Gears of War's online cheat detection features/ expired certificate disables game

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: chizow
Again, you can argue with the rationale of the decision, but the fact remains, they cite piracy as the basis of their decision. How is this hard to understand?

1) Developers CITING that your house is blue does not make your house blue. They are directly motivated to spin the blame on failures towards piracy and further prop up successes with the notion that they would have done even better without piracy. Business is business.

2) Correlation does not imply causation. I can show you a graph depicting high correlation between Lebron James FT% and global warming over the course of several years. Your arguments revolve around the notion that if X happened, then Y happened, then clearly X is causing Y. That might be enough for you but in actuality both issues could be independent, or even both caused by a third factor. Your statements that the primary problem with PC sales is piracy is all the better for proof which you aren't providing.

I've made both of these points multiple times now and you continue to quote developer PR and sales numbers which are not proof of causation of anything. I am not dismissing that piracy may be a factor with some developers abandoning the PC platform but it is overly simplifying a complex issue to say that it is the primary factor when it is easy to list plenty of advantages in publishing a console game over a PC game.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: JoshGuru7
I've made both of these points multiple times now and you continue to quote developer PR and sales numbers which are not proof of causation of anything. I am not dismissing that piracy may be a factor with some developers abandoning the PC platform but it is overly simplifying a complex issue to say that it is the primary factor when it is easy to list plenty of advantages in publishing a console game over a PC game.

I'd advise not wasting your time with chizow. He's just going to reply with 5 paragraphs of nonsense and links to articles where people state opinions not facts. The problem is that he thinks he's right no matter what common sense you throw at him. Oh, and if you don't believe piracy is the number one cause of companies switching to consoles, then you are automatically a lowlife pirate in his eyes.

 

[you2]

Back to the topic when the f**k is epic going to fix this s**t ? Btw I love how the error message CLAIMS the consumer has modified the binary. Why cant' they actually put out an error message that says "We f**ked" up the cert please contact customer support" instead of "You f**ked up the binary reinstall' when reinstalling will clearly not fix the problem.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: JoshGuru7
1) Developers CITING that your house is blue does not make your house blue. They are directly motivated to spin the blame on failures towards piracy and further prop up successes with the notion that they would have done even better without piracy. Business is business.

Except they're not just citing it based on nothing, they're backing it up with a picture, the color swatch, the paint can and even the receipt that say its blue. And none of that changes the fact piracy is the main reason cited for shifting focus to the consoles.

You can claim their motivation is to pin the blame of failure on piracy alone but again, your argument falls flat on its face once you compare overall sales among multi-platform launches, especially with titles that aren't considered a failure. Honestly this should be easy enough for you to refute, link a single simultaneously launched title where the PC outsells the consoles or where the PC has a lower piracy rate than the consoles. You can't, because such a title doesn't exist.

2) Correlation does not imply causation. I can show you a graph depicting high correlation between Lebron James FT% and global warming over the course of several years. Your arguments revolve around the notion that if X happened, then Y happened, then clearly X is causing Y. That might be enough for you but in actuality both issues could be independent, or even both caused by a third factor. Your statements that the primary problem with PC sales is piracy is all the better for proof which you aren't providing.

Except when such overwhelming correlation exists, the simplest answer is often the correct one, a clear application of Ockham's Razor. Unless you can identify and justify a correlation between a 3rd factor the obvious conclusion is that your counter-argument has no substance.

I've made both of these points multiple times now and you continue to quote developer PR and sales numbers which are not proof of causation of anything. I am not dismissing that piracy may be a factor with some developers abandoning the PC platform but it is overly simplifying a complex issue to say that it is the primary factor when it is easy to list plenty of advantages in publishing a console game over a PC game.

Rofl PR and sales numbers. Are you now questioning the validity of sales figures, the figures backed by financial reports filed with the SEC? Seriously, you've provided jack shit in terms of evidence, you're going to have to do better before you question actual data from widely available public resources. Until then I'm going to assume you have no response or counter to the fact piracy is the main reason developers are shifting focus away from the PC.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
BS

RofLOL go away, noob lulz

Originally posted by: mindcycle
I'd advise not wasting your time with chizow. He's just going to reply with 5 paragraphs of nonsense and links to articles where people state opinions not facts. The problem is that he thinks he's right no matter what common sense you throw at him. Oh, and if you don't believe piracy is the number one cause of companies switching to consoles, then you are automatically a lowlife pirate in his eyes.

