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General VR discussion thread

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Midwayman

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
5,723
325
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I'm definitely not buying any VR system until i've tried one, and i'm not aware of anywhere that has demo units near me. Also i'd like to wait and see if this actually develops into an accepted, usable technology and doesn't just disappear a couple years later like 3D monitors/tv's have. The whole idea of VR just seems like another gimmick that won't ever end up being a widely used technology, and a very expensive one at that.
Well it has the gaming industry excited in a way that 3d monitors never did. I think its more a question of when it takes for for gaming than if it will. If you're on the fence might as well wait for 2nd gen units which no doubt will be substantially better.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
I'm definitely not buying any VR system until i've tried one, and i'm not aware of anywhere that has demo units near me. Also i'd like to wait and see if this actually develops into an accepted, usable technology and doesn't just disappear a couple years later like 3D monitors/tv's have. The whole idea of VR just seems like another gimmick that won't ever end up being a widely used technology, and a very expensive one at that.
That's understandable. Until I had tried it I didn't really understand either. I don't think anyone who hasn't tried it really does. It's totally different than anything you've tried before. It all comes down to one thing: unparalleled presence.

This guy has been using it for 30 days, and I think his perspective is pretty unique outside of game devs. The media doesn't have that kind of "seat" time.

https://youtu.be/Oq5IyQOHFMw

The take away is where he says it's hard to want to play traditional games anymore. I feel the same way.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
154
106
A nice personal write-up about someone's experience in VR, I liked it:

http://time.com/4172998/virtual-reality-oculus-rift-htc-vive-ces/

As for "just another gimmick" - I have (fortunately) the freedom to entirely ignore anyone else's opinion. I am wishing for actual VR for decades already, this was before the time of 3D TV at home. And now it's here. I don't see a reason to wait even longer.
You know, when I got my C64 in the early 80s, most people looked at me like crazy. Computers were something for nerds, not for normal people...

When I started to build my first modem, people and family looked at me like crazy. (The fact that I ran up horrible phone bills probably didn't help either :) Now, grandma and granddad are booking flights on the internet.

I notice a "more than normal" aversion of people when it comes to 3D/VR...most people initially have a negative stance. Probably because of all the 3D flops in the past, anaglyph, 3D movies, 3D TV etc., seems this tech has some sort-of stigma to it, sometimes justified, sometimes not.

(I think I said that on many occasions already, 3D TVs, monitors etc. all have a significant problem, this is lack of FOV for immersion. They cannot create "presence", just being some sort of "window" into a 3D world similar like looking into an aquarium. VR is fundamentally different and doesn't have this flaw)

I remember one decade (or longer even) back when VR kits with specs like 320x or 160x pixel resolution and shitty FOV (don't remember the exact specs) cost tens of thousands of dollars. If it hadn't been for Palmer, we still wouldn't have affordable/usable/supported VR, let alone for the mainstream. This is actually remarkable that this entire development comes from the enthusiasm of ONE person, a person who like some others SAW the potential and simply couldn't understand why this tech never developed further.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
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For those wondering or not realizing. Oculus has said the Rift will also do room space movement, they just aren't pushing devs to it because 'most' people don't have the space to do it and they don't want to segment the user base more than it will already be, but that they can and will support it.

It is interesting though most reviews seem to say the room movement IS the most enjoyable part of it. It's going to be an interesting next couple of years.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
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This is actually remarkable that this entire development comes from the enthusiasm of ONE person, a person who like some others SAW the potential and simply couldn't understand why this tech never developed further.
It's remarkable because that's not how it went. Here's some good reading on the flip side, but the gist is that Palmer was one of many groups working on this tech and went to Kickstarter to fund it while Valve was using their own capital to further the tech. The Kickstarter campaign simply made him the most visible.

http://www.engadget.com/2016/03/18/htc-vive-an-oral-history/

For those wondering or not realizing. Oculus has said the Rift will also do room space movement, they just aren't pushing devs to it because 'most' people don't have the space to do it and they don't want to segment the user base more than it will already be, but that they can and will support it.

It is interesting though most reviews seem to say the room movement IS the most enjoyable part of it. It's going to be an interesting next couple of years.
I don't doubt the tracking can support it with enough cameras. Though, I'm not sure if Valve or HTC have patented the chaperone mode or use of a camera which is pretty integral to the experience.
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
29,937
596
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I got an e-mail today telling me that my Vive order is being processed right now. I wonder if they'll ship it early? The release date is supposed to be 4/5.

For those wondering or not realizing. Oculus has said the Rift will also do room space movement, they just aren't pushing devs to it because 'most' people don't have the space to do it and they don't want to segment the user base more than it will already be, but that they can and will support it.

