Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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crownjules

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2005
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Not quite. The Frey's hold the best crossing of the Green Fork, and the only one north of the Ruby Ford. Robb wanted to head north to take it back from the ironmen (and retreat from the Riverlands). He really had no choice but to pay whatever price Walder wanted in order to cross.

The main reason he kisses up and apologizes to Walder Frey is because he has an army of thousands that he needs back fighting for him. They all leave once Robb marries Jeyne/Talisa and they comprise a huge portion of his army. And of course that's further compounded by the Karstark's leaving once Robb takes Rickon's head.

That being said, I love the casting for Walder Frey. He comes off as the perfect crotchety, skeevy old man. Him rattling off his daughter's and granddaughter's names was just as I imagined it when I read it.
 

TheAdvocate

Platinum Member
Mar 7, 2005
2,561
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Robb is a 15 year old and he fucks up just like any 15 year old would. Walder Frey is an old bitter man and he saw an opportunity. There's a lot of this going on and some of it even predates the books. During the battle of the Trident and the fight for Robert's crown there were lots of people who suddenly switched sides at the end once they realized that the Baratheons were winning. What made Robert a good king was that he forgave them.

Yeah, this is a really solid point. This type of thing happens quite a bit in battle, however, I don't think there was precedent for this type of outright murderous plot.

Also, they had done the bread and salt ceremony, which they didnt set up well for the non-readers. In the books, Robb thinks he is safe because the custom is once that is performed, no harm can be done to a guest. he thinks he is just going to have to endure a bunch of bitchiness from Walder Frey and have to make numerous apologies.

I dont think they delivered that well. And I was disappointed to see my wife (hasnt read the books) miss the Rains of Castamere cue. Went right over her head. So despite their best efforts to set that up, apparently it didnt work on everyone.

Having Jeyne/Talisia at the wedding was a really good change - a shock moment for even the book reader crowd. I gasped. It was so brutal and the timing caught me by surprise.

As I said earlier, I would have loved to see the Great Jon freak and go Mike Tyson/Berserker mode after Small Jon was beheaded - that would have made the whole thing even more insane and disturbing.
 

Emos

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2000
1,989
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0
Yeah I think that
Joeff's wedding
will happen within the first half of season 4. I wonder if the big episode 9 for next season will be
finding out that Tywin Lannister does not in fact shit gold?
 

TheAdvocate

Platinum Member
Mar 7, 2005
2,561
7
81
BTW, wasnt one of the plot point differences between Jeyne and Talisia, that (in the books) Jeyne, being from the Crag (Lannister loyalists), and her family might have been in on part/all of the plot that culminated in the Red Wedding? I remember reading some speculation that the Lannisters set the whole thing up by having Jeyne intentionally get knocked up by Robb, which they knew would piss Walder off and likely end the Stark/Frey alliance... That's what I remember anyhow.

The only hole in that theory is that they couldnt force Robb to marry Jeyne. However, they knew he was Ned's son, and would likely do the "right" thing.
 
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Emos

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2000
1,989
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Yeah, this is a really solid point. This type of thing happens quite a bit in battle, however, I don't think there was precedent for this type of outright murderous plot.

Also, they had done the bread and salt ceremony, which they didnt set up well for the non-readers. In the books, Robb thinks he is safe because the custom is once that is performed, no harm can be done to a guest. he thinks he is just going to have to endure a bunch of bitchiness from Walder Frey and have to make numerous apologies.

I dont think they delivered that well. And I was disappointed to see my wife (hasnt read the books) miss the Rains of Castamere cue. Went right over her head. So despite their best efforts to set that up, apparently it didnt work on everyone.

Having Jeyne/Talisia at the wedding was a really good change - a shock moment for even the book reader crowd. I gasped. It was so brutal and the timing caught me by surprise.

As I said earlier, I would have loved to see the Great Jon freak and go Mike Tyson/Berserker mode after Small Jon was beheaded - that would have made the whole thing even more insane and disturbing.

Yeah those were some nuances that can easily fly over the heads of those who didn't read the books. Killing a guest after the bread and salt ceremony is one of the biggest taboos in all of Westeros, the Frey House will see a perilous decline in social standing after breaking that taboo (even if it was secretly instigated by House Lannister).

Same with the Rains of Castamere, it sent a yellow line up my spine the moment they locked the doors and started playing the song.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,462
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I think it was something about them brewing a potion billed as a fertility potion that in fact was moon tea. Something about them making sure she didn't have any children. When she was pardoned they were worried about a heir and I think they forbade her from marrying for 2 years.

And come on...anyone who read the books must have realized it was going to end badly for her once she showed up to the wedding. Especially after whole I'm pregnant scene. There was tons of foreshadowing. Too much in fact. Maybe they needed it for the non book crowd though.
 

crownjules

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2005
4,858
0
76
Yeah those were some nuances that can easily fly over the heads of those who didn't read the books. Killing a guest after the bread and salt ceremony is one of the biggest taboos in all of Westeros, the Frey House will see a perilous decline in social standing after breaking that taboo (even if it was secretly instigated by House Lannister).

Same with the Rains of Castamere, it sent a yellow line up my spine the moment they locked the doors and started playing the song.

