Question Geekbench 6 released and calibrated against Core i7-12700

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The competition is literally made by the same fab, if Apple was having yield issues so would AMD and Intel, unless you think Apple's designers are incompetent and are sending TSMC designs that inherently yield less well than their x86 brethren.
So Qualcomm's binning issues with Oryon point to the Nuvia team being incompetent?
 

MS_AT

Senior member
Jul 15, 2024
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Apple is not having any issues with yields. Other than the (major) hiccup that was N3B, TSMC has been firing on all cylinders. The competition is literally made by the same fab, if Apple was having yield issues so would AMD and Intel, unless you think Apple's designers are incompetent and are sending TSMC designs that inherently yield less well than their x86 brethren.
Shouldn't they be more likely to run into yield issues thanks to the simple fact that M4 pro and Max are I guess physically bigger than Zen5 chiplets?
 

gdansk

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Shouldn't they be more likely to run into yield issues thanks to the simple fact that M4 pro and Max are I guess physically bigger than Zen5 chiplets?
GPUs often have some duplicated structures for yield purposes. And since most the die area is GPU who knows.
 

Doug S

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2020
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So Qualcomm's binning issues with Oryon point to the Nuvia team being incompetent?

Apple doesn't bin on speed or power, they bin to a limited extent on functional blocks - though at the scale they do so most of the "lesser" versions are likely to be fully functional.

That means Apple has to have a fairly conservative pass/fail frequency that basically all of the fully functional chips will quality at. If Apple binned like Qualcomm/Intel/AMD they'd be able to offer faster versions of their chips but one thing Apple hates is having a lot of SKUs. That was true even when they were buying chips from Intel and they had access to a much wider variety of frequency/power/core counts.

Another problem with binning on frequency is that if your demand models are off you have a shortage of higher bins, whether the "higher" bin is high frequency or low TDP. We've seen that sort of thing from Intel, even in their prime (i.e. not talking about paper launches like the 1.13 GHz P3) Were they incompetent then? No, they just guessed wrong about demand and there were more buyers than they had chips in those bin(s) coming out of the fab.
 

Doug S

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2020
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Shouldn't they be more likely to run into yield issues thanks to the simple fact that M4 pro and Max are I guess physically bigger than Zen5 chiplets?

You always have lower yield at larger sizes, though as gdansk mentions in regular structures like caches (other than L1) and GPU/NPU you can build in some redundancy. Whether or to what extent Apple or other companies do I have no idea, you'll have to ask someone smarter.

If for example you have 90% yield with a 100 mm^2 chip you'll have 81% yield at 200 mm^2 and 66% at 400 mm^2. Given that Apple is binning a lot more functional units in M4 Max (P cores, GPU cores, memory controllers, maybe SLC I'm not sure) they're able to compensate for that by recovering many of the defective 400 mm^2 (dunno the actual size but safe to say it is in the ballpark) M4 Max dies. If 66% are fully functional that's more than enough to satisfy demand, and maybe you recover another 10-15% of "bad" dies for the lower bin, and your yield is 80%.

So my handy internet calculator says you'd get 140 400 mm^2 dies on a wafer, if you get 100 that you can sell (that's 71% yield) and it costs $25K per wafer that's $250 per chip. Obviously there's test/packaging etc. but even with that pessimistic yield estimate that's a cost of at most $300 per M4 Max (assuming 400 mm^2 which is just a wild guess) which is more than competitive with what OEMs are paying for Intel/AMD's top bin laptop chips. Apple's costs are fine.
 

Det0x

Golden Member
Sep 11, 2014
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Tuned 9800X3D

1732140744492.png

Not too shabby for a 8core X3D chip 🤣

Also did a Geekbench AI run :innocent:
1732140870450.png
 
Jul 27, 2020
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File compression, object detection and background blur are either hindered badly by SMT due to partitioning of core resources or the extra threads are getting bandwidth starved. What's your RAM speed and timings? Could you try getting to 3733 MT/s by relaxing the timings and do another comparison?
 

Tup3x

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2016
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I see from your sig that it's currently at 3600 CL16. Should be trivial to get to 3733 CL18.
To be honest, going higher than 3600 likely wouldn't be worth it (assuming that it's even stable). I could gain quite a bit if I'd tweak the (sub)timings. It's still unlikely that I'd notice any real difference anywhere.