Gay Is Not OK

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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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In the eyes of the law, they are.

They are not:

INA: ACT 301 - NATIONALS AND CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AT BIRTH



(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States. 302 persons born in Puerto Rico on or after April 11, 1899
http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-9679.html

Just last year they removed the several other portions where the mother was FAR more important (ie less restrictive) than the father in granting natural born citizenship.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but you do not get to treat your opinions as facts.

Are you really this stupid to think that men are women are exactly the same in all things?


Nope. Interfamilial marriage is something no person enjoys the right to do, so there is no inequality.

No person can marry someone of the same sex. You guys keep trying this one no matter how many times it fails.

You have some strange fantasies.

Saw it on his facebook page.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
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They are not:


http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-9679.html

Just last year they removed the several other portions where the mother was FAR more important (ie less restrictive) than the father in granting natural born citizenship.
The above isn't an issue of individual rights, so it is a red herring.



Are you really this stupid to think that men are women are exactly the same in all things?
If I was dealing with an intellectually honest person, I'd expect that person to cite where I stated that belief, but since I'm dealing with you, I know better than to expect that kind of candor.

The fact is, men and women are both persons, and all persons are entitled to equal protection under the Constitution.




No person can marry someone of the same sex.
You should read the news more often. Same-sex marriage was just passed here in Washington this week, and the same is legal in a growing number of states.

You guys keep trying this one no matter how many times it fails.
I guess when the facts are not in your favor, you must resort to inventing false ones.



Saw it on his facebook page.
A lie from you is about as surprising as the sun rising in the east.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
I don't think it's a false equivalency. Don't like plural marriage? Then don't have a plural marriage. All the gay marriage arguments apply equally.

That doesn't mean gays should be advocating for polygamist rights. That would only make it harder for them. But I think those who are pro-gay-marriage but actively oppose polygamy are hypocrites.

They're hypocrites only if they truly believe that the overall effect on society of same-sex marriages is approximately the same as for polygamous marriages. But if they truly believe that - for example - same-sex marriages are essentially benign while polygamous marriages are essentially harmful, then there's no hypocrisy.

And there's abundant evidence that polygamous marriages, as practiced in the U.S. are extremely harmful on the children in those communities. Underage girls forced into marriage and underage boys ejected from the communities and forced to fend for themselves are part and parcel to American polygamous communities.

Consider also that legalization of same-sex marriages would require almost no changes to existing law and public policies. On the other hand, legalization of polygamous marriages would require essentially unmanageable changes to existing laws and policies (think, for example, of how the tax laws would treat "families" consisting of hundreds of married adults and children; think of the essentially unlimited immigration and tax scams that would be possible with such marriages; think about how companies would handle health insurance for such "families.").

So there's a highly principled justification for supporting same-sex marriage while opposing polygamous marriages. And suggesting that the two are equivalent as a strategy for opposing same-sex marriage is dishonest.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
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426502_383014578391272_122256581133741_1497510_762685064_n.jpg


The better Church sign...
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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The above isn't an issue of individual rights, so it is a red herring.

:D you dismiss the proof you are wrong because it shows you as wrong! :D


Admit it, the sexes are not equal in the eyes of the law. You are wrong. I posted a law which proves it.

Admit you are wrong, go ahead, you can do it. Not hard, I have done it about things, so can you.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Gay marriage is not an equal rights issue. It's an expansion of rights issue. No one is allowed to marry people of the same sex, so everyone is treated equally.

Bad argument.

That argument never really made sense to me. Yes, the legal prohibition on marrying someone of the same sex applies equally to everyone, but the restriction does not have an equally negative impact on everyone. Straight people don't WANT to marry someone of the same sex, so prohibiting them from marrying someone of the same sex isn't really restricting their marriage rights at all. On the other hand, gay people ONLY want to marry someone of the same sex, so prohibiting gay marriage greatly impacts their marriage rights.

Think of it this way. A law that said that Sunday is the only day you can worship at church would apply equally to everyone, but I doubt Jews or Muslims would feel they were being given "equal rights".
Personally, I have no problem with polygamy, provided there is a limit on the number of partners, to remove the chaos from it (from a legal standpoint).
I would agree, but I don't know why polygamy (or incest, or bestiality or whatever) always makes it into gay marriage discussions. The idea seems to be that being in favor of lifting ONE restriction on marriage means you're in favor of lifting them all. Since a great number of people are in favor of straight marriage but not any other types, and since those are often the people making the polygamy/etc association with gay marriage, the idea of selective restriction seems like it should be an obvious one.
 