Those are points that, while nice to know, aren't crucial. So they're bonus tidbits that the book readers will recognize but aren't integral for non-readers to know. Otherwise, you'd have to have an entire scene earlier where they play the Rains of Castamere and explain that its a song about how Tywin Lannister erradicated House Reyne after they rebelled against the Lannisters. A lot of setup for just a small payoff.


edit VVVV: Yeah she does. And the wiki says Tyrion and Tywin both whistle the tune at various times and Thoros sings a couple lines. So I guess perceptive enough watchers would have realized it was the same song.
 
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bearxor

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2001
6,609
2
81
Yeah I think that
Joeff's wedding
will happen within the first half of season 4. I wonder if the big episode 9 for next season will be
finding out that Tywin Lannister does not in fact shit gold?

This is how I'm thinking it will go down.
Joff's wedding within the first three episodes. Tyrion gets to spend his time in the dungeon. Springs free in episode 9.
 

MikeyLSU

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2005
2,747
0
71
Yeah I think that
Joeff's wedding
will happen within the first half of season 4. I wonder if the big episode 9 for next season will be
finding out that Tywin Lannister does not in fact shit gold?

that is what I was thinking
 

TheAdvocate

Platinum Member
Mar 7, 2005
2,561
7
81
This is how I'm thinking it will go down.
Joff's wedding within the first three episodes. Tyrion gets to spend his time in the dungeon. Springs free in episode 9.

Yep, I agree. Would follow their typical season story arc quite well.

randomrougue said:
And come on...anyone who read the books must have realized it was going to end badly for her once she showed up to the wedding. Especially after whole I'm pregnant scene.

I was fairly certain it would not end well for her, but I didnt really expect things to kick off with one of the Freys/Dreadfort men casually walking up to her and serial killer style eviscerating her belly like he was cutting a roast for dinner. I gasped out loud. It was shocking in its brutality.

Also, FWIW, Great Jon was captured, not killed, in the books. There was a small chance in my mind that Talisia might not be killed. Though not as much as if she had followed the Jeyne Westerling storyline more closely.
 

Emos

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2000
1,989
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Yep, I agree. Would follow their typical season story arc quite well.



I was fairly certain it would not end well for her, but I didnt really expect things to kick off with one of the Freys/Dreadfort men casually walking up to her and serial killer style eviscerating her belly like he was cutting a roast for dinner. I gasped out loud. It was shocking in its brutality.

Yeah that was a deviation from the book that practically made me sit up in bed and cry "HOLY SHIT!!!!!1!" I figured that she would be killed off but it was in your face shocking.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
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The main reason he kisses up and apologizes to Walder Frey is because he has an army of thousands that he needs back fighting for him. They all leave once Robb marries Jeyne/Talisa and they comprise a huge portion of his army. And of course that's further compounded by the Karstark's leaving once Robb takes Rickon's head.

I haven't seen the season yet (don't have HBO), but I'm thinking that might have been a change made in the series. He was never planning on making a run at Casterly Rock in the books. He was looking to retake Moat Cailin and the north. Not that it matters too much in either direction, given the end result.
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,571
463
126
Also, they had done the bread and salt ceremony, which they didnt set up well for the non-readers. In the books, Robb thinks he is safe because the custom is once that is performed, no harm can be done to a guest. he thinks he is just going to have to endure a bunch of bitchiness from Walder Frey and have to make numerous apologies.

I dont think they delivered that well. And I was disappointed to see my wife (hasnt read the books) miss the Rains of Castamere cue. Went right over her head. So despite their best efforts to set that up, apparently it didnt work on everyone.

Yeah, as a result of the Frey's flouting of an age old tradition/rite now no one really can feel safe staying at a stranger's keep anymore as they could in the past. It really messes with the old system and the Frey's have set themselves up for trouble.

I thought they set up the "Rains of Castamere" cue in episode 8 where Cersei tells the story to Margaery
 

Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
16,665
21
81
I don't see it happening. I have always felt that Martin was never going to let Tyrion die, and it got quite annoying because reading the books
you could feel he was the one invincible character, no matter what he goes through or ends up in he comes out a-okay
.

I will be pleasantly surprised if I am wrong, but I just don't see it.

I actually like his character more than any other, except for maybe the father, Tywin, and Sandor, the giant who is afraid of fire. The other actors I'm curious of finding out how they turn out is Sansa, Jamie Lannister, and Cersi Lannister but they grow more irrelevant to the story each passing episode. Obviously the Lannisters are growing tired of their fathers control, so I imagine that is where next season will go over.

Deanerys is hell bent on taking back her throne, and the current theme in this series is, if you want it that badly you'll just end up dead. So I'm actually not trying to get too attached to her now because even without reading the book, I know how it will turn out. You can't have a single conquering victor because that would be too easy at this point.

As for Jon Snow - man, that guy seems to have to leech off everyone to survive. He had no independence up until now, which actually excites me a little. Maybe his character will grow next season, or end up dead like the rest of the heroes. I imagine that is what
the feast of crows book is all about.

It's a perfect series for HBO as when inevitably the actors start asking for more money, you can just kill them off like Soap Operas.
 
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