• We should now be fully online following an overnight outage. Apologies for any inconvenience, we do not expect there to be any further issues.

Gays in the military?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
<< scenes like in Starship Troopers will be very possible. >>

IBMer,

May the Church Lady take away your virginity! That scene in ST didn't depict the final frenzied orgy; hey, take a group of young hormone drones and it could easily happen. Even if you remove all societal conditioning, our base urges would kick in and cause a rucous.

But I agree your points are somewhat valid. In fact, society is the barrier to entry with regard to gays serving in the military -- if it was status quo, there would be no issues at all.
 

Shuxclams

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,286
15
81
Anyone that can beat the tar out of Vallhalla1 or stephan can join the military, which would allow all Gays into the military. :D






SHUX
 

Valhalla1

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 1999
8,678
0
76
umm.. yeah. i've seen some pretty fruity feminine gays, and I'm 6 foot 1, 260 pounds, ex-high school football player and district 4-5A semi-finalist in my weight class in UIL powerlifting competition.


'nuff said.
 

Format C:

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,662
0
0
I have no problem with consenting adults doing whatever they wish in private, whatever their sexual orientation happens to be. The role of the military however is to break things and kill people and as such is NOT the proper place for social experimentation of any kind. Until such time as gays are accepted as a normal part of society in general they have no business in the armed forces, period. And since I'm already out on this limb I'll crawl out a little bit further and say that co-ed combat units are wrong also. A soldier on the battlefield should only have one objective with absolutely zero distractions. Complete the mission and survive for another.
 

IBMer

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2000
1,137
0
76
umm.. yeah. i've seen some pretty fruity feminine gays, and I'm 6 foot 1, 260 pounds, ex-high school football player and district 4-5A semi-finalist in my weight class in UIL powerlifting competition.

Oh and that is the entire envisionment of masculinity. I have seen some feminine straight guys as well. As well as some headstrong woman that people thought were lesbians. It is the overgeneralization that all gay men are fruity and all lesbian woman are butch. That is just closed minded biggot talk. There is a much more diverse population out there.
 

Shuxclams

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,286
15
81


<< umm.. yeah. i've seen some pretty fruity feminine gays, and I'm 6 foot 1, 260 pounds, ex-high school football player and district 4-5A semi-finalist in my weight class in UIL powerlifting competition.


'nuff said.
>>


You said nothing, actually your prolly closer to the &quot;Gays&quot; that you despise and worry so much about at the Gym where you lift wieghts. Furthermore any punk that claims &quot;I was a high school jock&quot; automatically makes you one big ass loser. :D





SHUX
 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
2,355
0
0
&quot;I have no problem with consenting adults doing whatever they wish in private, whatever their sexual orientation happens to be. The role of the military however is to break things and kill people and as such is NOT the proper place for social experimentation of any kind. Until such time as gays are accepted as a normal part of society in general they have no business in the armed forces, period. And since I'm already out on this limb I'll crawl out a little bit further and say that co-ed combat units are wrong also. A soldier on the battlefield should only have one objective with absolutely zero distractions. Complete the mission and survive for another.&quot;

The simple fact is, Format C that through out history many of the greatest military commanders of all time were gay, including Alexander the Great &amp; Richard the Lionheart (who even had an affair with Philip of France while on the Crusades) &amp; Gordon of Khartoum.

BTW, if you think Gays wouldn't be be able to break things and kill people as well as straight men, think again. When Alexander was campaigning through Bactria (northern afghanastan) he came across a Greek City. Well these Greeks put out a feast for Alexander &amp; his generals. However during the feast Alexander learnt these Greeks were descended from Greek traiters who allied themselves with the Persians nearly 150 years previously. Alexander then ordered his troops to massacre every man, woman &amp; child in the town.

Another example was when Richard beseiged tyre (or was it Acre) he had the 40000 infedels (even though half were Greek Orthadox) executed because Saladin was late with the ransom gold.

Now about your comment that A soldier on the battlefield should only have one objective with absolutely zero distractions. Complete the mission and survive for another &amp; your implication that co-ed units compromise the mission.

Well did you know the Red Army was a fully co-ed army in WWII &amp; amongst the most successful tank commanders &amp; fighter pilots were women. 2 of these woman fighter aces actually had more kills than any Americans fighter aces. Yes that's right there were woman in the Red Army's air arm that were more successful in shooting down planes than any of America's airmen. Same goes to the Russian Tank commanders, who had kill ratios that made the tankers in the west look like beginners. Actually a woman led the 1st 'Special Commando' reconasance raid into Berlin.

