What's this dead pixel thing I keep hearing about? Is it a legit concern? If so? Who has a good return policy reguarding said pixels?
Originally posted by: Ronin
Originally posted by: Malladine
And how much was that thing? $600? I'm just unwilling to believe there is no ghosting. So i'll take your ballhooey and raise you shenanigans
Oh and what's the deal with widescreen? Isn't everything sorta, wide?
Call shens all you want, but a decent LCD with a good refresh rate (even 16ms is acceptable) will not ghost. My 2005FPW didn't ghost, and neither do my 2405FPWs, and I spend an exhaustive amount of time on it (gaming and otherwise).
Note that many people got the 2005FPW for a little over 300, and some of us got 2405FPW's for a little over 400.
LCD streaking/ghosting is highly subjective. While your eyes may not see any streaking/ghosting, my eyes certainly do.
Stengah, your eyes will answer your questions better than 100 opinions in this thread. People on both sides of the LCD/CRT debate will present 'facts' which may or may not apply to you.
Good luck!
Motion blur will always exist on LCDs and there's no arguing it until they make the crystals go at the speed of light. I consider it 'not bad' on my 17" TN 12ms (Tr+Tf). I notice it, but it doesn't bother me. Much like the alignment lines on an AG CRT.
Ronin
Diamond Member
Originally posted by: Mojoed
Originally posted by: Ronin
Originally posted by: Malladine
And how much was that thing? $600? I'm just unwilling to believe there is no ghosting. So i'll take your ballhooey and raise you shenanigans
Oh and what's the deal with widescreen? Isn't everything sorta, wide?
Call shens all you want, but a decent LCD with a good refresh rate (even 16ms is acceptable) will not ghost. My 2005FPW didn't ghost, and neither do my 2405FPWs, and I spend an exhaustive amount of time on it (gaming and otherwise).
Note that many people got the 2005FPW for a little over 300, and some of us got 2405FPW's for a little over 400.
LCD streaking/ghosting is highly subjective. While your eyes may not see any streaking/ghosting, my eyes certainly do.
Stengah, your eyes will answer your questions better than 100 opinions in this thread. People on both sides of the LCD/CRT debate will present 'facts' which may or may not apply to you.
Good luck!
Considering I have pilot eyesight (which also means I have the ability to see greater than the conventional 30fps that most humans do), I'd say I've got a pretty good handle on it. You sound more like someone that's just looking for an argument.
I've seen ghosting on LCDs (I've had several, literally), so I'm well aware of what to look for. The 2405 doesn't exhibit it.
Elfear
Diamond Member
- May 30, 2004
- 7,163
- 819
- 126
My buddy has a 19" Samsung (sorry I can't remember the model off the top of my head) with a 25ms response time and I can definetely see ghosting on it when he plays a fast-paced FPS. I've looked very carefully on my 2005fpw and don't notice any motion blur at all. That's not to say its not there but it's faint enough that my eyes don't pick it up.
To people who can't see the "ghosting" (motion blur correct term): http://www.benchmarkhq.ru/files/pixperan_english.zip
Do the F6 streaky pictures test and tell me if you see any trace of smearing on that one. Then switch to the scrolling text test and tell me you can see it perfectly with no smearing. Even CRTs would exhibit it at that speed.
Doesn't the 2405FPW have an S-IPS panel with no overdrive? I have a fast TN panel and I can see it clear as day. Maybe I just have super-deluxe enterprise edition pilot vision.
Do the F6 streaky pictures test and tell me if you see any trace of smearing on that one. Then switch to the scrolling text test and tell me you can see it perfectly with no smearing. Even CRTs would exhibit it at that speed.