Yep, paragraphs and nonsense from the people who actually matter and make decisions in the industry. Again, you don't have to listen to a word I say, I've linked directly to quotes to the people that matter where they state it themselves in no unclear terms. The only people who seem to have problems comprehending this are the ones too stupid to understand plain English, but given your history and difficulties with simple definitions like piracy and stealing, its no surprise you'd come to that conclusion.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
Yep, paragraphs and nonsense from the people who actually matter and make decisions in the industry. Again, you don't have to listen to a word I say, I've linked directly to quotes to the people that matter where they state it themselves in no unclear terms. The only people who seem to have problems comprehending this are the ones too stupid to understand plain English, but given your history and difficulties with simple definitions like piracy and stealing, its no surprise you'd come to that conclusion.

Ah yes. The multi-page rant where you futility tried proving to me that copyright violation is the exact same thing as stealing a physical object. Backing up your argument with statements and opinions from senators and state representatives who probably just started using the "interwerwebs" in 2004. I remember that one quite clearly. lol

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Ah yes. The multi-page rant where you futility tried proving to me that copyright violation is the exact same thing as stealing a physical object. Backing up your argument with statements and opinions from senators and state representatives who probably just started using the "interwerwebs" in 2004. I remember that one quite clearly. lol

No I never said it was the exact same thing as stealing a physical object, that was just you clinging to 22 year old case law with Dowling vs. US. I concluded my arguments with the following, looks like plain English once again prevails.....


Sure they do, as has already been linked above with Senate and House testimony along with two amendments to law stating in plain english that criminal copyright infringement is "Theft".

And from the United States Sentencing Commission's Policy Development Team Report for the NET Act, explicit language directly lifted from sentencing guidance:

• The NET Act reverses the practical consequences of LaMacchia and criminalizes computer theft of copyrighted works, whether or not the defendant derives a direct financial benefit or commercial advantage from the act(s) of misappropriation. See 17 U.S.C. §506(a)(2)
• In the fraud and theft context, the Commission is currently developing alternative approaches to defining and calculating loss.
• The base offense level of 6 is the same as for fraud offenses, but 2 levels greater than the base offense level for theft. The loss table for theft, however, begins at $100 instead of $2,000. Thus, both tables yield the same offense level for thefts involving more than $2,000.
• Both the fraud (§2F1.1) and theft (§2B1.1) guidelines contain numerous SOCs, although many of these were added after the drafting of the original guidelines (some in response to legislative directives).
• These consumers are additional victims of a crime that is part fraud perpetrated against them, and part theft from the mark-holder.

I'd say the language of the law is pretty clear, piracy/copyright infringement is the same as theft in the view of the law.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow

I'd say the language of the law is pretty clear, piracy/copyright infringement is the same as theft in the view of the law.

Too bad what you're linking to is an interpretation of the Net act and not the actual legal terms contained within the actual Net act itself.

But whatever, i'm not gonna go back into all that. Not worth my time.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Too bad what you're linking to is an interpretation of the Net act and not the actual legal terms contained within the actual Net act itself.

But whatever, i'm not gonna go back into all that. Not worth my time.

Yep, the word THEFT is stated in plain English in both pieces of legislation, the accompanying text define the term. Its kind of like....Jeopardy, if you ask what Theft is, you don't define a word by repeating it. Plain English prevails again.....

 

[Regs]

A lot of people here actually side with chizow's perception, like me. Though trying to "school" people on the processes of economics, ethics, and consumer behavior is like trying to teach a 3 legged horse how to trot.

The statistics are alarming, even though statistics are in their nature not an exact depiction to an extint. I remember seeing a poll on here not to long ago that by an overwhelming majority would pirate a game if it included DRM. The circular logic that I've seen stated is absolutely appalling.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
No I never said it was the exact same thing as stealing a physical object, that was just you clinging to 22 year old case law with Dowling vs. US. I concluded my arguments with the following, looks like plain English once again prevails.....

