FWD vs RWD

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Arkaign
From a manufacturing standpoint, I don't see how FWD would be cheaper than RWD to make. The parts on a standard live-axle RWD car should be cheaper, as they are much simpler in design, instead of the differential being stuffed up there by the motor/tranny with CV axles poking out. I think that's why cheap 4-cylinder manual-tranny rwd pickups are so cheap.

Manufacturing and space efficiency mainly. It's much easier to just dump the whole engine/transaxle assembly into one end of the car all in one shot than to throw in a RWD drivetrain. Especially in a unibody chassis.

The little 4-cylinder pickups are cheap because they are body-on-frame and very easy to assemble. You can put the whole chassis together (essentially) with the engine and all running gear and then just bolt the body on around it. Can't do that with a unibody car. FWD also allows more interior volume for a given exterior size when compared to RWD. So the companies can build a car that has more room inside while being smaller outside (meaning they use less steel to build the car, that it can be lighter, which means lighter-duty components, costs savings in many places)

FWD is definitely overall cheaper for the car companies, just because of some of the economies that it allows.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: jagec
MR FTW

Rear/Rear FTW. At least in the snow and slush. People used to swear by their rear-engined VW's in the snow. Of course, a rear engine does have a tendency to make nasty things happen on dry pavement...

ZV

 

[nismotigerwvu]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
I live in Morgantown WV, and if you didn't know this already, the roads are pretty windy and hilly and we get a pretty decent amount of snow (not a ton, but enough to mater) and I drive a 240SX (super lightweight, RWD sports coupe) and as long as you have a manual transmission I actually prefer it over FWD in all situations besides a dead stop. Unless you are moron and mash the gas going around a turn (which would cause loss of control in a FWD as well) it is just far more maneuverable. All you do is turn your wheels where you want to go and lift off the throttle. Its more myth and bad experiences with older large cars (with more importantly a floaty suspension that also happened to be RWD) that add to the perception that wrong wheel drive is beneficial. The only benefit is a reduced manufacturing cost and increased difficulty in service (meaning shade tree mechanic is less likely to do the repairs and more likely to bring said car to dealership).

So you don't agree that the added weight of the motor over the pulling wheels gives you a better traction?

Sounds like a benefit to me.

And where does said weight transfer to the moment of acceleration?

Wow. Just wow.

It takes reasonably forceful acceleration to transfer any meaningful weight rearward. Acceleration that just isn't going to happen in slippery conditions. It's not as though 100% of the weight instantly shifts to the rear wheels upon the lightest touch of the accelerator. In practical application the additional static weight over the drive wheels on a FWD car far outweighs the rearward weight transfer at the speeds encountered during snowy/icy conditions.

ZV

But you are looking at it in the wrong direction, not as much as the shift in wieght makes the RWD that much better once the car is rolling but how much it impacts a FWD in its ability to maintain control. You have to remeber that you are trying to steer with these wheels as well apply torque to get the car moving. So even small shifts in weight can be multiplied as you only have so much grip to attempt to do both with, and once traction is broken you can do neither, another issue RWD avoids (break traction....no big deal, turn the wheel where you want to go and ease off the go peddle). If you feel safer in a FWD car, then by all means stick with it, but a RWD setup with a proper differential (LSD's work just fine ) certainly have physics on their side, no matter how much you'd like to moan otherwise.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
If you feel safer in a FWD car, then by all means stick with it, but a RWD setup with a proper differential (LSD's work just fine ) certainly have physics on their side, no matter how much you'd like to moan otherwise.

At 60 mph, you're right. At 10-15 mph, you're wrong. We're not talking about going all-out on a WRC circuit. We're talking about inching through snow-covered roads at <15 mph with very light throttle inputs.

On a track, I agree with you. In the hands of a well-trained driver, I agree with you. But for your average "just get me from here to there" driver, FWD is safer and more predictable. If the average driver breaks traction in a RWD vehicle in snow/ice, they will spin; the average driver is simply not good enough to catch and correct the car.

As far as your comment about LSDs, I also agree. I find them (clutch-types, not the TORSEN type) to be superior to any traction control system I've tried.

Bottom line is as I said before: In the conditions typically encountered by an average driver, FWD will be superior from the standpoint of practicality.

ZV

 

[geokilla]

Toronto, Canada: RWD. The traction control helps a lot. The traction control light is like always on under slippery conditions in the winter, but the car never feels like it's spinning or anything. RWD is more fun as well, especially when you're in a empty parking lot with snow everywhere and traction control off.

BTW, winter tires are used in the winter and all season used for the other 3 seasons. Oh, and we own a FWD Volvo S70 as well, but I prefer RWD. Too bad I won't be able to drive for a while, so I'm just another passenger.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

RWD... I'm sorry but taking my Expedition and my friends old S-10 is just waaaay too much fun on these dirt roads

 

[KentState]

I live in southwest Ohio and have a RWD car. My only problem in the winter is being stopped going up a hill. Luckily, the car has enough torque that I can slowly let out the clutch without giving any gas to get it rolling.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
If you feel safer in a FWD car, then by all means stick with it, but a RWD setup with a proper differential (LSD's work just fine ) certainly have physics on their side, no matter how much you'd like to moan otherwise.

