G.E. to Share Jet Technology With China in New Joint Venture

[Darwin333]

china orders 100 more rusian engines bad news for j-10

Shenyang Liming WS-10


The Chinese aren't stupid enough to use their home grown engines in their fighters, and at the present only Pakistan is stupid enough to order J-10/J-11 (Israeli Lavi copy, possibly with Israeli help, and Italian electronics).

IMHO, at the present Chinese avionic is not a threat to Western or Russian avionic, and I'm sure that the US government would spank GE if GE give China its top engines & electronic designs.

That is my point, they have already started developing their production abilities, now they just need to work out the kinks and perfect it. What do you suppose the fastest way of doing that is?

 

[H54]

Because they have to get the hardware designs and manufacturing processes correct first?

Sort of like what it appears they are doing right now.

That makes no sense.

 

[halik]

Agreed. As the WS10A shows, the ChiComms have the ability to exactly copy anything. Once you have automated, computer-controlled laser comparators, the process is technically quite easy, down to fractions of a millimeter. What is not apparent from dismantling an example, even with sophisticated metallurgical science, are the various manufacturing processes required to give each part the required blend of toughness, hardness, and strength. These manufacturing processes are the knowledge they will receive from GE. Probably take them a decade to master them and maybe another decade to expand that to a military-grade engine, but it never pays to underestimate the Chinese as a people, especially considering the resources they can bring to bear. I'd be willing to bet that in twenty-five years (not that I'll live that long) the ChiComms will be manufacturing military grade engines as good as, if not better than, anything in the world. I wouldn't bet against it happening in ten years.

I was under the impression that the single crystal fan blades and things of that sort is where most of the IP is at. GE would be completely retarded to hand it over.

 

[H54]

I was under the impression that the single crystal fan blades and things of that sort is where most of the IP is at. GE would be completely retarded to hand it over.

That is exactly what I'm saying. Not to mention FADEC software amongst other things.

 

[werepossum]

I was under the impression that the single crystal fan blades and things of that sort is where most of the IP is at. GE would be completely retarded to hand it over.

Probably true with respect to Western competitors, but remember that before Clinton removed practically every technology transfer barrier (including moving authority from State to Commerce) Chinese industry was fundamentally at 1950s American and Russian levels. They can greatly benefit from a good deal of manufacturing technology that Western competitors would already possess. For the rest, I'm sure GE intends to hold back just enough technological process knowledge to make this venture profitable for the long haul. Unfortunately it seldom works like that. Western companies tend to think the Chinese companies will be dependent on their knowledge, but the Western companies also end up dependent on the Chinese markets, with the additional carrot of using low-cost, high-quality Chinese manufacturing. It's the camel's nose parable, and it seems the Chinese are generally better at this than are Western companies. And in the event that GE can play this successfully, there are other Western (and Russian) companies with similar knowledge. China needs to get this technological knowledge from only one of them. In the end, there's usually one that says "If we don't sell them this, someone else will, so let's take the short term gain."

 

[hal2kilo]

GE is not going to share the creme de la creme. GE is doing this because it means they will buy more GE engines whether they are on an Airbus or Boeing aircraft. Boeing does the same thing with aircraft production. They give a piece of the production pie to a partner. The partner gets jobs and tech, Beoing gets aircraft orders.

That's because the arrogant pigs think they are dealing with primatives. When China and other lesser countries that we are trading with, in search of the almighty dollar, put all the pieces of the puzzle together, we will wake up not just one day, but soon, that we have no technological advantage, thus ecomomic advantage over them.

 

[poncherelli2]

As a pilot, I can say I wouldn't fly an airliner made in China. One of the big problems with airlines around the world is use of counterfeit parts that come from China. They are reverse engineered parts that are far inferior to OEM parts. I won't name any names but some of the major US airlines have outsourced their heavy maintenance to offshore maintenance shops to cut costs. The problem is that these shops aren't under FAA jurisdiction, they don't use FAA certified maintenance personnel, and some use counterfeit parts as often as they can. The airlines get away with it because they are large multi-nationals that have more lobbying money than we can imagine.