I'll just jet the following speak for itself..

Originally posted by: chizow
Stolen data is a physical object if electrons have mass and also reside on a physical medium, which are also physical objects. If data wasn't a physical object, it simply could not exist. This again just shows why laws are constantly being revised and why prior rulings are superceded or overturned.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
I'll just jet the following speak for itself..

Originally posted by: chizow
Stolen data is a physical object if electrons have mass and also reside on a physical medium, which are also physical objects. If data wasn't a physical object, it simply could not exist. This again just shows why laws are constantly being revised and why prior rulings are superceded or overturned.

Yep, that just proved even Dowling vs. US didn't apply in this application, nor did it have to, as I never once claimed electronic theft or piracy was the same thing as physical theft, nor did it have to be in order to be in order to be regarded as theft under US law.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Regs


A lot of people here actually side with chizow's perception, like me. Though trying to "school" people on the processes of economics, ethics, and consumer behavior is like trying to teach a 3 legged horse how to trot.

The statistics are alarming, even though statistics are in their nature not an exact depiction to an extint. I remember seeing a poll on here not to long ago that by an overwhelming majority would pirate a game if it included DRM. The circular logic that I've seen stated is absolutely appalling.

While its true its pretty futile, it has to start somewhere I suppose, since online forums and blogs foster and perpetuate much of these misconceptions, FUD and pro-piracy/anti-DRM agendas. It might not make any difference, but discrediting and exposing their flawed arguments is certainly better than saying and doing nothing.

Again, once people start seeing their favorite titles and dev studios going under along with more console exclusives, they might get mad enough to do something about it. Some of it is changing the culture and acceptance of piracy, although I personally think its going to come down to paying customers accepting more invasive and effective DRM to reduce piracy. At that point, if a title flops, it'll flop on its own merit, not someone's subjective belief system.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
Yep, that just proved even Dowling vs. US didn't apply in this application, nor did it have to, as I never once claimed electronic theft or piracy was the same thing as physical theft, nor did it have to be in order to be in order to be regarded as theft under US law.

Humm.. Now your stuttering. Again, i'll just let that statement speak for itself.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: chizow
Yep, that just proved even Dowling vs. US didn't apply in this application, nor did it have to, as I never once claimed electronic theft or piracy was the same thing as physical theft, nor did it have to, in order to be regarded as theft under US law.

Humm.. Now your stuttering. Again, i'll just let that statement speak for itself.

Fixed. Amazing coming from someone who doesn't understand plain English. And while we're being anal retentive, its you're, not your. So once again, to recap:

1) I never said physical theft was the exact same as electronic theft as you claimed, nor does it have to be under US law, its still theft.
2) The quoted portion simply proved the 22-year old case law you were clinging to in your argument didn't apply in this application to begin with.
3) The physical requirement of theft no longer applies in order to qualify as an act as theft, as Dowling vs. US has been superseded by 2 amendments to law.

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: Canai
So if piracy on consoles isn't so bad, how is it that Nintendo lost a billion dollars in 2007 due to piracy? http://news.softpedia.com/news...do-in-2007-78918.shtml

When I worked at a big box retail store, we would emphasize how easy it was to mod a PSP and pirate games. This was so we could get good attach statistics by selling a large memory card with the system. Doing this worked really well when dealing with customers who looked younger than 30.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: chizow
Fixed. Amazing coming from someone who doesn't understand plain English.

1) I never said physical theft was the exact same as electronic theft as you claimed, nor does it have to be under US law, its still theft.

You do realize that every time you reply it makes you look more and more out of touch with what you've been preaching in these forums. Seems like getting the last word in is very important to you, but you frequently contradict yourself by doing so. I guess it's easy to forget what you wrote when you're investing so much time into proving everyone wrong. Just because i'm in a generous mood i'll point out more clearly where you, in "plain English", try and state that physical theft and copyright infringement are the exact same thing.

Originally posted by: chizow
Stolen data is a physical object if electrons have mass

Then later in that thread you try to make up for that mistake.

Originally posted by: chizow
No, the above statements I made are fact, electrons do have mass and physical media are also physical objects.

..which is true, but not at all what you said originally.