Also gays have caused no problem in conscripted armies where it wasnt a good enough excuse for an exemption, for example in the cold war conscripted armies of the Nertherlands, West Germany &amp; Norway &amp; the South African Army.

Actually here in Australia the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy was invalidated by anti-discrimination laws over 10 years ago, &amp; the offical aceptance of gays in the military hasnt caused any problems, what so ever.

To those who worry about showering &amp; living with men who might be attracted by you; well most of the ships in the RAN were designed for men only crews, so the women crew members on those ship sleep, shower &amp; defecate with the men too. So if the women crew members can put up with men learing at them in the locker rooms, etc, then the men can to.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Stefan Whats wrong with feeling akward around gays? They are the ones that have the problem. Being a queer is not normal. If it was, people would accept it.
Being Gay is well know in the animal world, gays have been around ever since mankind stopped throwing sticks at each other and even long before that. With the Greek, most men there prefered gay sex for plesure and the women were just there to cook, clean and breed. People actually do accept it, I have known a few gay men and few lesbians so I´v gotten used to it and accepted it. Its obvious that you probably dont know any gay people and dont want to, because you are afraid of the &quot;unknown&quot;.

Valhalla1 why? because it causes problems. maybe I'm just upset that when I was in high school I couldt hop in the shower with all those hot steamy wet naked girls.. mmm.. but gays in the military get to shower and sleep with, etc. all the men they want
Lets look at it this way. Lets say we have a shower room with 30 people showering there, and lets say 3 of them are gay. Will they do anything? no they will not, no one would. Now lets turn this around, you and two other guys are in a shower room with 27 lesbians, would you do anything?

Valhalla1 I'd be willing to bet that there are just as many gay rapes as straight rapes. prison sex isn't exactly consentual.
So what you are saying that every rape in prison is made by someone gay, taking advantage of the poor and few stright guys in prison?

GL One day being gay won't be such a big deal (for those who are unprejudiced or try to be, it already isn't). 30 some odd years ago, Americans were grappling with allowing &quot;colours&quot; into the school system. Apparently it would cause some conflict and be very distracting to the &quot;white&quot; students. But...oh wait...let me double check my facts...the only people that caused distractions and conflicts were white people who had their heads bent on hate for the sake of hate. Yeah they burned cars, threatened students and shot at fellow white U.S. Marshalls. All the while, the coloured people only wanted to go to class.
Sooo true, very well put :)

Shuxclams You said nothing, actually your prolly closer to the &quot;Gays&quot; that you despise and worry so much about at the Gym where you lift wieghts. Furthermore any punk that claims &quot;I was a high school jock&quot; automatically makes you one big ass loser.
Hehe, and that the computer geeks speaking, the loosers of high school and victors of life, jocks were the victors of hichschool but loosers of life. To bad 30 year old jocks still think they are in high school.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
Lets face it, the military is not a 'feel good' social club. It's an organization built to defend the country with force. It has to do so in the most efficient way possible, which means the number of distractions is to be kept to a minimum.

When you have a group of heterosexual men together, there is no sexual tension, there are no romantic relationships, and thus there are few distractions from the mission at hand.

Now if you add openly gay men on board, you are bound to create distractions, there will be relationships between gay men, there will be tension (sexual or otherwise) between the straight men and the gay men - regardless of who's &quot;fault&quot; it is, it's a part of human nature. The same holds true for women as well. I'm convinced women can serve their country in combat situations just as well as men can. However, adding them to the &quot;mix&quot; without proper segregation just creates too many potential problems. Thus, adding openly gay men (or women) creates unneeded distractions and potential problems (who needs a &quot;love spat&quot; between soldiers??). Don't ask don't tell is a decent compromise, but I really think it should just be a simple &quot;no&quot;. When enlisting, ask the person if they are gay. If they say yes, don't accept them into the military and avoid all the hassles.
 

Zeph

Member
Mar 16, 2000
76
0
0
Wow..talk about living in the virtual world..

So...umm..let's see here... According to some we can take mature &quot;adults&quot; give them guns and teach them to kill and accept the reality and possibility of being killed, demand and expect them to deal with the mental and physical rigor of the military....then at the same time declare them incompetent and unable to deal with the presence of gays around them...it would be too distracting and, by God, they just might get looked at...

I'm not sure, but perhaps people deserve more credit than that, especially in an environment with death and discipline at its very core...

 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Morally I absolutely endorse gays in the military.

