Gas Thread:8-22-07 Gas stations owners file lawsuit alleging price fixing by Saudi owned Refiners in U.S.

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: conjur
Oil prices are rising only because of the fear of world instability that's been injected due to this administration's warmongering and policy of regime change for any country deemed appropriate by the PNAC.

I could believe this but at some point this oversupply will see an effect of dropping prices.
Oil companies will only sit on so much oil before they decided to stop buying. We have seen a pretty steady increase in oil prices over the past 3-5 years with no end in site. This suggests to me they obviously dont have enough supply to stop buying yet.

 

[conjur]

Why should they? They're making huge profits on this. Why not keep it up? What have they to lose? People aren't really slowing down their purchase of oil and China's flush with cash as their economy is really moving.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: conjur
Oil prices are rising only because of the fear of world instability that's been injected due to this administration's warmongering and policy of regime change for any country deemed appropriate by the PNAC.

I could believe this but at some point this oversupply will see an effect of dropping prices.
Oil companies will only sit on so much oil before they decided to stop buying. We have seen a pretty steady increase in oil prices over the past 3-5 years with no end in site. This suggests to me they obviously dont have enough supply to stop buying yet.

Very odd behavior. You've been shown to be wrong in black & white over and over and yet still defend the Oil Barons. Only reasonable explanation has to be that you directly profit and benefit from the record profits by Exxon and the rest of the Bush Regime Oil Baron buddies.

What part of record profits and oversupply of Oil do you not understand???

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: conjur
Why should they? They're making huge profits on this. Why not keep it up? What have they to lose? People aren't really slowing down their purchase of oil and China's flush with cash as their economy is really moving.

The same reason why Intel doesnt make 500 million processors when they only need 50 million per qtr, then sit on them for a rainy day. It costs money to keep the supply and you run the risk of the market falling out with a large inventory of high priced supply.

You think if the oil market fell out tomorrow and companies have huge quantities of excess supply they would be able to sell it at a profit?

I think that answer is no.

But you touched on the demand part of it rather well, which fits more into reality imo.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: conjur
Oil prices are rising only because of the fear of world instability that's been injected due to this administration's warmongering and policy of regime change for any country deemed appropriate by the PNAC.

I could believe this but at some point this oversupply will see an effect of dropping prices.
Oil companies will only sit on so much oil before they decided to stop buying. We have seen a pretty steady increase in oil prices over the past 3-5 years with no end in site. This suggests to me they obviously dont have enough supply to stop buying yet.

Very odd behavior. You've been shown to be wrong in black & white over and over and yet still defend the Oil Barons. Only reasonable explanation has to be that you directly profit and benefit from the record profits by Exxon and the rest of the Bush Regime Oil Baron buddies.

What part of record profits and oversupply of Oil do you not understand???

I understand it perfectly, it is fools like you who think we can somehow mandate a govt regulation that will magically manipulate the markets and give us cheap gas.

Stop buying the gas and the price will drop.

 

[crimson117]

Guys, guys, guys. Keep in mind Exxon had a VERY tough 2005. I mean, their profits were only up 42.6% over 2004:

http://dailybuzz.net/exxon/exxon_profits_up_42percent.gif

source: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/snapshots/496.html

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: crimson117
Guys, guys, guys. Keep in mind Exxon had a VERY tough 2005. I mean, their profits were only up 42.6% over 2004:

http://dailybuzz.net/exxon/exxon_profits_up_42percent.gif

source: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/snapshots/496.html

Do people like you know where he added profit comes from? I know you don't. It sure isn't from profits on a gallon of gasoline where the oil companies make about 10 cents.

This issue of profits is related to the per barrel price of oil. It is the EXPLORATION side of the oil business that is providing most of the profits. This is the division of an oil company that is charged with finding, securing, drilling, and getting the oil out of the ground and into the market. The break even price for most oil companies is about $22-25 a barrel. If the price is cheaper they can't even justify taking the oil out of the ground. Because of this when prices were in the $12 a barrel price range oil companies simply sat on their reserves. Now bring into play $50-60-70 a barrel oil and all of a sudden you have HUGE profits, especially when considering the division of the company providing these profits made NONE just s few short years ago.

Even if an oil company is capable of using the exact same oil they pump out of the ground all the time (they don't) that does not change the price. They would simply charge their refining division the $70 barrel price for the raw inputs. It is at this point they make only ~$.10 per gallon for refining and bringing gas to the market. They can't and won't simply lower the price because the commodity market values it at a given level.