This isn't even remotely true

Airlines are not multi-nationals, with limited exceptions they entirely US-based (with minimal staff at major foreign locations) and are legally required to be majority US-owned. For the better part of the last decade the US Majors had next to no money and several went through Chapter 11. They don't have more lobbying money than I can imagine.

Most US and European airlines outsource heavy airframe maintenance to South America and Asia and all MROs performing work for these airlines are FAA and EASA certified, with certified mechanics, and appropriate licenses for the fleet types. Foreign MROs are subject to the same standards and audit procedures (albeit, maybe less frequently) as domestic MROs.

PMA (non-OEM) airframe parts aren't terribly uncommon for low-level consumables and are used by many airlines. PMA parts in engines are a controversial issue in the industry, but the only US airlines to adopt engine PMAs was United in the CFM56-3 engines, and the PMAs were manufactured by Pratt & Whitney (CFMI is the OEM). United has since parked its entire 737 classic fleet.

Airbus also now performs final assembly on a small number of A320s in China. These aircraft are all destined for Chinese airlines for now, but don't say you'll never fly on a Chinese aircraft unless you plan on checking the Airbus production logs for your aircraft's msn every time you step on an A320 in the future (there is no designation or serial number difference for the Chinese assemblies)

 

[Zebo]

Does not surprise me. We'll end up selling everything to China to continue to be able to pay for trinkets from there, amass debt and ignore our problems. Congress okays deals to continue treasury buying and corp profits rolling in. Capital does not care about borders or human rights in fact it works against their primary objective, profit and power.

USA is bascially at the stage of a guy who lost his job and is hawking all his shit on ebay.

 

[iGas]

Probably true with respect to Western competitors, but remember that before Clinton removed practically every technology transfer barrier (including moving authority from State to Commerce) Chinese industry was fundamentally at 1950s American and Russian levels. They can greatly benefit from a good deal of manufacturing technology that Western competitors would already possess. For the rest, I'm sure GE intends to hold back just enough technological process knowledge to make this venture profitable for the long haul. Unfortunately it seldom works like that. Western companies tend to think the Chinese companies will be dependent on their knowledge, but the Western companies also end up dependent on the Chinese markets, with the additional carrot of using low-cost, high-quality Chinese manufacturing. It's the camel's nose parable, and it seems the Chinese are generally better at this than are Western companies. And in the event that GE can play this successfully, there are other Western (and Russian) companies with similar knowledge. China needs to get this technological knowledge from only one of them. In the end, there's usually one that says "If we don't sell them this, someone else will, so let's take the short term gain."

It is possible that China could buy the best engine tech from on of the Western country, but it is highly unlikely.

The Russian has indicated that they aren't going to sell their top secret engine tech (SU-27~35 & T50) to China in the dispute of 2009~2010 over that of the J-10/J-11 & J-20 engine. And, the French said no to Chinese when they wanted to buy the Typhoon engine. And, I don't think the Brits or American going to sell out as well.

So far the only sell out is the Israeli. They gave the Chinese the Lavi/F-16 design that became the J-10 (J-11 is a stolen copy of the SU-27).

 

[iGas]

That's because the arrogant pigs think they are dealing with primatives. When China and other lesser countries that we are trading with, in search of the almighty dollar, put all the pieces of the puzzle together, we will wake up not just one day, but soon, that we have no technological advantage, thus ecomomic advantage over them.

China is going to over take the US soon or later in economic advantage, because of their large population and economic reform.

China is a large trading partner with Australia & Canada for resources as well as South America. India is not exactly friendly with China but they are a trading partner that give them an additional access to 1.2 billions potential customers, 0.6 billions in SE Asia, and who know how many more in North Western Asia, the Baltic, Russia, and Eastern Europe. China also expanding their influent into Africa continent for the past 20 years as well.

 

[iGas]

Does not surprise me. We'll end up selling everything to China to continue to be able to pay for trinkets from there, amass debt and ignore our problems. Congress okays deals to continue treasury buying and corp profits rolling in. Capital does not care about borders or human rights in fact it works against their primary objective, profit and power.

USA is bascially at the stage of a guy who lost his job and is hawking all his shit on ebay.

