G.E. to Share Jet Technology With China in New Joint Venture

[H54]

It took the Japanese how long?

Japan is much different than China politically, socially, and culturally.

 

[H54]

H54, that's mostly wishful thinking. GE is going to get played just like every other western firm got played. Not that GE would mind - they'll still make more money than they would otherwise. There is a funny story I read a while back (can't find a link, sorry) about VW opening up their Chinese joint venture in the 90s. At the time, they best they could do was copy trivial electronics like cd players and VW thought they would be safe because car engineering and manufacturing is so much more involved, but they were quickly proven wrong.

More timely, you should read about what's been happening in the chinese wind power industry in the last few years: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/business/global/15chinawind.html?pagewanted=all

I understand what you're saying and read the article. It was a good read. You are right but I maintain that when it comes to some things, advanced tech, China cannot manufacture them as of yet with out making a few changes that will take time.

It really is unethical how China is using its unique position in the world to "compete." The international community could and should stand together to pressure China to play more fairly but the world likes cheap goods and corporations love cheap manufacturing.

 

[VirtualLarry]

As a pilot, I can say I wouldn't fly an airliner made in China. One of the big problems with airlines around the world is use of counterfeit parts that come from China. They are reverse engineered parts that are far inferior to OEM parts. I won't name any names but some of the major US airlines have outsourced their heavy maintenance to offshore maintenance shops to cut costs. The problem is that these shops aren't under FAA jurisdiction, they don't use FAA certified maintenance personnel, and some use counterfeit parts as often as they can. The airlines get away with it because they are large multi-nationals that have more lobbying money than we can imagine.

Now THAT'S scary!

 

[Narmer]

Japan is much different than China politically, socially, and culturally.

I understand what you're saying and read the article. It was a good read. You are right but I maintain that when it comes to some things, advanced tech, China cannot manufacture them as of yet with out making a few changes that will take time.

It really is unethical how China is using its unique position in the world to "compete." The international community could and should stand together to pressure China to play more fairly but the world likes cheap goods and corporations love cheap manufacturing.

I don't mean to be rude but it seems you are delusional. The Chinese are stealing, copying, and forcing foreign companies into joint-ventures that will ultimately undermine said companies long-term growth. They are learning the tech as quickly as possible and "re-innovating" them. Story after story, article after article, and lawsuit after lawsuit shows this. The Chinese are manufacturing these products products with stolen IP TODAY.

 

[H54]

I don't mean to be rude but it seems you are delusional. The Chinese are stealing, copying, and forcing foreign companies into joint-ventures that will ultimately undermine said companies long-term growth. They are learning the tech as quickly as possible and "re-innovating" them. Story after story, article after article, and lawsuit after lawsuit shows this. The Chinese are manufacturing these products products with stolen IP TODAY.

No offense taken but I feel I clearly stated several times that there are certain things they cannot reverse engineer and build as of yet for a variety of different reasons. I even cited an example previously in the thread.


I also said that if/when China starts pushing the technological envelope rather than "drafting" they will probably have more respect for the concept of intellectual property.

 

[Narmer]

No offense taken but I feel I clearly stated several times that there are certain things they cannot reverse engineer and build as of yet for a variety of different reasons. I even cited an example previously in the thread.


I also said that if/when China starts pushing the technological envelope rather than "drafting" they will probably have more respect for the concept of intellectual property.

Who cares about respect when they are stealing IP and jobs? Also, why on earth would they need to reverse-engineer anything when the companies are handing them the technical know-how voluntarily? As the NYT article states, the Chinese are violating WTO rules and as the WSJ article states, they are renegging on agreements. It's plainly obvious that short-term gains on the part of the Western companies and Chinese aggression is playing a major part undermining the growth of Western economies (at least when it comes to manufacturing and exports).

 

[H54]

Who cares about respect when they are stealing IP and jobs?

re-read my position on IP.

Also, why on earth would they need to reverse-engineer anything when the companies are handing them the technical know-how voluntarily?

Because it is highly unlikely that GE is giving them anywhere close to everything. There are proprietary items that won't be shared hence the attempt at reverse engineering. It makes absolutely no sense for GE to spend millions in R&D and certification only to hand the whole kit and kaboodle over to someone else. Things like the software or the exact composition of the alloy used on some of the parts of the engines, or...

As the NYT article states, the Chinese are violating WTO rules and as the WSJ article states, they are renegging on agreements. It's plainly obvious that short-term gains on the part of the Western companies and Chinese aggression is playing a major part undermining the growth of Western economies (at least when it comes to manufacturing and exports).

I don't think anyone is disputing you on this.

 

[bfdd]

My response.



Highly specialized, high-tech things cannot be reversed engineered by China because they don't have the technical know how as of yet. Check out some of the copies of Russian aircraft they've made. Current-gen engine tech? Forget about it. I highly doubt the possess the manufacturering process in its entirety to produce the engines not to mention the proprietary software used to drive them. The software is just as important.

one just has to look at the precision tools that come out of there, OMFG they are terrible. I think this one dude had a 1" micrometer that was off by like 3 thousands of an inch.