I realize I just wasted my time because no one who wants to be mad at someone in specific for the high price of gas is going to listen or even believe me.

 

[crimson117]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: crimson117
Guys, guys, guys. Keep in mind Exxon had a VERY tough 2005. I mean, their profits were only up 42.6% over 2004:

http://dailybuzz.net/exxon/exxon_profits_up_42percent.gif

source: http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/snapshots/496.html

Do people like you know where he added profit comes from? I know you don't. It sure isn't from profits on a gallon of gasoline where the oil companies make about 10 cents.

This issue of profits is related to the per barrel price of oil. It is the EXPLORATION side of the oil business that is providing most of the profits. This is the division of an oil company that is charged with finding, securing, drilling, and getting the oil out of the ground and into the market. The break even price for most oil companies is about $22-25 a barrel. If the price is cheaper they can't even justify taking the oil out of the ground. Because of this when prices were in the $12 a barrel price range oil companies simply sat on their reserves. Now bring into play $50-60-70 a barrel oil and all of a sudden you have HUGE profits, especially when considering the division of the company providing these profits made NONE just s few short years ago.

Even if an oil company is capable of using the exact same oil they pump out of the ground all the time (they don't) that does not change the price. They would simply charge their refining division the $70 barrel price for the raw inputs. It is at this point they make only ~$.10 per gallon for refining and bringing gas to the market. They can't and won't simply lower the price because the commodity market values it at a given level.

I realize I just wasted my time because no one who wants to be mad at someone in specific for the high price of gas is going to listen or even believe me.

I appreciate your insight because you're right, I don't understand all that goes into the 42.6% more profit.

But if they're drilling all this oil where they'd break even at $25 a barrel, why are they selling Gasoline to us (eventually) as if oil cost $70 a barrel?

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Stop buying the gas and the price will drop.

If only it were that easy. I still have to drive to work, and while my car is ok on gas, I don't have money to go buy a hybrid or more efficient vehicle.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: crimson117
But if they're drilling all this oil where they'd break even at $25 a barrel, why are they selling Gasoline to us (eventually) as if oil cost $70 a barrel?

The ~$25 COST of getting the oil out of the ground is just that. The price per barrel of oil is set by the commodity market it is traded in so the price per barrel reflects production output, demand, along with speculation based on my extrinsic forces. If oil is traded at $70 then that IS THE PRICE of the input in making gasoline and other items. It doesn't mean squat that it only cost $25 to produce. When oil was TRADING at $12 a barrel and oil companies were making NO PROFIT on their reserves why where you not compensating them because they couldn't make money on THEIR oil when you were enjoying UNDERVALUED oil and gasoline at $.70 a gallon??? It works both ways.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Ronstang
They would simply charge their refining division the $70 barrel price for the raw inputs.

I realize I just wasted my time because no one is going to listen or even believe me.

You actually believe they would charge themselves $70 barrel???

You can sya that with a straight face???

 

[crimson117]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: crimson117
But if they're drilling all this oil where they'd break even at $25 a barrel, why are they selling Gasoline to us (eventually) as if oil cost $70 a barrel?

The ~$25 COST of getting the oil out of the ground is just that. The price per barrel of oil is set by the commodity market it is traded in so the price per barrel reflects production output, demand, along with speculation based on my extrinsic forces. If oil is traded at $70 then that IS THE PRICE of the input in making gasoline and other items. It doesn't mean squat that it only cost $25 to produce. When oil was TRADING at $12 a barrel and oil companies were making NO PROFIT on their reserves why where you not compensating them because they couldn't make money on THEIR oil when you were enjoying UNDERVALUED oil and gasoline at $.70 a gallon??? It works both ways.

Rather than take a loss why didn't they just sit and not sell anything til the price came back up?

And does exxon put all its oil through the commodities market or does it sell refined gasoline direct to customers at gas stations? With all the profits, couldn't they lower their barrel price a bit?

Just tryin to understand how this works...

And to a layperson, believe me "exxon profits up, oil prices up" just sounds awfully fishy no matter how many commodities markets it goes through. It feels like we're struggling and paying more and more just so they can pad their profits.


Tell me, assuming we buy the same gallons a week as we always do, how would them dropping their profits a bit to reduce their prices at the pump not cause our weekly gas costs to decrease as well?

