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General VR discussion thread

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pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
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As originally shipped, Vive was at least half a gen ahead of rift. When Touch ships (8 months after vive), the controller gap will have closed but oculus' roomscale solution is clearly tacked on and not what the system was originally intended for. I think this will remain the key differentiator for the life of vive and rift.

3 sensors are required for a 2.5m x 2.5m play space. There are cumbersome guidelines on sensor placement (third sensor should be off to the side and not directly behind front sensors. Why??) and connectivity (oculus recommends the third sensor be plugged into a USB 2.0 port so as not to overwhelm the usb controller with too much data. The included extension cable with the third sensor is 2.0 only). Roomscale with rift will be more expensive, more difficult to set up, wastes space (A 1.5m square play space needs 2.5m square of room due to the limited FOV of the sensors), and does not support as large a space as vive does with 2 sensors.

Vive is behind in ergonomics but they seem to be quickly iterating on the hardware to make things better. The thinner cable is already shipping with new vives, and that alone makes a fairly big difference in comfort. There will be cheaper/simpler/smaller lighthouses and new controllers next year. I wouldn't be surprised if they released a better head strap at some point as well, although for me comfort is not an issue so much as taking it on and off.
 
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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
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Vive is behind in ergonomics but they seem to be quickly iterating on the hardware to make things better. The thinner cable is already shipping with new vives, and that alone makes a fairly big difference in comfort. There will be cheaper/simpler/smaller lighthouses and new controllers next year. I wouldn't be surprised if they released a better head strap at some point as well, although for me comfort is not an issue so much as taking it on and off.
So the are doing it like Tesla cars where newer ones are upgraded but there is no clear separation between upgraded ones and the old ones?

That sucks if so.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
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They are adapting as they go which isn't a bad thing really, but there are articles out there stating they have no plans for Vive 2.0 at this time. They are concentrating on arcades functions I guess.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
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They are adapting as they go which isn't a bad thing really, but there are articles out there stating they have no plans for Vive 2.0 at this time. They are concentrating on arcades functions I guess. At this time what I'd really like is a cheap effective wireless solution. I am fine with the resolution/etc at this point.
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
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So the are doing it like Tesla cars where newer ones are upgraded but there is no clear separation between upgraded ones and the old ones?

That sucks if so.
Aside from the headstrap the headset itself is not modularly upgradeable. So far the only changes have been reduced packaging size and the new cable. Those were changes where you didn't know exactly what you were getting if you ordered one from htc's site. It's not known how updates to more important hw will be handled. We don't even know if HTC will be making the new lighthouses/controllers or if Valve will take that on themselves.

If HTC/Valve can improve the product between major iterations, how is that a bad thing for consumers? Why would I want to wait until the hypothetical vive 2 in 2018 to get improved lighthouses, controllers, and ergonomics if those things are ready to go in 2017? Early adopters like me will end up paying more in the long term, but that is a standard "early adopter tax" that I think most are prepared to deal with. If not, nobody is forcing you to buy the new cable or new controllers when those appear. The product you paid for will still do everything it says on the box.

VR is going to advance rapidly in the next 10 years. You are free to sit on the sidelines until VR upgrades become as boring as CPUs and GPUs have
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
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If HTC/Valve can improve the product between major iterations, how is that a bad thing for consumers?
Labeling. I don't mind upgrades as long as there is a clear V1, V2, V3. But let's say I want to buy a secondhand Vive, is there any way for me to know if I get a launch day one with no improvements or one with improvements?

I mean they don't have to wait until they have enough improvements to make it a pure Vive 2, but it would be nice if they took a cue from the router makers and at least go the V1, V2 route. Otherwise consumers have to figure it out themselves based on serial numbers or something like that. It is a pain.

In fact the only reason I can think of to not do it that way is they don't want to piss off launch day buyers who won't get those changes.

You are free to sit on the sidelines until VR upgrades become as boring as CPUs and GPUs have
I don't want to wait that long. It is obvious to me based on just reading this thread that much like the iPad 1 or iPhone 1 (or most version 1 products) there are very obvious things HTC can change to improve the experience. I think there is a difference between saying I want to get a version 2 that has these obvious improvements baked in than saying I will wait until I can get a Vive in a Crackerjack box like we are with smartphones today.

That is just me though.
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
421
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Labeling. I don't mind upgrades as long as there is a clear V1, V2, V3. But let's say I want to buy a secondhand Vive, is there any way for me to know if I get a launch day one with no improvements or one with improvements?

I mean they don't have to wait until they have enough improvements to make it a pure Vive 2, but it would be nice if they took a cue from the router makers and at least go the V1, V2 route. Otherwise consumers have to figure it out themselves based on serial numbers or something like that. It is a pain.

In fact the only reason I can think of to not do it that way is they don't want to piss off launch day buyers who won't get those changes.