Doesn't the 2405FPW have an S-IPS panel with no overdrive? I have a fast TN panel and I can see it clear as day. Maybe I just have super-deluxe enterprise edition pilot vision.
nitromullet
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2004
- 9,031
- 36
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Originally posted by: entropy1982
What about LCDs makes games "look nicer" as people say? I mean i have the space for a big monitor (currently I have a mitsubishi 22'' crt) so space isn't much of an issue.... sure a smaller one is always better but i wouldnt really use the space in the back of the monitor on my desk anyway so does it actually look nicer? and I can't understand why/how... anyone care to explain? thanks
yes i realize i must be the 1 billionth person asking this question... so feel free to not answer but please don't flame
Games don't necessarily look nicer on an LCD, but I buy something like a monitor as a whole item for all my needs, not just gaming. If gaming was the absolute only thing I ever did on my PC, I had the space, and I could get one in widescreen for a decent price, I would probably get a CRT. It will not ever ghost and if it is high quality the colors will be superior to those of an LCD. That being said, games look fantastic on a Dell 2005FPW, plus it is widescreen. Additionally, there is no flicker whatsoever when surfing, posting, gaming, whatever... Plus, text is much, much more crisp than on any CRT. There is simply no comparison, once you get used to an LCD all CRT's look fuzzy and you can see the constant refresh... If you can't physically see it, you can "feel" it. To me, it starts to feel like someone is tapping me in the shoulder repeatedly. I know, I used a CRT happily for many years, and could do so for many more, but switching to an LCD is probably one of the best things I ever did aside from investing in a nice (Aeron) office chair for my comfort.
Originally posted by: Ronin
Originally posted by: Mojoed
Originally posted by: Ronin
Originally posted by: Malladine
And how much was that thing? $600? I'm just unwilling to believe there is no ghosting. So i'll take your ballhooey and raise you shenanigans
Oh and what's the deal with widescreen? Isn't everything sorta, wide?
Call shens all you want, but a decent LCD with a good refresh rate (even 16ms is acceptable) will not ghost. My 2005FPW didn't ghost, and neither do my 2405FPWs, and I spend an exhaustive amount of time on it (gaming and otherwise).
Note that many people got the 2005FPW for a little over 300, and some of us got 2405FPW's for a little over 400.
LCD streaking/ghosting is highly subjective. While your eyes may not see any streaking/ghosting, my eyes certainly do.
Stengah, your eyes will answer your questions better than 100 opinions in this thread. People on both sides of the LCD/CRT debate will present 'facts' which may or may not apply to you.
Good luck!
Considering I have pilot eyesight (which also means I have the ability to see greater than the conventional 30fps that most humans do), I'd say I've got a pretty good handle on it. You sound more like someone that's just looking for an argument.
I've seen ghosting on LCDs (I've had several, literally), so I'm well aware of what to look for. The 2405 doesn't exhibit it.
I'm not looking for an argument, I'm stating fact.
Everyone has slightly different eyesight.Congrats on your pilot eyesight! I believe what you said; I believe you know what to look for, I believe that you believe the 2405 doesn't exhibit ghosting. I'd say I've also got a pretty good handle on my own eyesight.
However your eyesight doesn't apply to me. I do see ghosting/streaking on my friends 2405, (He's got two) and to my eyes, my 24" A7217A CRT is much faster as far as ghosting/streaking goes.
It's not all subjective. Look at it on an oscilloscope like THG or Xbit labs does. It's scientifically provable that a CRT is faster.
We agree on this, I think you misunderstood me. I've known forever that CRT's are faster than LCD's. My point was that some people can't discern those differences.
Originally posted by: nitromullet
Originally posted by: entropy1982
What about LCDs makes games "look nicer" as people say? I mean i have the space for a big monitor (currently I have a mitsubishi 22'' crt) so space isn't much of an issue.... sure a smaller one is always better but i wouldnt really use the space in the back of the monitor on my desk anyway so does it actually look nicer? and I can't understand why/how... anyone care to explain? thanks
yes i realize i must be the 1 billionth person asking this question... so feel free to not answer but please don't flame
Games don't necessarily look nicer on an LCD, but I buy something like a monitor as a whole item for all my needs, not just gaming. If gaming was the absolute only thing I ever did on my PC, I had the space, and I could get one in widescreen for a decent price, I would probably get a CRT. It will not ever ghost and if it is high quality the colors will be superior to those of an LCD. That being said, games look fantastic on a Dell 2005FPW, plus it is widescreen. Additionally, there is no flicker whatsoever when surfing, posting, gaming, whatever... Plus, text is much, much more crisp than on any CRT. There is simply no comparison, once you get used to an LCD all CRT's look fuzzy and you can see the constant refresh... If you can't physically see it, you can "feel" it. To me, it starts to feel like someone is tapping me in the shoulder repeatedly. I know, I used a CRT happily for many years, and could do so for many more, but switching to an LCD is probably one of the best things I ever did aside from investing in a nice (Aeron) office chair for my comfort.