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang
They would simply charge their refining division the $70 barrel price for the raw inputs.

I realize I just wasted my time because no one is going to listen or even believe me.

You actually believe they would charge themselves $70 barrel???

You can sya that with a straight face???

You obvioulsy KNOW NOTHING about business and internal charges do you? Divisions operate like separate businesses. Exploration is going to get the profits of selling their oil at $70 and the Refining division is going to pay this price for the inputs.....even if it is an internal transfer and on paper only. I can't have a conversation with an idiot because there is NO POINT.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: crimson117
Rather than take a loss why didn't they just sit and not sell anything til the price came back up?

And does exxon put all its oil through the commodities market or does it sell refined gasoline direct to customers at gas stations? With all the profits, couldn't they lower their barrel price a bit?

Just tryin to understand how this works...

And to a layperson, believe me "exxon profits up, oil prices up" just sounds awfully fishy no matter how many commodities markets it goes through. It feels like we're struggling and paying more and more just so they can pad their profits.


Tell me, assuming we buy the same gallons a week as we always do, how would them dropping their profits a bit to reduce their prices at the pump not cause our weekly gas costs to decrease as well?

They didn't technically take a loss. They didn't pump their own oil. They simply treated oil reserves like an investment for the future. The refining side of the business simply bought the oil from any source that was willing to sell it at $12. Countries like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Venezuela have a very very low cost of production and were still making money at $12.

Gasoline is a commodity that is traded too and that is why different types of speculations and fears (refinery shutdowns) cause different effects on the price of gas...separate from the oil market. Do you realize that BASE gasoline is ALL THE SAME. The basic chemical formula for gasoline is the same for all companies and thus what comes out of the refinery is basically all the same. What makes Exxon's gas is it's ADDITIVE package for things like emmisions etc. You could be getting Shell refined gas at an Exxon station, but will have the Exxon additives in it to make it Exxon'a gas.

The oil business is much more complicated than it appears on the surface and if people would spend more time educating themselves they would spend less time BLAMING and industry that delivers you an AMAZING product at a FAIR price if you consider all it takes to get if from the dinosaur to YOU.

It is the trading of oil on the market that makes the price so high. OPEC nations have cut back on their production to drive prices up also and add into that speculaiton about political and environmental (weather) fears and you start to understand the high price of oil.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Ronstang
They would simply charge their refining division the $70 barrel price for the raw inputs.

I realize I just wasted my time because no one is going to listen or even believe me.

You actually believe they would charge themselves $70 barrel???

You can sya that with a straight face???

You obvioulsy KNOW NOTHING about business and internal charges do you? Divisions operate like separate businesses. Exploration is going to get the profits of selling their oil at $70 and the Refining division is going to pay this price for the inputs.....even if it is an internal transfer and on paper only. I can't have a conversation with an idiot because there is NO POINT.

Simple, show me the proof they are paying $70 a barrel.

 

[BriGy86]

marked for later, and this should be stickied

 

[jlbenedict]

Gotta love $3.00+ per gallon of regular unleaded..
Just in time for hurricane season.. should make for some more bull$hit reasons to further gouge Americans..
I still predict $4.00 / gallon by the Labor Day holiday

 

[dmcowen674]

It is really obvious that the Oil Barons watch this thread.

I've been saying show me the stations out of gas and ta daaaaaaaaa, today stations runs out of gas all over the U.S. overnight.

Of course despite the fact that there is a crap load of Oil available and no refineries down.

The Ethanol situation is a complete fabrication by the Bushies.

Congratulations

Today they are blaming the truckers.

I hope truckers don't take this laying down.

Let's see how wussy American truckers are or do they have a set of balls against the Bush Regime.

4-21-2006 US fuel crunch worsens

Virginia - Dozens of gasoline stations from Virginia to Massachusetts ran short of fuel on Friday as suppliers struggled with a transition to a new anti-smog gasoline blend using corn-based ethanol as an additive.

The disruptions, caused in part by a lack of trucks to move ethanol to supply terminals

"The situation here is chaotic," said Mike O'Connor, president of the Virginia Petroleum Jobbers Association, which represents gas stations in the state.

Fuel marketers said there were reports of gasoline stations running out of fuel in areas of Virginia, Maryland, around Washington D.C., in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and parts of Massachusetts.