I don't want to wait that long. It is obvious to me based on just reading this thread that much like the iPad 1 or iPhone 1 (or most version 1 products) there are very obvious things HTC can change to improve the experience. I think there is a difference between saying I want to get a version 2 that has these obvious improvements baked in than saying I will wait until I can get a Vive in a Crackerjack box like we are with smartphones today.

That is just me though.

Any improvements to the vive will be physical so you will be able to tell which improvements a used one has looking at it.

I'd say it's extremely unlikely that the screens or lenses or anything internal to the headset will change without the name also changing. Even if they did change those things it would be pretty easy to tell by using the headset for 5 seconds, which you should absolutely do if you buy one used.
 
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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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the Vive came included with two "wands"? Which by the way are ridiculous over-sized.
They look dumb, but in practice they're actually pretty good. You get a lot of functionality: grip buttons, 3D motion capture (basically a super-accurate Wiimote), touchpad, haptic, trigger, and a couple small buttons above & below. They are actually pretty natural to use & don't weight much of anything. Of course, you could always do it rave-style like the PSVR:

 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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I went with the kit thats literally made of cardboard! lol Google had a 2 for $25 deal, and in looking at the cheaper versions people complain about this and that, so I figured Google's version should be the minimum. I only have an iPhone 5, but I'm gifting an iPhone 7 Plus this Xmas so I can try it out then if it looks like crap on my phone. The Viewmaster brand kit is only $15 so I still might get that for my friends kids, although I dont know if they would want their kids regularly using their phones for this. I still need to run it by them, but if not then I'll just give them the second cardboard one so they could try it for the day then toss it.

Someone should make the equivalent of the an Android iPod Touch thats specifically for VR. Something that you wouldnt mind letting little kids use and drop over and over again. Maybe there is a reasonably priced unlocked pre-paid Android phone that could be use for this.
Yeah, my first VR purchase was a Viewmaster for my 5S...it gives you the idea, but the screen looks like total garbage. But it is pretty cool to have the 360-swivel response. The newer phones look WAY better.

iirc, Samsung announced an AIO Gear VR unit that has the screen & CPU integrated, that way you don't have to buy the phone separately. If they sold that with a gamepad for like $199, it'd be a HUGE hit. Google Cardboard is being superseded by Google Daydream, which is a headset for your phone with a controller. Right now, the Google-branded version only works with specific phones (I believe the new Pixels), but more support is on the way & third-party vendors will be able to make headsets for different phones, I believe. Coming out this month:

http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/12/1/13812176/google-daydream-vr-crimson-snow-now-available

http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/139062-google-daydream-view-review-a-pixel-perfect-vr-experience
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
45,562
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Yeah it's nice to tiptoe in the water with a Gear VR.

I so hope the rumors of a Vive 2 in 2017 are legit. I want to get into big boy VR so bad but my 10 old policy of not buying gen 1 products barely holds me back.
The Vive is definitely a first-gen product, albeit a good first-gen product. I don't really have any complaints with mine because I knew what to expect going in. The main things are no Retina screens (you can see the pixels) & a limited base of quality games. Sure, there's 500+ VR apps in the Steam store, but most are garbage. But I was keen on getting one & don't regret it...most fun I've had with tech in a loooooooooong time!
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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In regards to the wands, they are not bad at all. Also, most apps/games change the appearance of the wands to fit what you are doing, so other than in menus you seldom see the wand. It's actually pretty clever for those things. The only time it really kind of doesn't match is when those things are supposed to actually be hands.

Btw, i finally tried that Bow/Arrow defend the fort game in The Lab..holy hell did my arms start hurting.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
Yeah, my first VR purchase was a Viewmaster for my 5S...it gives you the idea, but the screen looks like total garbage. But it is pretty cool to have the 360-swivel response. The newer phones look WAY better.

iirc, Samsung announced an AIO Gear VR unit that has the screen & CPU integrated, that way you don't have to buy the phone separately. If they sold that with a gamepad for like $199, it'd be a HUGE hit. Google Cardboard is being superseded by Google Daydream, which is a headset for your phone with a controller. Right now, the Google-branded version only works with specific phones (I believe the new Pixels), but more support is on the way & third-party vendors will be able to make headsets for different phones, I believe. Coming out this month:

http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2016/12/1/13812176/google-daydream-vr-crimson-snow-now-available