At 60 mph, you're right. At 10-15 mph, you're wrong. We're not talking about going all-out on a WRC circuit. We're talking about inching through snow-covered roads at <15 mph with very light throttle inputs.

On a track, I agree with you. In the hands of a well-trained driver, I agree with you. But for your average "just get me from here to there" driver, FWD is safer and more predictable. If the average driver breaks traction in a RWD vehicle in snow/ice, they will spin; the average driver is simply not good enough to catch and correct the car.

As far as your comment about LSDs, I also agree. I find them (clutch-types, not the TORSEN type) to be superior to any traction control system I've tried.

Bottom line is as I said before: In the conditions typically encountered by an average driver, FWD will be superior from the standpoint of practicality.

ZV

But if we are tlaking common driver they are no more capable of correcting understeer than oversteer...turnt he wheel to the right...car goes straight..they freak out and mash the brakes...slide off the road and over a ledge and explode into a giant fireball....oversteer...freak out and do a 360 into the other lane...get going again after a new set of underpants

 

[Tommouse]

AWD all the time (Maine)

 

[Pacfanweb]

I prefer RWD. Actually, I prefer 4WD.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
But if we are tlaking common driver they are no more capable of correcting understeer than oversteer...turnt he wheel to the right...car goes straight..they freak out and mash the brakes...slide off the road and over a ledge and explode into a giant fireball....oversteer...freak out and do a 360 into the other lane...get going again after a new set of underpants

Sorry, wrong. A serious accident is far more likely to result from a spin than from understeer. Furthermore, a spin is much more likely to involve other vehicles.

In any case, it's very clear from your examples that you're intentionally failing to apply logic to your own half of this debate and I've decided that you are neither entertaining nor likely to be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain, so I'm done here.

ZV

 

[theeedude]

I prefer RWD for most cars, unless power to weight/traction ratio is small. Then I'd rather have FWD and save some weight.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: nismotigerwvu
But if we are tlaking common driver they are no more capable of correcting understeer than oversteer...turnt he wheel to the right...car goes straight..they freak out and mash the brakes...slide off the road and over a ledge and explode into a giant fireball....oversteer...freak out and do a 360 into the other lane...get going again after a new set of underpants

Sorry, wrong. A serious accident is far more likely to result from a spin than from understeer. Furthermore, a spin is much more likely to involve other vehicles.

In any case, it's very clear from your examples that you're intentionally failing to apply logic to your own half of this debate and I've decided that you are neither entertaining nor likely to be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain, so I'm done here.

ZV

Well, FWIW, your posts in this thread have been outstanding in content and clarity, why Nis didn't get it is beyond me. I've driven all types of vehicles in the dreck, and FWD/AWD are by far the easiest to manage, and least likely to suddenly surprise the driver with a fishtail or spin move.

 

[nismotigerwvu]

Think about it....the average fwd car is going to have far thinner tires on it than the average rwd car....that and at the very least an all season rubber on it versus a summer tire...that will very easily skew your personal perceptions of what "felt" easier to manage or not...and if by apply logic you mean call me half brained instead of trying to explain how you can compensate for the sharing of traction thats taken away from the sheer act of moving forward then by all means crush the other half of my "feeble" brain then...I'm sorry if it pains you but you are going to sell me on a PROPERLY setup fwd in any situation versus a PROPERLY setup rwd car. But if we are talking about a viper running P335/18's wrapped with slicks versus a 1990's civic hatch sitting on blizzacks the width of a penny of course we know whats going to be more manageable

 

[imported_Truenofan]

i dont get it. i've had some of the worst conditions to drive in, on an army post they have conditions for the roads going from green for good, to black requiring a generals approval to drive. i've driven my car on red and borderline black road conditions without any problems ever. i have no abs, no tcs, nothing, on an old suspension. i have 185/60R15's general purpose all weathers on a 2600lbs car, and it drives perfectly in the winter. the roads could be almost ice, and i can drive fine, its all in judgment on how you drive and what you do. you cant drive your normal speed on a icey/snowy/rainy road in any drivetrain. awd only helps with acceleration, other than that, its just like any other car in that its up to the suspension and tires to keep grip and stay steady.
thats why i find have an absolute disgust in how car manufacturers are dumbing down cars with all these electronic additions to make it "easier" or "safer" to drive. the way i see it, is that they're allowing dumber drivers on the road so they can sell more cars than make the roads safer.

 

[ZickZJ]

WI here too. Prefer RWD until it snows then I put it in 4WD.

 

[railer]

nismo wtf are you even talking about? You sound like a fool. The average rwd that is going to be driven in the winter, is not going to be a performance car, so is not going to have fatter tires than a fwd, and is not any more likely to have summer tires than a fwd. My daily driver fwd came with 225/50/16 summer tires btw. Put the same tires on both a fwd and rwd car, and the rwd WILL be more likely to spin the ass end around on a slippery road, and will not be correctable to the vast majority of drivers. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge that fact speaks to your lack of intellect. For most drivers on icy roads, fwd >>>>> rwd. That's so obvious to anyone above the age of six that I'm not even going to mention it again.