"There are a handful of outages being reported across the region, but they are temporary," said Catherine Rossi, a spokeswoman for AAA Mid-Atlantic.

"The problem is waiting for the trucks to get to the stations."

The U.S. government had warned in recent weeks that gasoline supplies could be disrupted

"Anywhere there is reformulated gasoline and MTBE there will be a problem," said Jeff Lenard, director of communications at the National Association of Convenience Stores.

A federal waiver allowing the sale of conventional gasoline, instead of the anti-smog blend, would make it easier for fuel suppliers to sell gasoline without the ethanol additive.

"We're patiently waiting to see if the state will make a formal request on our behalf," said VPJA's O'Connor.

"We're hoping this situation will be short-lived," said Rolf Hanson, executive director of the Pennsylvania Petroleum Association.

"We think it is unlikely the government will grant waivers for a transitional issue like this one."
==============================================
There you have it in black & white.

The Oil Barons and the Government blaming truckers.

Truckers are you wusses or will you stand up to this blasphemy???

 

[jlmadyson]

75

Crude-oil prices reached a new record of $75 a barrel Friday amid concern about Iran's nuclear ambitions and declining U.S. gasoline stocks.

U.S. pump prices also kept rising, with the average price of a gallon of unleaded regular gasoline at $2.855, up 3 cents from a day earlier and more than 60 cents higher than a year ago, according to AAA's daily fuel gauge report.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I think there's a little apples and oranges action going on in this thread.

Exxon isn't just an oil exploration/extraction company. They do have refininery capacity and retail outlets. BUT . . . Big Oil Exxon sells it's crude to anyone willing to pay market price for it. Exxon charges its refineries the SAME price as they charge other refineries give or take. Naturally, the inflated price of oil as led to huge profits for Big Oil.

Now for refiners someone was claiming a $0.10 profit and that's pure BS. When they pay more for oil they charge more for gasoline but they don't just pass along crude costs. Refiners collect more profit as well.

CA breakdown


DOE

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: conjur
Barlett gets busted

Originally posted by: conjur
Oil prices are rising only because of the fear of world instability that's been injected due to this administration's warmongering and policy of regime change for any country deemed appropriate by the PNAC.

You're merely pointing out things that I argued here back in 2002 (feel free to search).

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
It is really obvious that the Oil Barons watch this thread.

Have you suggested to Dave that he seek professional help for his paranoia?

 

[conjur]

Youch <--- Beverly Hills, CA (from Yahoo)

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think there's a little apples and oranges action going on in this thread.

Exxon isn't just an oil exploration/extraction company. They do have refininery capacity and retail outlets. BUT . . . Big Oil Exxon sells it's crude to anyone willing to pay market price for it. Exxon charges its refineries the SAME price as they charge other refineries give or take. Naturally, the inflated price of oil as led to huge profits for Big Oil.

Now for refiners someone was claiming a $0.10 profit and that's pure BS. When they pay more for oil they charge more for gasoline but they don't just pass along crude costs. Refiners collect more profit as well.

CA breakdown


DOE

Please explain that to Dave. He doesn't believe me. I tried to explain why profits are way up over the last few years but he won't hear any of it. He still thinks that there is NO way Exxon would charge it's own refineries the MARKET price of oil.....he thinks they would discount it for THEMSELVES. Look a few posts up.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: conjur
Youch <--- Beverly Hills, CA (from Yahoo)

$4.04

They're all rich anyway. Doesn't bother them a bit just like the resident Republicans.

 

[dmcowen674]

4-21-2006 Bush Seemingly Resigned to High Gas Prices

SAN JOSE, Calif. - As oil prices hit a record, drivers worried about $3-a-gallon gas and politicians feared the impact on elections, President Bush on Friday acknowledged the pain but seemed resigned to being able to do little about it.

"I know the folks here are suffering at the gas pump, rising gasoline prices is like taking a ? is like a tax, particularly on the working people and the small-business people."

One reason for a weekend trip with a lot of downtime in beautiful places became clear even before Bush boarded Air Force One to leave Washington. Crew were seen loading two shiny mountain bikes ? one a red-white-and-blue Trek adorned with the presidential seal and "United States of America." With stays scheduled in picturesque Napa Valley and the Palm Springs area, the bikes weren't likely to remain clean for long.

"Tomorrow I'm going to be riding my bike in Napa Valley. I can't wait," Bush told his Cisco audience.