Fvck Exxon. Fvck Lawyers.

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,776
31
81
It has been over 18 years since Exxon spilled some 11 million gallons of crude in Prince William Sound, Alaska. And yet Exxon has still NOT paid punitive damages for the tragedy.

Think of that next time you see one of their "pro-environment" TV ads.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill

In 1994, in the case of Baker vs. Exxon, an Anchorage jury awarded $287 million for actual damages and $5 billion for punitive damages. The punitive damages amount was based on a single year's profit by Exxon at that time.

Exxon appealed the ruling and the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ordered the original judge, Russel Holland, to reduce the punitive damages. On December 6, 2002, the judge announced that he had reduced the damages to $4 billion, which he concluded was justified by the facts of the case and was not grossly excessive.

Exxon appealed again, sending the case back to court to be considered in regard to a recent Supreme Court ruling in a similar case, which caused Judge Holland to increase the punitive damages to $4.5 billion, plus interest.

After more appeals, and oral arguments heard by the 9th Circuit Appellate Court on January 27, 2006, the damages award was cut to $2.5 billion on December 22, 2006.[10] The court cited recent U.S. Supreme Court rulings relative to limits on punitive damages.

Exxon appealed again. On May 23, 2007, the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied Exxon Mobil Corp.'s request for another hearing, letting stand its ruling that Exxon owes $2.5 billion in punitive damages. Exxon's only further option for appeal is the U.S. Supreme Court. Exxon has said it will make this final appeal.

Exxon's official position is that punitive damages greater than $25 million are not justified because the spill resulted from an accident, and because Exxon spent an estimated $2 billion cleaning up the spill, along with a further $1 billion to settle civil and criminal charges related to the case. Attorneys for the plaintiffs contended that Exxon bore responsibility for the accident because the company "put a drunk in charge of a tanker in Prince William Sound."[11]

Exxon recovered a significant portion of clean-up and legal expenses through insurance claims[12] and tax deductions for the loss of the Valdez.[13] Also, in 1991, Exxon made a separate financial settlement with a group of seafood producers known as the Seattle Seven for the disaster's impact on the Alaskan seafood industry. The agreement granted $63.75 million to the Seattle Seven but stipulated that the seafood companies would have to repay almost all of any punitive damages to Exxon.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Title: Fvck Exxon. Fvck Lawyers

It has been over 18 years since Exxon spilled some 11 million gallons of crude in Prince William Sound, Alaska.

And yet Exxon has still NOT paid punitive damages for the tragedy.

Think of that next time you see one of their "pro-environment" TV ads.

But but but all the P&Nr's love Exxon and the rest of the Oil Companies.

They have been making record billions in profits right along with Exxon.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
91
Frankly, while I didn't follow the initial case closely, and wasn't a lawyer at the time, it strikes me as a little odd that punitive damages would ever have been awarded here, much less billions of dollars worth.

Broadly speaking, to get punitive damages, the plaintiff has to show that the defendant has shown either deliberate or reckless disregard for the rights or safety of another. Punitive damages are not generally awarded based on accidental events, unless there is a showing that the defendant was so aware of the risk of such an accident that their failure to prevent it constitutes recklessness.

I could understand awarding punitive damages against the captain, who was operating the ship while drunk, but those would be based, in part, on his ability to pay, and a multi-billion-dollar award would be necessarily reduced by the trial court. I am at a loss to understand a huge punitive damages award against Exxon itself, unless they were somehow proven to have known that this guy was such a degenerate lush that he drank morning, noon, and night. It sounds like there were several causative factors in this case, and I don't know that any of them constitutes reckless disregard for the rights or safety of others.
 

Sinsear

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2007
6,439
80
91
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Title: Fvck Exxon. Fvck Lawyers

It has been over 18 years since Exxon spilled some 11 million gallons of crude in Prince William Sound, Alaska.

And yet Exxon has still NOT paid punitive damages for the tragedy.

Think of that next time you see one of their "pro-environment" TV ads.

But but but all the P&Nr's love Exxon and the rest of the Oil Companies.

They have been making record billions in profits right along with Exxon.

Not making billions Dave, but enough so I'm not crying like a pre-schooler over gas prices like you do here.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
I havent bought any products from Exxon (The sign of the Double-Cross) since then, and I don't ever intend to in the future.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,052
30
86
Originally posted by: BrownTown
5 Billion dollars punitive damages is absurd anyways

Why? An American court under U.S. law determined they were at fault, including sufficient grounds for punitive damages. The punitive damages were then reviewed several times on appeals, and the damages were eventually reduced from $5 billion to 2.5 billion.