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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
You already have a relationship, government need not define it under a specific religious term such as marriage.

The government doesn't, as long as they then don't define it for anyone. Selectively approving marriages based on the gender and sexual preference of the participants is the issue.

I think the sign makes a valid point though. For all the "concerned citizens" trying to "protect" marriage from the gay menace, they seem remarkably blind to the fact that plenty of straight couples are hardly doing marriage any favors.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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That argument never really made sense to me. Yes, the legal prohibition on marrying someone of the same sex applies equally to everyone, but the restriction does not have an equally negative impact on everyone. Straight people don't WANT to marry someone of the same sex, so prohibiting them from marrying someone of the same sex isn't really restricting their marriage rights at all. On the other hand, gay people ONLY want to marry someone of the same sex, so prohibiting gay marriage greatly impacts their marriage rights.

Think of it this way. A law that said that Sunday is the only day you can worship at church would apply equally to everyone, but I doubt Jews or Muslims would feel they were being given "equal rights".

I only use it to counter people who are stupid enough to use it as a reason for denying polygamist marriage to others. I agree with you that it is a stupid phrase to use. It was also used to deny black/white marriages.

It is just that people STILL use it to deny polygamist marriages as if it is a good argument to use. I simply throw it right back at them...they then stammer that it is "different"...because, well, because it harms their position instead of helps it.


I would agree, but I don't know why polygamy (or incest, or bestiality or whatever) always makes it into gay marriage discussions. The idea seems to be that being in favor of lifting ONE restriction on marriage means you're in favor of lifting them all. Since a great number of people are in favor of straight marriage but not any other types, and since those are often the people making the polygamy/etc association with gay marriage, the idea of selective restriction seems like it should be an obvious one.

I can only say from my own reasoning, but I do it because if we are going to rewrite the laws, we might as well go the whole way. Beasility is stupid to bring up because it involves a non-human. There definately must be age limits still, and sound mind limits as well. All those are non-starters.

However, why should we jail people for wanting to have a three person union? Is there something evil about it? Something which will destroy the fabric of America? Basically, every reason for changing the laws to include homosexual marriage apply perfectly to polygamist marriage. Since they do, and we are discussing the expansion of rights, it makes perfect sense.

Obvious there must be limitations on the polygamist union size, it must remain unweildly. That is why I propose a union of no more than 5 people.
 

spittledip

Diamond Member
Apr 23, 2005
4,480
1
81
First of all... being gay IS NOT a choice. People are truly made that way. It happens.
Calling it a "choice" has been the true injustice of the ages.
The true injustice of the whole argument. Period!

You cannot expect one to change something built-in, hard coded. Impossible!
Homosexuality has always been around, always will be.
Simply because, there are people actually born that way. It is God's plan. Always has been.
The whole argument assumes homosexuality is some type of choice.
Any true homosexual knows better.

Now.. as to bible and religion and homosexuality, there "ARE" people that are "NOT" homosexual. Most actually!
However... two same sex heterosexuals "CAN" still have sex together.
Those people, the heterosexuals, should not cross that line. That is the un-natural.

So, again, homosexuals being homosexual is not the sin.
Heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts "is the sin".
And that alone is the true intended biblical issue.


If this whole argument were redirected to address heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts, then most everyone would agree that should not be.

I believe that is only, and exactly what the bible is addressing. Has always addressed.

So heterosexuals... JUST STOP IT, DAMN IT !!!!
You're giving true homosexuals a bad name.
Stop placing heterosexual short comings onto true homosexuals.

God is not addressing homosexuals behavior, God is addressing heterosexuals engaging in homosexual behavior !!!
And naturally, mankind being mankind, as God well knows, mankind will often get the issue totally screwed up, backwards and upside down.
So much so, that God had to send his one and only son down to earth just to kick ass.

Homosexuals have never been sinners. Jesus has not once said they were. God has not once said they were.
But heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts... THAT is the pisser.
God made homosexuals for his own, but unknown reason.
God made heterosexuals to reproduce the species. NOT to play around with other heterosexuals of the same sex...