I see thanks for the informative answer. However.... i am VERY bothered by flicker (when I come over and see people with 60hz refresh i go nuts) but when i put mine and i always do to 85hz i see none whatsoever.... am I just not seeing it because I am so used to it?
Sonikku
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2005
- 15,884
- 4,885
- 136
I can play WoW at 1920x1200 with good framerates. I can only play BF2 at about 1280x960 with good framerates. However, I can at least play Half Life 2 in 1600x1200 with good framerates. I'm just glad I'm not limited to a LCD screen. They're limited to one resolution and that's that. Everything else must be scaled to it's native resolution, often with ugly results in fast paced games. I also don't care for dead pixels. Seeing as how most developers do not consider dead pixels to be a flaw, they will not return an LCD screen unless it has so many dead pixels, often 5 or more. Ghosting is another issue that is difficult to pinpoint. I've seen LCD's with slightly higher response times that have less ghosting then other screens with lower response times. I don't know what the hell was with that. In any case, for serious gaming I'm glad to have my 24" Sony FW900. It can display any resolution from 640x480 at 200htz to 2304x1440 at 80htz natively with no scaling. All for $300. But that's just my take. I understand if having a slimmer monitor is a much higher priority then picture quality/no ghosting/versatile resolutions ect. I just don't fall into that category.
After picking up a Viewsonic VX924, supposedly using one of the faster(est?) LCD panels, I can certainly say there was still blurring compared to a CRT. It was *easily* noticable with any game with moving textures. The easiest (and what I play the most) is in FPS games. I tested out Counterstrike: Source, and any time I would move, the textures on the walls or ground would blur considerably. That's not to say there wasn't blurring in general, but that was the fastest way to check for blurring that I could ultilize myself, in a real world application. While better than any other LCD I've tried, it's still not acceptable.
What's sad is what the VX924 had to give up to achieve those "fast" speeds. The color reproduction was pretty horrible, producing washed out colors no matter what settings I tried. Also, the overdrive aftereffect of dots in panning scenes was very noticble in general. Movies (including HDTV) also looked horrible compared to my trusty Sony G400 CRT.
Needless to say, it was returned quite fast to CompUSA. LCD technology has a few years to go before it truly surpasses CRTs for gaming and movies. If you like static images or looking at plain text, then sure, grab one, but for any serious gamer or avid movie watcher, CRTs are still the way to go...if you can find a quality one.
What's sad is what the VX924 had to give up to achieve those "fast" speeds. The color reproduction was pretty horrible, producing washed out colors no matter what settings I tried. Also, the overdrive aftereffect of dots in panning scenes was very noticble in general. Movies (including HDTV) also looked horrible compared to my trusty Sony G400 CRT.
Needless to say, it was returned quite fast to CompUSA. LCD technology has a few years to go before it truly surpasses CRTs for gaming and movies. If you like static images or looking at plain text, then sure, grab one, but for any serious gamer or avid movie watcher, CRTs are still the way to go...if you can find a quality one.
after my current monitor died I just picked up an LCD thinking that I'd give the whole thing a whirl... THERE IS NO GHOSTING. Check this model out: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824179014
It's $330 and is amazing.
check this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=27&threadid=1627664&enterthread=y
and this one:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1678224&enterthread=y
and finally Anands article:
http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2428
the 915N from Samsung is a great product too, but no DVI mean lower quality. Go for the cheaper, better LCD.
It's $330 and is amazing.
check this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=27&threadid=1627664&enterthread=y
and this one:
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=31&threadid=1678224&enterthread=y
and finally Anands article:
http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2428
the 915N from Samsung is a great product too, but no DVI mean lower quality. Go for the cheaper, better LCD.
nitromullet
Diamond Member
- Jan 7, 2004
- 9,031
- 36
- 91
Obvioulsy, 60Hz is just too slow, and 80Hz is much more preferable, since very few people will actually see the flicker. The sensation I am talking about is more of a feel then a visual sense. Basically, with a CRT you're looking directly into a very quickly flashing light (sometimes for hours). This is what makes your eyes tired, and if you've never used an LCD extensively that's just the way it is. With an LCD, this doesn't happen... (and you don't miss it). However, when you go back to a CRT, you notice how much it wears on your eyes. Personally, I think this is the reason why most people that switch to an LCD are very happy with it and wouldn't want to go back to a CRT.