It is interesting though most reviews seem to say the room movement IS the most enjoyable part of it. It's going to be an interesting next couple of years.
But by stating that they "can and will support it", that means they are already segmenting the userbase by making these aspects an extra! This is the same problem that the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 had. The Xbox One had the Kinect as a packaged extra, which guaranteed that all users would at least have it as an option for games. Once Microsoft removed it, that's not even a guarantee, so why focus on it?

In this case, we've got extra from Oculus that aren't even available at release meaning there are a good chunk of games that are limited to normal gamepads and seated-only gaming. At CES, they did have some Touch games, but they aren't coming out until later this year anyway.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
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I got an e-mail today telling me that my Vive order is being processed right now. I wonder if they'll ship it early? The release date is supposed to be 4/5.



But by stating that they "can and will support it", that means they are already segmenting the userbase by making these aspects an extra! This is the same problem that the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 had. The Xbox One had the Kinect as a packaged extra, which guaranteed that all users would at least have it as an option for games. Once Microsoft removed it, that's not even a guarantee, so why focus on it?

In this case, we've got extra from Oculus that aren't even available at release meaning there are a good chunk of games that are limited to normal gamepads and seated-only gaming. At CES, they did have some Touch games, but they aren't coming out until later this year anyway.
Less people are going to buy a Vive though (because Rift is owned by Facebook, I am SURE they are going to be advertising the heck out of it on FB), so it's really a wash. I assume that they mean if you order the controllers (which I think come with another camera) then you would be able to do the same thing as Vive.

I do not think they are far off. Most people are going to sit and play, at least until some killer apps come along. Those are not here yet.
 
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Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
29,937
596
126
Less people are going to buy a Vive though (because Rift is owned by Facebook, I am SURE they are going to be advertising the heck out of it on FB), so it's really a wash. I assume that they mean if you order the controllers (which I think come with another camera) then you would be able to do the same thing as Vive.

I do not think they are far off. Most people are going to sit and play, at least until some killer apps come along. Those are not here yet.
Eh, I don't think Facebook's ownership has much to do with the sales so far. The sales so far are most likely because Oculus came out first and is cheaper. It's also the "original" VR unit, which gets it a bit of loyalty. I was playing Overwatch with some people last night (that I just met during the beta), and one commented that his Rift hadn't shipped yet. We were talking about them, and he commented that he just wants to play racing sims and flight games (like EVE: Valkyrie). Oculus will do that for you just fine, and it costs less.

Although, what would make me wants Oculus more would be what I've seen from the Leap Motion Orion. Although, it supposedly works with Vive as well, but I've mostly seen people pair it with the Rift. Speaking of that, I need to pick one up!
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
7,818
30
91
I'm starting to see this Vive vs Rift debates going around, just like the PS4 vs Xbone ones of the last couple years. Especially on YT along with some misinformation. Some are very heavily biased against the Rift, siding the Vive as superior. Someone even stated the Rift as being little more than a "movie viewer" and some FCC issues and saying the touch may never come out because they can't fix it, others saying the Rift will always be horrible for moving around...just various dumb shit.
I think it will get worse though with everyone taking sides and crap talking back n forth.

I know the Rift will have some exclusive titles but I'm curious if the Rift will be able to play all VR games or only ones specifically developed for the Rift? If the latter then it seems the Vive would basically have exclusive titles for it as well ..at least until another VR comes out that uses the same platform?

Aside from seeing the pixels, you don't really notice the screen distance. You're looking into a virtual world...with the head motion, your brain just registers you as inside the VR scene, whether it's the Oculus VR menu or a virtual movie theater or whatever. That's what is cool about watching movies on it...50" TV or 100-foot IMAX screen, doesn't matter because it's like a Holodeck (only catch, again, is the resolution & the pixels...movies are clear, just has the SDE, which I find fatiguing).
So you have full peripheral vision? I find that rather hard to believe. I read the pixel issue with DK2 was resolved in the retail model though.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
Less people are going to buy a Vive though (because Rift is owned by Facebook, I am SURE they are going to be advertising the heck out of it on FB), so it's really a wash. I assume that they mean if you order the controllers (which I think come with another camera) then you would be able to do the same thing as Vive.

I do not think they are far off. Most people are going to sit and play, at least until some killer apps come along. Those are not here yet.
VR's price puts it exclusively in enthusiast territory. Steam's platform with the giant Vive ad on the storefront will be more effective at reaching the target audience, IMO.

Edit: This is the sort of thing that irks me about Oculus. The NDAs on the Rift right up until launch while we've been extremely informed by HTC on the Vive since the Pre came out is fishy to me.

https://as.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4c7lag/virtual_desktop_will_only_be_available_on_steam/
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
126
VR's price puts it exclusively in enthusiast territory. Steam's platform with the giant Vive ad on the storefront will be more effective at reaching the target audience, IMO.
True, but FB reaches far more than Steam does. I'm not on FB so I have no idea if they are advertising it or not, but it would be strange if they didn't at some point.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
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True, but FB reaches far more than Steam does. I'm not on FB so I have no idea if they are advertising it or not, but it would be strange if they didn't at some point.
Right, but target audience is key. How many pc gamers who have a pc that can run a HMD don't have Steam? I don't have FB anymore. I do have Steam.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
29,937
596
126
The big negative that I've read so far is just that the Oculus UI is just too barebones. I'll admit that I'd be annoyed if I had to install everything to my OS drive.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
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Hmm. Interesting info. By contrast everything I am seeing about the Vive still says the standing room-scale is what blows everyone away, but I still can't see how that will be much more than a gimmick at this time with limited space for the average user.