And if my theory is in fact fact, then just consider for one moment the great injustice that has been placed onto the true innocent of society throughout the ages... the homosexual.
The fact homosexuals even exist, could in fact be God's test of heterosexuals with keeping of God's commandments. The homosexual is God's blessing. Just as are the tree's, the sky and the birds.
Think about it...
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Pedophilia and Sexual Sadism are not choices either. Whether or not someone was "born that way", most do not choose to have these type of paraphilias. Having a proclivity for doing something is never an excuse for doing it. This is not to say that the struggle would not be difficult. The difficulty of the struggle is not a measure for the rightness or wrongness of the thing one is struggling with.

Also, the distinction you are making about homosexual acts being wrong only if practiced by heteros is not in the Bible.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
I only use it to counter people who are stupid enough to use it as a reason for denying polygamist marriage to others. I agree with you that it is a stupid phrase to use. It was also used to deny black/white marriages.

It is just that people STILL use it to deny polygamist marriages as if it is a good argument to use. I simply throw it right back at them...they then stammer that it is "different"...because, well, because it harms their position instead of helps it.




I can only say from my own reasoning, but I do it because if we are going to rewrite the laws, we might as well go the whole way. Beasility is stupid to bring up because it involves a non-human. There definately must be age limits still, and sound mind limits as well. All those are non-starters.

However, why should we jail people for wanting to have a three person union? Is there something evil about it? Something which will destroy the fabric of America? Basically, every reason for changing the laws to include homosexual marriage apply perfectly to polygamist marriage. Since they do, and we are discussing the expansion of rights, it makes perfect sense.

Obvious there must be limitations on the polygamist union size, it must remain unweildly. That is why I propose a union of no more than 5 people.

I haven't thought about it enough to form a solid opinion, but I believe one of the objections to polygamy (or polyandry) is that it's actively harmful not to society as a whole but to the participants (at least to the many wives/many husbands). I'm not sure that's true, but at the very least it's a reason some people might legitimately object to polygamy but not homosexual marriage.

Overall though, I'm not a big fan of us or the government passing judgement on the personal lives of others unless there is a good reason for doing so (eg, harm to one of the participants).
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
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:D you dismiss the proof you are wrong because it shows you as wrong! :D
In reality, the remainder of my post which you ignored demonstrates (again) the validity of my point.

Admit it, the sexes are not equal in the eyes of the law. You are wrong. I posted a law which proves it.

Admit you are wrong, go ahead, you can do it. Not hard, I have done it about things, so can you.
Physician, heal thyself!

:rolleyes:
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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In reality...
:rolleyes:

INA: ACT 301 is reality, you pretend it does not exist in order to pretend you were not wrong.

Reality is this law women as more important than men. You claimed the law treats men and women equally. You are wrong.

No amount of you saying "prove the universe began" will get you out of this one.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I haven't thought about it enough to form a solid opinion, but I believe one of the objections to polygamy (or polyandry) is that it's actively harmful not to society as a whole but to the participants (at least to the many wives/many husbands). I'm not sure that's true, but at the very least it's a reason some people might legitimately object to polygamy but not homosexual marriage.

I think they are wrong, but the problem is that we really cannot do any studies on it as those involved will be jailed.

Overall though, I'm not a big fan of us or the government passing judgement on the personal lives of others unless there is a good reason for doing so (eg, harm to one of the participants).

Agreed, and in the case of Marriage the government should get out of the business altogether and only do civil uions. Leave marriage to religion, replace the legal form of marriage with civil union and be done with it once and for all.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
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INA: ACT 301 is reality, you pretend it does not exist in order to pretend you were not wrong.

Reality is this law women as more important than men. You claimed the law treats men and women equally. You are wrong.
That is not what I claimed. My claim is that men and women have equal rights under the law. Your citation does not deal with the rights of men or women, so it is irrelevant.

But by all means, keep fuckin' that chicken...
 

actuarial

Platinum Member
Jan 22, 2009
2,814
0
71
I only use it to counter people who are stupid enough to use it as a reason for denying polygamist marriage to others. I agree with you that it is a stupid phrase to use. It was also used to deny black/white marriages.