I find it quite amusing actually, and rather enjoy you fumble around with all your contradictory statements. ..and while I completely expect another reply from you trying to justify how you didn't actually say that, I look forward to it as well.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: chizow
Until then I'm going to assume you have no response or counter to the fact piracy is the main reason developers are shifting focus away from the PC.

Neither of us have proof of anything, the only difference is that I appear to be the only one of us two who understands that.

Originally posted by: chizow
You can claim their motivation is to pin the blame of failure on piracy alone but again, your argument falls flat on its face once you compare overall sales among multi-platform launches, especially with titles that aren't considered a failure.

And as I've already explained multiple times, there are many factors involved in a discrepancy of overall platform sales. I think it is better evidence that gamers simply prefer the 360 and PS3 to PC gaming these days, but you're welcome to your opinion on that subject.

 

[BladeVenom]

Originally posted by: chizow
You can claim their motivation is to pin the blame of failure on piracy alone but again, your argument falls flat on its face once you compare overall sales among multi-platform launches, especially with titles that aren't considered a failure.

Prove it. Show me the numbers for:
Orange Box
Left 4 Dead
Fallout 3
Unreal Tournament 3
Spore vs. Spore Creatures

The PS3 or 360 has nothing that can compare to the sales of WoW or The Sims series.

 

[Maximilian]

Chizow = Insane

Just look at the effort hes putting in to prove a futile point.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: Maximilian
Chizow = Insane

Just look at the effort hes putting in to prove a futile point.

People actually read what he says?

Way to many post from some random guy who keeps saying the same thing over and over.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: mindcycle
You do realize that every time you reply it makes you look more and more out of touch with what you've been preaching in these forums. Seems like getting the last word in is very important to you, but you frequently contradict yourself by doing so.

LMAO, how many times have you recused yourself from replying, only to come back just to prove you're too stupid to understand plain English? Again, what was that about "paragraphs of nonsense", ie. direct quotes from devs and publishers directly stating, in no unclear terms that piracy on the PC was their primary reason for focusing on consoles?

I guess it's easy to forget what you wrote when you're investing so much time into proving everyone wrong. Just because i'm in a generous mood i'll point out more clearly where you, in "plain English", try and state that physical theft and copyright infringement are the exact same thing.

Originally posted by: chizow
Stolen data is a physical object if electrons have mass

A direct reply to your original incorrect application of Dowling vs. US where you claimed copyright infringement could not be theft because it was not physical property. I countered that it did not have to be physical property in order to be theft under statutory law, yet you continued on, insisting copying data was not the same as physical theft. Once again, at no time did I say physical theft was the exact same as copyright infringement, nor does it have to be in order to be considered theft under US law, as copyright infringement is clearly a superset of theft.

Then later in that thread you try to make up for that mistake.

Originally posted by: chizow
No, the above statements I made are fact, electrons do have mass and physical media are also physical objects.

..which is true, but not at all what you said originally.

And directly refuted your claim:

"Your statement is an opinion not a fact. Show me a court case where that was argued and ruled upon."

So again, my point showed that your 20+ year old application of Dowling vs. US was not only inapplicable, it wasn't even accurate. A point further reinforced with direct testimony from law-makers stating "[W]e value intellectual property . . . in the same way that we value the real and personal property of our citizens real property" and ?pirating works online is the same as shoplifting a videotape, book or record from a store? along with corresponding amendments to law, case law, and USSC sentencing guidance.

I find it quite amusing actually, and rather enjoy you fumble around with all your contradictory statements. ..and while I completely expect another reply from you trying to justify how you didn't actually say that, I look forward to it as well.

Again, where are my quotes and statements contradictory? They directly refute your false claims and are consistent with my point, that piracy is indeed theft under US law, a reality your trolling will not change. I fully expect you to recuse yourself from directly replying, only to rejoin later with some other non sequitur.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: JoshGuru7
Neither of us have proof of anything, the only difference is that I appear to be the only one of us two who understands that.

Actually I've already provided pages of proof, including direct quotes from industry leaders, directly backing the statement you had issue with, that piracy is the primary reason cited by developers for their shift to consoles. Once again, you can disagree with their decision, you can disagree with their rationale, but that doesn't change the fact piracy was the primary basis for that conclusion.