 

[H54]

one just has to look at the precision tools that come out of there, OMFG they are terrible. I think this one dude had a 1" micrometer that was off by like 3 thousands of an inch.

lol that is pretty crappy! Even consumer level hand tools that come from there are terrible. 17mm usually isn't 17mm and thats why I buy Craftsman or other quality American tools.

 

[Pulsar]

For ANYONE who wants to argue that won't allow the Chinese to fast-track development of their own engines, you just don't get it. You need to go read how they essentially stole the entire high-speed train technology.

The contract was simple. The first trains where designed and the components manufactured in the host countries: Japan, Germany, France, etc. They were assembled into trains under those companies' supervision in China. Now China had assembly facilities and expertise.

The next revision stipulated that the trains were designed and the major components manufactured in China under those same countries' supervision. They now had manufacturing and assembly experience.

The 3rd revision stipulated they be designed, manufactured, and assembled in China, all under those companies' supervision. China now had all the technology to do it themselves.... and *SHOCK*.... that's exactly what they did.

Within 15 years, they'll be putting out motors that directly compete with the best we have, and 3/4 or 1/2 the price. Quote me on it.

 

[Martin]

I understand what you're saying and read the article. It was a good read. You are right but I maintain that when it comes to some things, advanced tech, China cannot manufacture them as of yet with out making a few changes that will take time.

It really is unethical how China is using its unique position in the world to "compete." The international community could and should stand together to pressure China to play more fairly but the world likes cheap goods and corporations love cheap manufacturing.

"Yet" might not matter to Chinese leaders that like a longer-term outlook. It took about 20-25 years for Airbus to start making decent planes and (AFAIK) they developed their own tech, so if Chinese firms can get a "technology transfer" and do it in 12-15 years, they'll will still be happy and come out ahead.

At the end of the day, all firms doing business there face a clear choice: either give up your R&D and get a small slice of the market, or don't get any slice of the (growing and increasingly significant) market at all and see your competitors get that slice instead. Companies are caught between a rock and a hard place and western governments don't care, so they bite the bullet and train their replacements. Hell, even if they somehow get slapped by the WTO, that still gives them years of leeway to do most of the damage.

What's really happened is that China has figured out how to exploit our rules to their advantage and they're not going to stop any time soon.

 

[Karl Agathon]

Thank goodness for SSBNs

 

[trenchfoot]

lol that is pretty crappy! Even consumer level hand tools that come from there are terrible. 17mm usually isn't 17mm and thats why I buy Craftsman or other quality American tools.

I am a toolmaker by trade, and yes, the 1" Chinese micrometers that sell for under $10 are really bad. But they're very useful for measuring how thick a slice of ham you want in your sandwich or how much your nostrils flare at the sight and feel of the craftsmanship of these "precision" tools.

 

[werepossum]

Considering the performance of both parties in recent decades, I'll be happy if we just don't fund the project for them. Obama and GE are very close, and Republicans have been on board many times with subsidizing new foreign factories that very quickly lead to closed down American factories. We could well end up funding the whole damned factory making the Chinese airliners (and engines) as a shining example of bipartisanship.

 

[iGas]

Yeah, and then China cuts them both out and just copies the tech that the original companies gave. Just look at what happened with HSR locomotive manufacturing.

Possible, however it has been known that China produce inferior "copied" jet engines a.k.a Russian fighter jet engines.

I think it is good that GE is working with China to improve engine sales, and I'm sure that the CEO of GE is well aware of China dubious track record.

 

[iGas]

I don't mean to be rude but it seems you are delusional. The Chinese are stealing, copying, and forcing foreign companies into joint-ventures that will ultimately undermine said companies long-term growth. They are learning the tech as quickly as possible and "re-innovating" them. Story after story, article after article, and lawsuit after lawsuit shows this. The Chinese are manufacturing these products products with stolen IP TODAY.

And the funny thing is that the American & Europeans keeps on buying Chinese stolen goods.

 

[trenchfoot]

"Yet" might not matter to Chinese leaders that like a longer-term outlook. It took about 20-25 years for Airbus to start making decent planes and (AFAIK) they developed their own tech, so if Chinese firms can get a "technology transfer" and do it in 12-15 years, they'll will still be happy and come out ahead.

At the end of the day, all firms doing business there face a clear choice: either give up your R&D and get a small slice of the market, or don't get any slice of the (growing and increasingly significant) market at all and see your competitors get that slice instead. Companies are caught between a rock and a hard place and western governments don't care, so they bite the bullet and train their replacements. Hell, even if they somehow get slapped by the WTO, that still gives them years of leeway to do most of the damage.

What's really happened is that China has figured out how to exploit our rules to their advantage and they're not going to stop any time soon.

Most definetely, the Chinese outlook is a broader longer term one as compared to the west. Their history and lore proves that beyond doubt.

The only question is, once they achieve parity or in their minds, superiority, what will they do with it.

 

[Darwin333]

re-read my position on IP.