It is just that people STILL use it to deny polygamist marriages as if it is a good argument to use. I simply throw it right back at them...they then stammer that it is "different"...because, well, because it harms their position instead of helps it.

In the case of polygamy is does work, but the difference is subtle (and I don't think it's a good reason to deny someone from doing something, but it's still there).

As I showed prior, I can give you an example where one person has less rights than another due to their gender (so it's not equal rights based on gender). If you were to try to do the same thing with polygamy, you would find that they were not granted equal rights due to marital status.

At least in Canada, it is enshrined that all genders are treated equally under the law. There is no such distinction for marital status. Since you do not have a right to equal treatment under the law by marital status, you are not being denied rights. And the argument can even be made that it's simply based on contractual commitments, and it's a contract set up by the government (the civil portion of marriage at least). That's why the equal treatment does work for polygamy but not for gay marriage.

In summary, at least in Canada, if you can show that males and females are treated unequally under the law that is not allowed, but there is nothing guaranteeing that you will be treated equally based on marital status.

I can only say from my own reasoning, but I do it because if we are going to rewrite the laws, we might as well go the whole way. Beasility is stupid to bring up because it involves a non-human. There definately must be age limits still, and sound mind limits as well. All those are non-starters.

However, why should we jail people for wanting to have a three person union? Is there something evil about it? Something which will destroy the fabric of America? Basically, every reason for changing the laws to include homosexual marriage apply perfectly to polygamist marriage. Since they do, and we are discussing the expansion of rights, it makes perfect sense.

Obvious there must be limitations on the polygamist union size, it must remain unweildly. That is why I propose a union of no more than 5 people.

I disagree with this line of reasoning. You do not need to re-write marriage laws to allow gay marriage, you simply have to approve more marriages. You DO have to fundamentally rewrite all marriage laws to allow for polygamy. Should gays just have to wait to join a system that is perfectly capable of having them while people figure out how to accommodate a completely different set of people?

No, every reason for changing the laws to include homosexual marriage do not apply perfectly. As I've said before: current marriage laws discriminate against people based on their gender. How does that apply to polygamist marriages? The current marriage breakdown and taxation systems cannot handle polygamist marriages, but they can handle gay marriages. There's two arguments for each one that don't apply to the other.

I do not see why it is obvious that there should by limitations on union size if it is seen as a right people should have. Every argument you make to extend unions to 3 could and should be made to extend unions to 6. The fundamental issue is changing laws to accommodate more than one spouse. Going from 3 to 4, 4 to 5 and so on are easy once that's figured out. In my opinion, in our current environment 2 spouses would already be unwieldy, so if that's a legitimate reason to limit it there's no reason to make a change.

I'm fine with people fighting to legitimize polygamy, but tying it up with gay marriage is wrong. There are practical considerations with respect to poly marriage that simply do not exist with gay marriage. There is no reason that gays should continue to be denied rights on the back of some false equivalency that is typically only made by those who never plan on seeing either happen.

Do you also feel all those deeply religious people who are fighting for polygamy should also be fighting for gay marriage?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
That is not what I claimed. My claim is that men and women have equal rights under the law. Your citation does not deal with the rights of men or women, so it is irrelevant.

But by all means, keep fuckin' that chicken...

Yes it does, it covers the rights of a parent to have their child be a natural born citizen.

Face it, you are wrong. The law does not treat men and women differently. INA 301 gives women more rights then men have.

Are you simply incapable of saying you are wrong about something? I have posted that I was wrong a few times on this forum and recanted my posts. You, though, apparently are hubris incarnate and cannot do it.

Give it a shot, test the waters, admit you are wrong.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
In the case of polygamy is does work, but the difference is subtle (and I don't think it's a good reason to deny someone from doing something, but it's still there).

As I showed prior, I can give you an example where one person has less rights than another due to their gender (so it's not equal rights based on gender). If you were to try to do the same thing with polygamy, you would find that they were not granted equal rights due to marital status.

At least in Canada, it is enshrined that all genders are treated equally under the law. There is no such distinction for marital status. Since you do not have a right to equal treatment under the law by marital status, you are not being denied rights. And the argument can even be made that it's simply based on contractual commitments, and it's a contract set up by the government (the civil portion of marriage at least). That's why the equal treatment does work for polygamy but not for gay marriage.