http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/139062-google-daydream-view-review-a-pixel-perfect-vr-experience
This morning I bought a used LG G3 on ebay for like $70 so I could play around with this. I didnt think the iPhone 5 would work all that well, and I didnt want to wait till Xmas when I'll have access to an iPhone 7 Plus. I think I should be able to use it on WiFi and get a good idea as to what the real potential is. I definitely would prefer an AIO unit for $200 for a guaranteed good experience than the nickel and diming I'm starting to do. By the time I'm done tinkering I probably would have bought enough junk that equal the cost of a Vive, and then end up buying one! lol I dont think I'd ever really want to play real games on it because I dont have a lot of space to work with, but the idea of watching content in VR, like a virtual holiday, seems cool.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
29,931
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Btw, i finally tried that Bow/Arrow defend the fort game in The Lab..holy hell did my arms start hurting.
I feel your pain... or rather I have before! :p That game is probably the most fun one in The Lab along with the spaceship one. They actually updated the arrow game awhile back to make it endless as you used to be limited to the same run over and over. The only bad part is that it's kind of weird going from one archery game to another. It'd be great if there was a good "standard" physics library to use for that sort of thing... or at least one so you could provide your users the option of using Valve's settings.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,610
315
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The Vive is definitely a first-gen product, albeit a good first-gen product. I don't really have any complaints with mine because I knew what to expect going in. The main things are no Retina screens (you can see the pixels) & a limited base of quality games. Sure, there's 500+ VR apps in the Steam store, but most are garbage. But I was keen on getting one & don't regret it...most fun I've had with tech in a loooooooooong time!
I feel you. I have tried one and the experience is amazing compared to phone VR. Feels like the future.

After being first on the 3D Tv bandwagon (hard, I have three of them and more formerly $160 glasses than I want to admit to) I have more trepidation about being an early adopter than when I was younger. :)
 

youngok

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2016
3
0
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What about the playstation VR? If it costs the same as the Rift($599), and you buy a Playstation for $350, then you are all in for $950 as opposed to $1500 for the rift and pc and probably much more for the VIVE and pc. I'm probably going that route and then maybe get the second generation Oculus or VIVE. I already spent 200 on the Virzoom and 350 for a playstation, so all I need is the Playstation VR
Have you else play SVPRO VR Camera ?
It's seems used for VR package and interesting,you can take it.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
45,562
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This morning I bought a used LG G3 on ebay for like $70 so I could play around with this. I didnt think the iPhone 5 would work all that well, and I didnt want to wait till Xmas when I'll have access to an iPhone 7 Plus. I think I should be able to use it on WiFi and get a good idea as to what the real potential is. I definitely would prefer an AIO unit for $200 for a guaranteed good experience than the nickel and diming I'm starting to do. By the time I'm done tinkering I probably would have bought enough junk that equal the cost of a Vive, and then end up buying one! lol I dont think I'd ever really want to play real games on it because I dont have a lot of space to work with, but the idea of watching content in VR, like a virtual holiday, seems cool.
tbh, I hardly ever use my GC or GearVR these days. The Vive is on a whole nother level of VR thanks to the super-accurate motion tracking. I have a Note 5 & the screen quality really isn't all that different from the GearVR, but (1) being able to walk around with the headset on is soooooo much more intuitive, and (2) having the motion controllers (basically extremely accurate Wiimotes, with touchpads & buttons and whatnot) in each hand just really makes it that much more immersive.

The Vive is a pretty big investment. $800 for the headset plus at least another grand for a PC, plus games & any accessories you want (I have a VR exercise bike, those go for another $400 now).
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
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How exactly is the Vive gen2 and the rift gen1? Because the Vive came included with two "wands"? Which by the way are ridiculous over-sized.
Because all the rest is +/- the same. Comparing one gen to another would imply some *significant* changes which there definitely are not, unless you are referring to Rift DK2 or DK1.

I know that it's childish and non-constructive to compare Vive and Rift (CV1), literally non-constructive since there can never be a "winner" with this comparison, but using this logic I could say I think the CV1 is "gen2" compared to the Vive since the Vive REALLY feels (and looks) like some prototype "hacked together" while the CV1 feels and comes across as a polished product. Not just judging from looks alone also when it comes to setup etc.

Edit: I understand you maybe saying/thinking the Vive is gen2 because it came AFTER anyone and their mama associated Rift with VR (no question)...but just wanting to clarify that I would never ever want to say to someone that the Vive is gen2, eg. for a purchase decision, since it implies something which so is simply not the case.
How about this: the Vive is a full product and the rift is 1/2 a product with the rest shipping soon (tm).

Further, for a non-insignificant portion of the target demographic, the required space for a whole room experience doesn't exist: making the comparative completeness of the rift more like 3/4ths.
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
421
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How about this: the Vive is a full product and the rift is 1/2 a product with the rest shipping soon (tm).

Further, for a non-insignificant portion of the target demographic, the required space for a whole room experience doesn't exist: making the comparative completeness of the rift more like 3/4ths.
I think most people COULD get the space required for roomscale with some creativity and minor rearranging, and a non-insignificant portion of those people will do it when they try VR. Having the VR space be within reach of a VR-capable PC is probably more of an obstacle than having the VR space itself.