Because it is highly unlikely that GE is giving them anywhere close to everything. There are proprietary items that won't be shared hence the attempt at reverse engineering. It makes absolutely no sense for GE to spend millions in R&D and certification only to hand the whole kit and kaboodle over to someone else. Things like the software or the exact composition of the alloy used on some of the parts of the engines, or...

Why would they even want to spend the time and resources reverse engineering the software when they can just steal it? They have gotten pretty good at bribing people on the inside for stuff like that and it is much cheaper and easier then reverse engineering it.

 

[Darwin333]

Possible, however it has been known that China produce inferior "copied" jet engines a.k.a Russian fighter jet engines.

Which means they are well on their way to having the ability to produce competing products.

I think it is good that GE is working with China to improve engine sales, and I'm sure that the CEO of GE is well aware of China dubious track record.

More Chinese jobs and helping them develop the ability to compete with a company like GE, thats a good thing? The CEO of GE is thinking only about the next few years while the Chinese are thinking about the next few decades.

Even if it takes them 5 years to get to that level, if they shaved 20 years off of what it otherwise would have taken them by doing it in a legal/legit fashion it is a huge win for them and a huge fail for us.

 

[halik]

Yeah, and then China cuts them both out and just copies the tech that the original companies gave. Just look at what happened with HSR locomotive manufacturing.

Thirded. Learning by copying ftl.

 

[iGas]

Which means they are well on their way to having the ability to produce competing products.



More Chinese jobs and helping them develop the ability to compete with a company like GE, thats a good thing? The CEO of GE is thinking only about the next few years while the Chinese are thinking about the next few decades.

Even if it takes them 5 years to get to that level, if they shaved 20 years off of what it otherwise would have taken them by doing it in a legal/legit fashion it is a huge win for them and a huge fail for us.

china orders 100 more rusian engines bad news for j-10

Shenyang Liming WS-10

February 14, 2009: .Chinese engineers thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, was meant for the Chinese J-10 fighter, which entered service two years ago. But the Chinese Air Force was not satisfied with the reliability or performance of the WS10A, and have ordered another hundred AL31Fs from Russia, in order to continue building J-10s.

China only publicly announced the J-10s status in January, 2007. What was not mentioned in the press releases was that only one J-10 squadron was stationed where it might encounter Taiwanese F-16s or Mirage jet fighters. That squadron is sitting at a base just out of range (560 kilometers) of the F-16s and Mirages. The Taiwanese believe that their pilots are much better trained than their Chinese counterparts. Moreover, the word out of China is that the J-10 is a maintenance nightmare, and that the Chinese are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers...

On 2 April 2009, the director of AVIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) Lin Zuoming (林左&#40483😉, stated that there were problems with the quality control procedures on the WS-10A production line, meaning the Taihang turbofan was still of unsatisfactory quality. He said that solving these problems would be a key step.[7] The Chinese engines have been lasting 30 hours at a time vs 400 for the Russian originals...

The Chinese aren't stupid enough to use their home grown engines in their fighters, and at the present only Pakistan is stupid enough to order J-10/J-11 (Israeli Lavi copy, possibly with Israeli help, and Italian electronics).

IMHO, at the present Chinese avionic is not a threat to Western or Russian avionic, and I'm sure that the US government would spank GE if GE give China its top engines & electronic designs.

 

[H54]

Why would they even want to spend the time and resources reverse engineering the software when they can just steal it? They have gotten pretty good at bribing people on the inside for stuff like that and it is much cheaper and easier then reverse engineering it.

If its, allegedly, so easy to steal, wouldn't China or any other nation for that matter have everything?

 

[Narmer]

If its, allegedly, so easy to steal, wouldn't China or any other nation for that matter have everything?

Reverse-engineering and outright theft is a million times harder than getting the blueprint handed to you by a gullible companyman. Therefore, convincing these companies to setup shop in China is the smart and more efficient way to go.

 

[werepossum]

Reverse-engineering and outright theft is a million times harder than getting the blueprint handed to you by a gullible companyman. Therefore, convincing these companies to setup shop in China is the smart and more efficient way to go.

Agreed. As the WS10A shows, the ChiComms have the ability to exactly copy anything. Once you have automated, computer-controlled laser comparators, the process is technically quite easy, down to fractions of a millimeter. What is not apparent from dismantling an example, even with sophisticated metallurgical science, are the various manufacturing processes required to give each part the required blend of toughness, hardness, and strength. These manufacturing processes are the knowledge they will receive from GE. Probably take them a decade to master them and maybe another decade to expand that to a military-grade engine, but it never pays to underestimate the Chinese as a people, especially considering the resources they can bring to bear. I'd be willing to bet that in twenty-five years (not that I'll live that long) the ChiComms will be manufacturing military grade engines as good as, if not better than, anything in the world. I wouldn't bet against it happening in ten years.

 

[Darwin333]

If its, allegedly, so easy to steal, wouldn't China or any other nation for that matter have everything?

Because they have to get the hardware designs and manufacturing processes correct first?

Sort of like what it appears they are doing right now.