In summary, at least in Canada, if you can show that males and females are treated unequally under the law that is not allowed, but there is nothing guaranteeing that you will be treated equally based on marital status.

Yeah, we will need to fix other things as this is done, I agree.



I disagree with this line of reasoning. You do not need to re-write marriage laws to allow gay marriage, you simply have to approve more marriages. You DO have to fundamentally rewrite all marriage laws to allow for polygamy. Should gays just have to wait to join a system that is perfectly capable of having them while people figure out how to accommodate a completely different set of people?

In my state, the laws say you must be of opposite sex and both human.

PA ST T. 23 Pa.C.S.A., Pt. II, Ch. 13, Refs & Annos
Part II. Marriage


§ 1102. Definitions
The following words and phrases when used in this part shall have the meanings given to them in this section unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:



“Department.” The Department of Health of the Commonwealth.


“Marriage.” A civil contract by which one man and one woman take each other for husband and wife.
http://************/78ab32j

The laws would have to be changed. Dang, that is a huge url, I will turn it into a tinyurl.


No, every reason for changing the laws to include homosexual marriage do not apply perfectly. As I've said before: current marriage laws discriminate against people based on their gender. How does that apply to polygamist marriages?

Current laws discriminate based on number. They are both discrimination. Why is one discrimination more important than another? Why is one groups rights more important than another groups rights?

The current marriage breakdown and taxation systems cannot handle polygamist marriages, but they can handle gay marriages. There's two arguments for each one that don't apply to the other.

Why can't it? Dependants are already part of the current tax system.


I do not see why it is obvious that there should by limitations on union size if it is seen as a right people should have. Every argument you make to extend unions to 3 could and should be made to extend unions to 6. The fundamental issue is changing laws to accommodate more than one spouse. Going from 3 to 4, 4 to 5 and so on are easy once that's figured out. In my opinion, in our current environment 2 spouses would already be unwieldy, so if that's a legitimate reason to limit it there's no reason to make a change.

It would be a trial run to work out the kinks in the system. It can be changed after that
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
541
126
Yes it does, it covers the rights of a parent to have their child be a natural born citizen.
The rights to citizenship of a child are not rights that belong to the mother or father. They are the rights of the child.

Face it, you are wrong. The law does not treat men and women differently. INA 301 gives women more rights then men have.
Nope.

Are you simply incapable of saying you are wrong about something? I have posted that I was wrong a few times on this forum and recanted my posts. You, though, apparently are hubris incarnate and cannot do it.

Give it a shot, test the waters, admit you are wrong.
Clearly you are projecting.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,531
2
81
ah...the church...


The Church taking a stance on homosexuality....isn't it ironic?

People that have their head up the ass of some religion should ask themselves - what business is it for the church to even have an opinion on where you like to stick your prick?

there are even some ass-backward places in this country where anal sex is a crime - with a man or a woman...
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,458
987
126
Then you would have the full support of the gay community, which only wants to grant rights to their specific group of people while not caring that other groups are actively jailed for wanting an alternative style of marriage.

Comparing homosexuality to a practice that has historically(and by an large still does) forces young women into bad/abusive/subservient relationships with men double their age or more is a STUPID FUCKING COMPARISON. And only dumbass religious conservatives and/or polygamists make that stupid argument.

Oh and while gay marriage will likely be decided on by a higher standard than the rational basis test, polygamy can NEVER be tested with anything but the rationale basis test. And the rationale to ban it is the history of polygamy.

Gay people don't choose to be gay. Polygamists choose to be Polygamists and it just so happens there is a very bad and sick history behind the practice of polygamy. And don't try to dispute that.
 
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Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,458
987
126
ah...the church...


The Church taking a stance on homosexuality....isn't it ironic?

People that have their head up the ass of some religion should ask themselves - what business is it for the church to even have an opinion on where you like to stick your prick?

there are even some ass-backward places in this country where anal sex is a crime - with a man or a woman...

Incorrect. You can legally have anal and oral sex in every state in the country. SCotUS ruled sodomy bans unconstitutional in 2003(Lawrence v. Texas). Intimate consensual sexual conduct is a protected right/liberty under the 14th amendment.
 
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