive bar's wall outlets, and your Super-Duper Modeling Amp is burping stuff no one has ever heard, This will make all those headaches go away. Same thing when you're in Japan and you cross over to the side that uses the "other" electrical system.


< knows that in 1998, JOURNEY's actual current draw for all band equipment (no monitors or any sound gear) was 13.5 amps~ with peaks of 16.4 ~. This is actual real time current draw at 120 vAC REGULATED. Name plate ratings are for Lawyers and Engineers.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft

Re: Generators under load.... That gennies Voltage / Current output is dependant on the motor's ability to provide torque when demand hits, and since it's always playing "catch up", that can have funny results as the waveform sags, then bounces back as the revs push the voltage swing back.
< Al's Helpful Hints from the road #456 in the continuing series.....
Generators.... If you've got to use one and you will sooner or later, get yourself a Voltage Regulator on the front end of anything you don't want to let the smoke out of. Not a Surge suppresor a real honest to god Voltage Regulator. Trust me, when you're only getting 100 volts at some dive bar's wall outlets, and your Super-Duper Modeling Amp is burping stuff no one has ever heard, This will make all those headaches go away. Same thing when you're in Japan and you cross over to the side that uses the "other" electrical system.


< knows that in 1998, JOURNEY's actual current draw for all band equipment (no monitors or any sound gear) was 13.5 amps~ with peaks of 16.4 ~. This is actual real time current draw at 120 vAC REGULATED. Name plate ratings are for Lawyers and Engineers.

I hear the QSC PowerLite series w/PFC are pretty good at handling rogue swings. I would never connect sensitive gear to a raw gennie output! Ferroresonant transformers clean it up superbly but you need a forklift to move the bigger ones. :Q

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: AlienCraft
< knows that in 1998, JOURNEY's actual current draw for all band equipment (no monitors or any sound gear) was 13.5 amps~ with peaks of 16.4 ~. This is actual real time current draw at 120 vAC REGULATED. Name plate ratings are for Lawyers and Engineers.

well that seemed a bit legalese too. What was this the rating then the keyboards?

 

[DahRock222]

Starting to understand but Im still going with this project Because $1500 in computer parts is hard to swallow when the weather gets bad

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: DahRock222
Starting to understand but Im still going with this project Because $1500 in computer parts is hard to swallow when the weather gets bad

So you're trying to go off the grid because you're afraid of voltage irregularities during bad weather?

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: waggy
now im no expert. but wouldnt 10,000 watts a day be bad?

image

instead of insulting how about explaining?

Last month, we used about 700kWh.

That means we used the equivalent to 700,000W in one hour.

Over the month, that averages out to 2,333kWh/day.

Or 97.21W every hour of every day.

If I had a tracking PV array with a 200W capacity, I could theoretically run "off the grid" if I could manage 12 hours of sun a day. That's rather unlikely, though, even here.

So you would need the generator to fill in the gaps. In this type of setup, the generator wouldn't have to output anywhere near full power to charge the battery bank up. You would want it on some sort of setup where the generator came on automatically, and ran at at it's most efficient RPM, to bring the batteries back up to a high State of Charge.

Infact, such a setup would be necessary to prevent the batteries' SoC from getting too low, and therefor damaging the cells.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: waggy
now im no expert. but wouldnt 10,000 watts a day be bad?

image

instead of insulting how about explaining?

watts are unit of power, its already a rate (rate of energy usage), saying "10,000 watts a day" is like saying a car is going "40 miles per hour per day". IT makes no sense

 

[PowerEngineer]

Originally posted by: DahRock222
Starting to understand but Im still going with this project Because $1500 in computer parts is hard to swallow when the weather gets bad

My advice to you is to swallow hard, or just get a reasonably sized UPS.

A small stand-alone generator like those being discussed will have some serious power quality issues of their own, particularly when loads (like your refrigerator) start and stop.

 

[kage69]

Sounds like the power redundancy you want mainly revolves around your PC(s), in which case you really should just take the easiest (and certainly cheaper!) route of investing in a quality, good capacity UPS from APC or other reputable manufacturer. Generators are nothing to ponder lightly, and doing it the right way first is important otherwise you'll just be pissing away time, effort and money.

Diesel and an 1800RPM genhead is the only way to go if you care about longevity. Regular 4 cycle engines will only give a few thousand hours of service before needing to be overhauled.

Damn right! Lotsa "bargains" out there involving gasoline gens, and most of them will leave you feeling robbed if you try them. Those little Hondas are nice, but they're still not in the same class as a real diesel unit, both in wattage delivered and life span. I ended up getting a 11kW PTO gen that hooks up to the back of my Kubota tractor. More than enough oomph to keep the well pump running, power the lights and all my non-critical appliances.