Absolutely correct, because the US is no better place to be than anywhere else. Such as invaded Iraq on false pretense, and the police are protected behind a blue shield so that they are free to abuse its citizens.

 

[H54]

This isn't even remotely true

Airlines are not multi-nationals, with limited exceptions they entirely US-based (with minimal staff at major foreign locations) and are legally required to be majority US-owned. For the better part of the last decade the US Majors had next to no money and several went through Chapter 11. They don't have more lobbying money than I can imagine.

A multinational is a large corporation with operations and subsidiaries in several countries. All of the legacy and major US airlines consistently make the fortune 500 and all of the legacy airlines make the fortune 100.

You are confusing the requirements for an operating certificate with multinational. All US airlines are required to be "domestically" owned. However, Virgin America recently found a way to circumvent that problem. Being a domestic airline in the use entitles a company to one of the more important freedoms of the air; cabotage.

There is having no money and literally having no money. A large corporation will always have money for certain things; Lobbying, executive over-compensation, etc. US Airways has been in deep trouble since the early 90s with a brief respite until 9/11. Every single quarter for years after 9/11, all of the legacy carriers reported millions and billions in losses every single quarter yet they continued to operate. At the time, the largest of these companies had a market cap of 15 billion. There are numerous organizations not to mention the US economy have a vested interest in the success or at least continued operation of the airlines.


For your reading pleasure. The Freedoms of the air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air

Most US and European airlines outsource heavy airframe maintenance to South America and Asia and all MROs performing work for these airlines are FAA and EASA certified, with certified mechanics, and appropriate licenses for the fleet types. Foreign MROs are subject to the same standards and audit procedures (albeit, maybe less frequently) as domestic MROs.

PMA (non-OEM) airframe parts aren't terribly uncommon for low-level consumables and are used by many airlines. PMA parts in engines are a controversial issue in the industry, but the only US airlines to adopt engine PMAs was United in the CFM56-3 engines, and the PMAs were manufactured by Pratt & Whitney (CFMI is the OEM). United has since parked its entire 737 classic fleet.

Fake parts
http://www.spotcounterfeits.co.uk/fake-aeroplane-parts-and-illegal-
counterfeiting.html

Fake parts and the military
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/04/fake-parts-in-a/

Airbus also now performs final assembly on a small number of A320s in China. These aircraft are all destined for Chinese airlines for now, but don't say you'll never fly on a Chinese aircraft unless you plan on checking the Airbus production logs for your aircraft's msn every time you step on an A320 in the future (there is no designation or serial number difference for the Chinese assemblies)

Easy solution, don't fly on a Chinese airline. I don't fly for one and I won't ride on most of them.

 

[5150Joker]

Some simple hypothetical numbers:

US population: ~312 million
Chinese population: 1+ billion

Percentage of college educated (25-64 yrs old) Americans with associates or higher degrees: ~40%
Percentage of college educated (25-64 yrs old) Americans with a bachelors or higher in science: ~10%

Percentage of college educated (25-64 yrs old) Chinese with an associated equivalent: I couldn't find any hard numbers so lets just guess and say: ~15-20%
Percentage of college educated (25-64 yrs old) Chinese with a bachelors or higher in science: Lets guess at ~5%.


Simple numbers breakdown:
US college grads with science degrees: 31.2 million
Chinese college grads with science degrees: 50 million

They would already have the numbers advantage with hypothetically half the number of grads with science degrees.

So those that are dismissing China's ability to quickly copy and reverse engineer are in for a rude awakening. There are increasing amount of patriotic US educated Chinese that go back home and compete against us.

Here's an article I just read about Chinese grads views about the US:

The antipathy that college students - including those who gain their education abroad - have toward democracy is matched by their views of America. In the 2009 Lowy Institute China Poll, America came out on top in terms of the best place to study, according to Chinese students. Yet, the perception of the American threat was most pronounced among those with a university education (both within China and/or abroad): 86 percent of people with tertiary degrees agreed that the United States would seek to "restrain China's growing influence," compared with 58 percent of people whose highest level of education was junior secondary school.

....