What the fsck qualifies you to determine otherwise? :roll:
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,113
925
126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: BrownTown
5 Billion dollars punitive damages is absurd anyways

Why? An American court under U.S. law determined they were at fault, including sufficient grounds for punitive damages. The punitive damages were then reviewed several times on appeals, and the damages were eventually reduced from $5 billion to 2.5 billion.

What the fsck qualifies you to determine otherwise? :roll:

The dollar amount represents just how negligent Exxon was. It needed to be enough money to be felt by this giant money slurping corp. Now, the judgement needs to be enforced. Unfortunately, they keep dragging it thru the appeals process. At this point, I hope they get the shit slapped out of them. They've already had the judgment reduced. I hope on the final appeal that the judgment goes back to the original amount....treble. :|

 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
So I'm guessing the final situation means they pay <1 Billion....I can understand the situation if they are trying to ream them of years worth of revenue....
but for exxon to fight this over one year's worth of profits....I suppose it is in their financial interests~ even with over 15 years, the total cost of lawyers can - in no way - add up to 5 billion.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
The reason why 5 Billion is absurd is that corporations are NOT freaking people like everyone tries to act like they are. ALL the Exxon were not responsible, only a few people were. The PEOPLE who were responsible should be punished, fined or put in jail in accordance with their involvement, but all the innocent PEOPLE should not be punished. I don't think its right for a court to punish thousands of innocent people for the idiocy of a few.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,063
48,073
136
Originally posted by: BrownTown
The reason why 5 Billion is absurd is that corporations are NOT freaking people like everyone tries to act like they are. ALL the Exxon were not responsible, only a few people were. The PEOPLE who were responsible should be punished, fined or put in jail in accordance with their involvement, but all the innocent PEOPLE should not be punished. I don't think its right for a court to punish thousands of innocent people for the idiocy of a few.

If you want to get rid of the legal framework of corporations being people, I'm all for that. However under the law yes in fact ALL of Exxon is responsible as it is a single legal entity. The argument you are trying to put forth is akin to asking why you throw someone's whole body in jail for shooting someone when only the finger pulled the trigger.

And well, the only way to punish corporations is by taking their money away, and since a punishment has to actually hurt the corporation it's important to make the amount high enough that they actually feel it.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: BrownTown
The reason why 5 Billion is absurd is that corporations are NOT freaking people like everyone tries to act like they are. ALL the Exxon were not responsible, only a few people were. The PEOPLE who were responsible should be punished, fined or put in jail in accordance with their involvement, but all the innocent PEOPLE should not be punished. I don't think its right for a court to punish thousands of innocent people for the idiocy of a few.

If you want to get rid of the legal framework of corporations being people, I'm all for that. However under the law yes in fact ALL of Exxon is responsible as it is a single legal entity. The argument you are trying to put forth is akin to asking why you throw someone's whole body in jail for shooting someone when only the finger pulled the trigger.

And well, the only way to punish corporations is by taking their money away, and since a punishment has to actually hurt the corporation it's important to make the amount high enough that they actually feel it.

See, thats exactly the problem, you keep talking about the "corporation" like its some object or person. I know in the legal framework its treated that way, but since when has the legal framework ever made sense? Your metaphor is completely off, it is PEOPLE that matter. So a finger pulling a trigger is extrapolated up to the entire PERSON responsible. A company doing wrong should be extrapolated down to the people involved. I honestly don't understand this whole notion people have of the "big evil cooperations", that reasoning makes no sense to me. You can say that the CEO is a bad person, you can say that some employee is a bad person, but to act like a cooperation is evil is silly, its just a legal framework and attempting to personify it is silly. There is no law of nature that says that people who work for big cooperations are any more or less likely to be bad people. Lets say I am the employee of a fortune 500 company, if I turn out to be a serial killer than does my boss deserve to go to jail too, or the CEO of the company? Taking 5 Billion dollars just means alot of middle class workers who had nothing to do with this get laid off, thats silly, the people responsible should go to jail not sit back and watch everyone else pay for their stupidity.
 