I do think they screwed up not planning on having different controllers for virtual reality, considering the Wii came out 10 years ago. That was a big misstep on their part.

Also, not a fan of their own store for apps. This info alone changes my stance on a few things. Steam has them beat in every way here, but at least neither are truly locked down. I have to imagine to get one or the other to work would not require much tweaking.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
29,937
596
126
Hmm. Interesting info. By contrast everything I am seeing about the Vive still says the standing room-scale is what blows everyone away, but I still can't see how that will be much more than a gimmick at this time with limited space for the average user.
It's all going to depend on what games/programs utilize it. Heck, I was able to wow a friend just by showing him the VR desktop video and that's a seated experience!

Also, not a fan of their own store for apps. This info alone changes my stance on a few things. Steam has them beat in every way here, but at least neither are truly locked down. I have to imagine to get one or the other to work would not require much tweaking.
Yeah, the store/portal just seems like it was pushed out without enough features. The Ars article mentioned that while you can add friends and see what they're doing, you can't message them through the program or anything like that.

Although, I think what may end up being the biggest problem for me is all the remarks that the Rift is really hard to put on and take off if you wear glasses. Supposedly, the PlayStation VR is the easiest for that (since it folds down) and the Vive is a bit easier than the Rift. I guess I'll have to fumble around and poke myself in the eye a few times trying to put contacts in for once!
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
45,577
2,833
126
Hmm. Interesting info. By contrast everything I am seeing about the Vive still says the standing room-scale is what blows everyone away, but I still can't see how that will be much more than a gimmick at this time with limited space for the average user.

I do think they screwed up not planning on having different controllers for virtual reality, considering the Wii came out 10 years ago. That was a big misstep on their part.

Also, not a fan of their own store for apps. This info alone changes my stance on a few things. Steam has them beat in every way here, but at least neither are truly locked down. I have to imagine to get one or the other to work would not require much tweaking.
Yeah, but (just a wild guess here) I bet the Oculus easily has 10x the pre-orders of the Vive, and part of that was keeping the initial price lower. $200 more is a lot of money for a device that a lot of consumers see as virtually the same. Plus everyone is already familiar with the Xbox controller, you know?

Having Steam behind the Vive is pretty huge though...I can't think of the last time I got a PC game that wasn't through Steam. They have like a Netflix level of convenience, which is pretty compelling for me an end-user. I pre-ordered both the Oculus & Vive (planning on selling whichever one I don't like as much); right now I'm leaning towards keeping the Vive because:

1. The Lighthouses
2. The controllers
3. Steam integration

It seems like a much more turn-key, integrated system overall. Might not have as many quality games at the inception as Oculus, but I think over time, that trio above may win out.
 

PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
1,549
66
91
I can't think of the last time I got a PC game that wasn't through Steam. They have like a Netflix level of convenience, which is pretty compelling for me an end-user.
Crysis 3 and Watch Dogs are on Uplay without Steam if you chose it that way. And Crysis 3 isn't even on Steam yet. You may not like the game play of either one but that's a different matter. I have both for the visuals mainly.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
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That's the very link he was talking about. An open platform that is kept closed by forcing devs to get DRM keys. Quite a different lay of the land than open platforms we've come to accept.

By contrast, you can use Steam to launch any .exe and enable its overlay regardless of entering an arbitrary key for it.
 
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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
825
126
Then I'm not understanding what he's on about. This says you can use Steam. 99% of all games require Steam or some sort of DRM. Not sure why this is an issue NOW, since we've been complaining about it for years and no one cared. Complain about Origin, no one cares, etc etc. He seems like he is just mad about something personal.
 
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Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
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Then I'm not understanding what he's on about. This says you can use Steam. 99% of all games require Steam or some sort of DRM. Not sure why this is an issue NOW, since we've been complaining about it for years and no one cared. Complain about Origin, no one cares, etc etc. He seems like he is just mad about something personal.
By contrast, you can use Steam to launch any .exe and enable its overlay regardless of entering an arbitrary key for it.
He's saying that the Oculus store is not open and flexible like Steam's. You don't need any keys or DRM to get around in order to use it to run any software with its overlay, integration, and tools.

Adding a key to Steam is a convenience as it adds it to you online account for later, but it's not needed if you just want to use with software you already own.
 
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