Moreover, Chinese college graduates are now extremely patriotic. They feel justifiably proud of China's recent achievements and see themselves as representing China's success. Chinese graduates go to American universities to attain respected degrees, but retain the expectation that their nation will soon retake its rightful place as a great power.

We're basically educating our enemies while neglecting our own citizens ability to attain a higher level education and find a job afterward.


US grads source: http://completionagenda.collegeboar...es/reports_pdf/Progress_Executive_Summary.pdf

 

[Fenixgoon]

Yeah, and then China cuts them both out and just copies the tech that the original companies gave. Just look at what happened with HSR locomotive manufacturing.

10000thed. i don't understand how people can put up with that kinda shit.

 

[Trianon]

Speaking of people who are willing to sell their country out for a Dollar – GE had excellent earnings and I got my daily "WHUCK?!?" moment this morning when Obama named Jeff Immelt the head of his Economic Advisor Panel, replacing Paul Volcker who quit when he realized this country is totally being controlled by Souless Corporate Interests who are embodied by none other than – Jeff Immelt.

Yes, it’s the same Jeff Immelt who just signed a deal to transfer America’s Avionics Technology to China’s State-owned Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China who (and I mean who, not Hu, althogh it’s easy to see how this is confusing) intends to go into direct competition with Boeing (BA), who is not only a top US military supplier but our nation’s largest manufacturing exporter BY A MILE – so much so that Durable Goods have to be measured ex-Aircraft to smooth out their shipping cycle.

Boeing sells $68Bn worth of airplanes per year and has over $300Bn worth of orders for the 787 backlogged. The company directly employs 157,000 employees, mainly in the USA and, as they build their planes here and tend to use American parts, they in turn employ roughly 1M more people, accounting for close to 10% of our nation’s total manufacturing employees. As I mentioned when the deal first broke – the technology GE is turning over to China represents 100 years worth of advances in American avionics and, just because GE legally got their hands on the patent rights over the years, that does not give them the right to put a bow around them and hand them to Hu (not "who," this time I literally mean Hu).

There’s a word for what GE is doing. It’s right at the tip of my tongue... Oh yes, TREASON!!! Oran’s Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "…[a]…citizen’s actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." Well, the Supreme Court just decided that our Corporations are citizens and have the right to give politicians unlimited bribes contributions as they exercise their right to free speech. Why then do we not hold them to a citizen’s standards when they clearly take actions that are against the best interests of the United States of America?

I wonder if a Paulson-like immunity from prosecution comes with Immelt’s job as head of the President’s Economic Council and I also wonder if Hu benefits from having their main man firmly inserted at a desk in the White House? Surely the timing of the appointment to coincide with China’s visit is not a coincidence. As an M&A consultant, I have seen this happen a million times – a company (or country, in this case) is having trouble paying its bills and its balance sheet winds up in breach of loan covenants which prompts a visit from the president of the bank (in this case the PBOC) who wrangles some additional concessions and guarantees and, in extreme cases, the Bank asks that one of their boys be given a seat on the board so they can "keep tabs" on your progress.



That scenario is bad enough when your bank is just a bank but when you borrow money from a competitor and put yourself in that position, you may as well pack it in because you essentially just spilled blood in the shark tank. It’s only a matter of time before all your thrashing around, trying to stay afloat, turns into a selachimorpha version of a piñata game.

Is this the beginning of a long and glorious partnership with our Chinese Masters or simply step 2 in the dismantling of America as Immelt presides over the transfer of the rest of America’s Intellectual Property to China so we can cut out the middle (class) man as our Global Corporations expedite their operational shifts more and more overseas? With only two years until the next election – there is the danger that the American people will wake up and demand action so, as happened during the final days of the Soviet empire – we can expect big moves like GE’s partnership with China to come fast and furious over the next 24 months.

What are we doing about it? Well, as I told you yesterday, we’re BUYING GE, as well as JPM and, if you can find any more loathsome Corporate bastards who have top-level access to the White House and a pocketful of Congressmen and Judges – we’ll invest in them too because the first step towards working your way up the ladder in a Corporate Kleptocracy is to realize you are living in a Corporate Kleptocracy. Once you accept that – the rest is obvious…

from here:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/247789-freaky-friday-alpha-2-says-cliff-ahead