The normal arrangement of my 1br brooklyn apartment does not have an acceptable VR space. But if I spend 30 seconds moving the living room chair and coffee table out of the way I get a 3m x 2m space. If I spend 3 minutes moving the couch and ikea shelf I can get over 3m x 3m. I don't do the big one often but it's good for demoing.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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How about this: the Vive is a full product and the rift is 1/2 a product with the rest shipping soon (tm).

Further, for a non-insignificant portion of the target demographic, the required space for a whole room experience doesn't exist: making the comparative completeness of the rift more like 3/4ths.
Speaking of the Oculus, Palmer Luckey is still MIA:

http://gizmodo.com/palmer-watch-day-69-nice-1789565663

It's too bad he got blacklisted; he seems like a pretty decent guy - lots of good work in VR, wasn't adverse to trying the Vive, etc. That's the danger of being in the public eye; he got caught in some politics & got shunned.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
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I think most people COULD get the space required for roomscale with some creativity and minor rearranging, and a non-insignificant portion of those people will do it when they try VR. Having the VR space be within reach of a VR-capable PC is probably more of an obstacle than having the VR space itself.

The normal arrangement of my 1br brooklyn apartment does not have an acceptable VR space. But if I spend 30 seconds moving the living room chair and coffee table out of the way I get a 3m x 2m space. If I spend 3 minutes moving the couch and ikea shelf I can get over 3m x 3m. I don't do the big one often but it's good for demoing.
Oh: I was confused earlier about who could t find the space and told "lots of people" which didn't make sense to me, not everyone is going to find the same 4x4 I have in my big stupid house, bu I thought everyone (with the SES to drop 2grand on a toy) had a living room with a TV and a couch they could move into the kitchen...
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
421
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Speaking of the Oculus, Palmer Luckey is still MIA:

http://gizmodo.com/palmer-watch-day-69-nice-1789565663

It's too bad he got blacklisted; he seems like a pretty decent guy - lots of good work in VR, wasn't adverse to trying the Vive, etc. That's the danger of being in the public eye; he got caught in some politics & got shunned.
I have no sympathy for him. It wasn't just his support for Trump. It was that he was donating money to a trolling/shitposting campaign and the posts under his pseudonym almost made me cringe myself to death. Plus his girlfriend is a pretty blatant white supremacist.

I don't hold his actions against Oculus, but screw Palmer. VR will be fine without him.
 
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flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
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I think most people COULD get the space required for roomscale with some creativity and minor rearranging, and a non-insignificant portion of those people will do it when they try VR. Having the VR space be within reach of a VR-capable PC is probably more of an obstacle than having the VR space itself.

The normal arrangement of my 1br brooklyn apartment does not have an acceptable VR space. But if I spend 30 seconds moving the living room chair and coffee table out of the way I get a 3m x 2m space. If I spend 3 minutes moving the couch and ikea shelf I can get over 3m x 3m. I don't do the big one often but it's good for demoing.
Here is my personal opinion: I can well see people being "blown away" when they try "room scale" for the first time, but I am convinced that it is a fluke. Ultimately, people will "settle down" and enjoy just normal gaming, like watching TV or whatever else we do...sitting comfortably. And the nr. of people with large enough spaces for "room scale", and I am talking about people in cities etc. is very small. (A CES etc. show room is not what the average person has). From that POV I actually understand why Oculus initially focused on sitting/forward experiences...because that's what MOST of us do.
 

Sabrewings

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Jun 27, 2015
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but I am convinced that it is a fluke. Ultimately, people will "settle down" and enjoy just normal gaming, like watching TV or whatever else we do...sitting comfortably.
Then you're convinced incorrectly. It's a different experience entirely to playing games the normal way or watching TV. A lot of people (myself included) like to move. I still use room scale often after 8 months now of Vive ownership. The Vive sub is still very active with people playing room scale, and Steam data shows room scale games to be the most popular VR-only games.
 
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pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
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Here is my personal opinion: I can well see people being "blown away" when they try "room scale" for the first time, but I am convinced that it is a fluke. Ultimately, people will "settle down" and enjoy just normal gaming, like watching TV or whatever else we do...sitting comfortably. And the nr. of people with large enough spaces for "room scale", and I am talking about people in cities etc. is very small. (A CES etc. show room is not what the average person has). From that POV I actually understand why Oculus initially focused on sitting/forward experiences...because that's what MOST of us do.
Must be one hell of a fluke then because I've had my vive since early May and I still try to find ways to increase my play area and I plan on making "large VR space" a requirement when I eventually buy a house.

I'd say that so far my play time is 95% roomscale and 5% sitting/standing games. I think that could change with generation 2 or 3 headsets that are much higher res and wireless and you can basically replace TV/monitor based gaming with them. I don't feel that seated or standing VR are compelling enough at this time. If I'm going to sit down and game I'd rather not be shut off from the world while looking at a very low res image.
 
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