And as I've already explained multiple times, there are many factors involved in a discrepancy of overall platform sales. I think it is better evidence that gamers simply prefer the 360 and PS3 to PC gaming these days, but you're welcome to your opinion on that subject.

What have you explained multiple times? That it could be anything except for the most obvious correlation cited by Developers, analysts and sales/piracy data?

As for the bolded portions above, amazing someone who claims to be so "rational" doesn't see the paradoxical, borderline comical nature of such a comment. In reality, its not my opinion, its the opinion of the people in the industry that make decisions that actually matter. I'd say their opinion weighs more than the opinions of a nobody like you.

 

[Maximilian]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: JoshGuru7
Neither of us have proof of anything, the only difference is that I appear to be the only one of us two who understands that.

Actually I've already provided pages of proof, including direct quotes from industry leaders, directly backing the statement you had issue with, that piracy is the primary reason cited by developers for their shift to consoles. Once again, you can disagree with their decision, you can disagree with their rationale, but that doesn't change the fact piracy was the primary basis for that conclusion.

And as I've already explained multiple times, there are many factors involved in a discrepancy of overall platform sales. I think it is better evidence that gamers simply prefer the 360 and PS3 to PC gaming these days, but you're welcome to your opinion on that subject.

What have you explained multiple times? That it could be anything except for the most obvious correlation cited by Developers, analysts and sales/piracy data?

As for the bolded portions above, amazing someone who claims to be so "rational" doesn't see the paradoxical, borderline comical nature of such a comment. In reality, its not my opinion, its the opinion of the people in the industry that make decisions that actually matter. I'd say their opinion weighs more than the opinions of a nobody like you.

Well theres only 7 pages in this thread and a good chunk is actually about what the OP asked. I want more proof. Type out a further 7 pages about DRM something etc and we will go from there.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
Prove it. Show me the numbers for:
Orange Box
Left 4 Dead
Fallout 3
Unreal Tournament 3
Spore vs. Spore Creatures

I'm not going to research all of those titles, as much of the Data isn't available because Valve doesn't release their sales, particularly online sales through Steam. Spore isn't the same game and isn't even available on comparable hardware, so its irrelevant in this discussion, but here's one of the titles examined:

Fallout 3

VG Chartz shows ~3.2 million for Consoles, 2 million on 360, 1.2 million on PS3

There isn't an exact quote of PC sales, but Bethesda at one point said ~5 million total copies shipped for all platforms, so approximately 1.8m for the PC, but they all sold relatively well. Now compare that to piracy rates:

TweakGuides Torrent Figures

• PC downloads: 271,563
• XBox360 downloads: 19,988
• PS3 downloads: N/A, none found.

Data backed by, *gasp* more more comments from Devs directly stating piracy is the biggest problem on the PC right now::

• Piracy is still far more prevalent on the PC side, which has serious implications for studios like Bethesda Softworks, whose development bread-and-butter has been PCs.
  
  ?It is probably the most?[long pause]?probably the most difficult issue specifically facing PC gaming right now,? said somberly-toned ?Fallout 3? product manager Pete Hines to me after playing four hours of his new game a few weeks ago. ?How are we gonna walk that line??

And again, they're not comments based on nothing, piracy data is further reinforced by support calls:

• ?The amount of times we see stuff coming through where it?s like, the resolution to the problem was [the] guy had a pirated copy of the game?? said a visibly frustrated Hines. ?The amount of money we spend supporting people who didn?t pay us for the game in the first place?it?s f?ing ludicrous. We talk to other developers, guys who are [like] ?Yeah, it?s a third, it?s 50% of our [customer] support.??

People get upset about DRM punishing the paying customer, but honestly, DRM doesn't even come close to the impact piracy has on the industry when Devs start lumping the entire PC gaming population as 2nd-class citizens through exclusives and staggered launches, again, often citing piracy as the reason.

The PS3 or 360 has nothing that can compare to the sales of WoW or The Sims series.

Nor did I claim they did, as they're clearly exclusives and not multi-platform titles. If you want to open it up to exclusives, you'd clearly see Nintendo dominates all with the likes of Wii Fit and Mario Kart.