Will your LCD ghost? Probably... I haven't seen one that doesn't... IMO, the Dell 2005FPW doesn't ghost enough for it to be an issue, and the pros outweight the cons. Some people will disagree... That's just the way it is.
Ronin
Diamond Member
Mostly from Dell, to be honest. From the 17" up (for the past 4 years), with the most recent being newer 2001FPs, the 2005FPW, and of course the 2405FPW.
No one is faulting that CRTs are faster. That's basically common sense, but in the same breath, a decent LCD will blow the acuity away on a CRT.
Mojoed: Your friend's 2405. Is it using the Analog or DVI input? That, in itself, will make a tremendous difference, and could very well explain what you were seeing.
Are you talking ghosting (using the proper term) or motion blur? I'm afraid this has gone to semantics. VGA/DVI won't affect motion blur and ghosting is basically a non-issue unless you have huge cables or lots of interference.
Very simple reason for that, actually Duvie. DVD's are stored at a resolution of 720X480 internally (remember, there is more horizontal data than vertical, and it gets 'stretched' to fit the widescreen (hence the often mentioned "3:2 pulldown ratio"). The methodology of how DVD is displayed is unimportant (although interlacing artifacts IMO also look like crap on LCD's).
What primarily makes DVD's look like crap on LCD's is that DVD's resolution is much lower than the native resolution of any LCD monitor. Because it's being scaled to fit the screen (and quite a bit, on most screens), LCD's high resolution is not conducive to displaying DVD nicely at all.
Download a few HD-DVD resolution clips (720p or 1080i) and you will be shocked at just how gorgeous video can look on an LCD (IMO better than any CRT). Apple's HD Gallery has some of good HD clips to try out. **EDIT** Note that Apple's new dumbed-down HD gallery has some flaws. Make sure to look at the resolution next to the link when you download, because many "720p" images are actually lower resolution. Also, for some reason, they seem to have pulled all of the 1080i clips (some of which, IMO looked the best). The famous "step into liquid" 720p and 1080i clips are nowhere to be found, which were among the best looking ones of all. Still, this can give you a bit of an idea of HD-DVD's potential...
Damn right there's a problem if you don't use DVI output on LCD! LCD is a digital interface, using a VGA cable gives you an image that is nowhere nearly as sharp as DVI. When you use a VGA cable, you're taking a digital ouput, converting it to analog, then back to digital to be displayed by the screen. You don't get true 1:1 pixel mapping that DVI does.
That's odd, because fine and extremely precise detail is what LCDs excel at.
But that explains it. Analog from an LCD is rubbish, giving you the worst of both LCDs and CRTs. If DVI is available always use it.
Thanks for the feedback guys
In fact I'm really concerned about ghosting because I play fast paced games, Q3 for exemple, you can't go faster ...
I've tested a 25ms response LCD and I could definitly see the "motion blur" ...
However it seems there is no ghosting at ALL on the new 4/3 ms LCDs, like the Viewsonic VX924, but the colors were terrible...
Isn't there something in between ? I don't really care for the price, because I plan to keep this screen for several years... I'm looking for quality
so, fast responce (8ms at least) AND quality, does it exist ? I'm not looking for ultra sharp image but ... it was simply horrible on the VX924...
Thx
In fact I'm really concerned about ghosting because I play fast paced games, Q3 for exemple, you can't go faster ...
I've tested a 25ms response LCD and I could definitly see the "motion blur" ...
However it seems there is no ghosting at ALL on the new 4/3 ms LCDs, like the Viewsonic VX924, but the colors were terrible...
Isn't there something in between ? I don't really care for the price, because I plan to keep this screen for several years... I'm looking for quality
so, fast responce (8ms at least) AND quality, does it exist ? I'm not looking for ultra sharp image but ... it was simply horrible on the VX924...
Thx
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