Practically I am not so sure because of what Tagej just said, as an example...I mean obviously there are some real reasons against it - beyond the &quot;oh thats gross&quot; childish mentality. Thats why I say ideally I have no problem with it at all.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0


<< So...umm..let's see here... According to some we can take mature &quot;adults&quot; give them guns and teach them to kill and accept the reality and possibility of being killed, demand and expect them to deal with the mental and physical rigor of the military....then at the same time declare them incompetent and unable to deal with the presence of gays around them...it would be too distracting and, by God, they just might get looked at... >>



LOL:D the world is very weird isnt it.
 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
0
0
Whoever said the army should not be co-ed has a point at least for the air force. It's a well known fact that women are naturally more invulnerable to the effects of G-forces than even the most fit of men. Time to have an all-women air force...

-GL
 

BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76
Czar,

I know 2 people that are gay. They both have a problem.
What is this magical unknown thing your speaking of?
 

IBMer

Golden Member
Jul 7, 2000
1,137
0
76
OMG 2 people reall?

How about this... 1 in 4 men are gay. Chances are you have a friend that is gay and hasn't told you. You probally couldn't tell either because not every gay person out there is swishy and feminine.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
IBMer

You're wrong if you think 1/4 men are gay. SUpposedly the stats are that 1/4 men have had a gay experience...I am not sure I believe these stats, but anyway - it does NOT mean that 1/4 men are gay in that that is the primary way to define them. I'd say that less than 1/10 adult men are truly gay.
 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
The military is not a fscking social experiment. If you haven't served or been in a military training environment, then you have no idea about this subject, plain and simple. Perhaps the problem lies in the homophobia of the rest of the heterosexual military -- tough. The fact is that those homophobic men comprise a larger part of the military and are the ones who should receive deference until the social norms change.

Do we get rid of the one gay guy or his 30 platoon mates? You do the math.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
tagej I agree with you. I don't think it should be allowed. There is a reason we seperate our women from our men in the military during duty. There are pitfalls having men and women in the military train together and do certain aspects of duty together. We seperate the woman from the man during these times to avoid one thing and one thing only, the emotional aspects of a relationship of a man and a woman. We're not talking about right or wrong. But if we are seperating the women from the men because of these reasons, are we now to allow a gay man who has the same desires as a woman be allowed to fall into the same dangers. Gay men are suceptible to the same dangers as a woman in this aspect and that is just the way it is. I am not saying they can't serve but clearly to say that it makes no difference is a lie. And believe lesbian women are in the same boat. If your not going to allow me to bathe and bunk with a woman in the military to avoid the emotional aspects a lesbian should also not be allowed. They have the same desires I do for women. Its either don't tell or no.
 

JasonG

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
252
0
0
You people just don't seem to get it that gays have been and always will be part of the military.

Many other countries now have open gays in the military and there are no problems such as those constantly repeated here, i.e. I beleive that there is a gay general in Holland.

During wartime the U.S. army has consistantly ignored the fact of gays serving because they needed the people. Gays participated in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf War. That's a fact.

Did you hear of any problems with gays being in these wars?

It really wouldn't change anything. Most gays as well as straight people don't want to be in the military anyway. Those that do want to serve should be able to do so.

Right now, the military can't even recruit enough people and yet they will throw out good soldiers who want to serve their country. All of us have spent the money to train these people eo be soldiers and now we just get rid of them because people can't get over their bigotry.

The same arguments of disruption, etc. were used against allowing blacks to serve side-by-side with whites before after WWII.

Basically people seem to be saying that because they're afraid of showering with gays, gays shouldn't be allowed in the military.

Well, why not have separate barracks for gays then just like women and men are separated? What about lesbians? We all know there are no lesbians in the military ;) .

'nuf said!
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Stefan

Why do they have problems?
Being gay is caused by a damaged cromoson, its rather common in nature actually.
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
It's not even a matter of the preference of the individuals or their lifestyle choices - it's not the &quot;yech&quot; factor. The bottom line is that emotional involvement it NOT an asset in military units. Emotional attachments and relationships can cause all sorts of problems, and the military is not like some corporate office - if people screw up or lose focus, other people lose their life. That's not something you play around with.
 

Cable God

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2000
3,251
0
71
I am not a bigot, nor do I believe in it, but I don't think they should be discriminated against like that. It's almost the same thing as racism in my book. Just because someone has a different sexual preference than the next person, or their color/nationality is different, they deserve to be treated the same as everyone else in my opinion....
 

JasonG

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
252
0
0
Tagej-

Are you telling me that there are not emotional attachments between straight men who serve together?

I think you are just plain wrong on that one.

Men who serve together (whether they are gay or straight) form many bonds especially in war time. This does not need to imply anything sexual.