HeXploiT

Diamond Member
Jun 11, 2004
4,359
1
76
My fiancée is awaiting damages from this as she lost a portion of her crabbing season due to this disaster.
She's 36 now. I'll be surprised if we see any money within the next decade. By the time exxon pays these funds out they will have made the $5b+ back in interest on holding the $5b alone. $5b is a drop in the bucket for exxon.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,063
48,073
136
Originally posted by: BrownTown
Originally posted by: eskimospy

If you want to get rid of the legal framework of corporations being people, I'm all for that. However under the law yes in fact ALL of Exxon is responsible as it is a single legal entity. The argument you are trying to put forth is akin to asking why you throw someone's whole body in jail for shooting someone when only the finger pulled the trigger.

And well, the only way to punish corporations is by taking their money away, and since a punishment has to actually hurt the corporation it's important to make the amount high enough that they actually feel it.

See, thats exactly the problem, you keep talking about the "corporation" like its some object or person. I know in the legal framework its treated that way, but since when has the legal framework ever made sense? Your metaphor is completely off, it is PEOPLE that matter. So a finger pulling a trigger is extrapolated up to the entire PERSON responsible. A company doing wrong should be extrapolated down to the people involved. I honestly don't understand this whole notion people have of the "big evil cooperations", that reasoning makes no sense to me. You can say that the CEO is a bad person, you can say that some employee is a bad person, but to act like a cooperation is evil is silly, its just a legal framework and attempting to personify it is silly. There is no law of nature that says that people who work for big cooperations are any more or less likely to be bad people. Lets say I am the employee of a fortune 500 company, if I turn out to be a serial killer than does my boss deserve to go to jail too, or the CEO of the company? Taking 5 Billion dollars just means alot of middle class workers who had nothing to do with this get laid off, thats silly, the people responsible should go to jail not sit back and watch everyone else pay for their stupidity.

Because the responsibility is often so diffuse that it's often not possible to punish people. Who do you punish when a corporation pollutes? Do you punish the workers who actually physically dump the stuff? Maybe they don't know what it is. Do you punish the CEO who has policies on waste disposal costs that force someone to dump it to stay within budget? Do you punish the manager who might not know the enviornmental regulations? See everyone's somewhat responsible, but nobody is largely responsible... so do you punish no one? Do you punish everyone? Even though they didn't know? Of course not.

Your serial killer analogy doesn't make sense. While you are serial killing you are neither acting on behalf of the company or as an agent of it, so of course the company wouldn't be held responsible. (unless they had some sort of pro serial killing policy in place?)

I don't really see the argument in this case. Punishing only individuals simply wouldn't work in a lot of cases. It's just not a viable solution.
 

BrownTown

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2005
5,314
1
0
Interestingly enough it appears that they have paid 1 Billion to lawyers so far in the whole process just proving that no matter who wins a lawsuit the real winners are the lawyers.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
SOunds about right for our legal system. If you have the resources you can put off a judgement for a long time. That chick in FL who won 5 million for being a retard might see some of the cash by the time she is 40.
 
Jun 27, 2005
19,251
1
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Originally posted by: DonVito
Frankly, while I didn't follow the initial case closely, and wasn't a lawyer at the time, it strikes me as a little odd that punitive damages would ever have been awarded here, much less billions of dollars worth.

Broadly speaking, to get punitive damages, the plaintiff has to show that the defendant has shown either deliberate or reckless disregard for the rights or safety of another. Punitive damages are not generally awarded based on accidental events, unless there is a showing that the defendant was so aware of the risk of such an accident that their failure to prevent it constitutes recklessness.

I could understand awarding punitive damages against the captain, who was operating the ship while drunk, but those would be based, in part, on his ability to pay, and a multi-billion-dollar award would be necessarily reduced by the trial court. I am at a loss to understand a huge punitive damages award against Exxon itself, unless they were somehow proven to have known that this guy was such a degenerate lush that he drank morning, noon, and night. It sounds like there were several causative factors in this case, and I don't know that any of them constitutes reckless disregard for the rights or safety of others.

To be clear on this... Hazlewood wasn't operating the ship while drunk. As the captain he is the commander (and therefore responsible for everything that happens) but it was in fact his third mate (on his scheduled watch) who was in physical control of the ship when it crashed.

There was excessive ice in the normal channel. (Glacier calving) Hazlewood asked for, and was granted, permission to plot a course around the ice. He informed his 3rd mate of the course deviation and ordered him to resume the channel once the ship was around the ice. Course corrections to resume normal channel sailing failed because the 3rd mate didn't realize that the ship was on auto pilot. Every correction he made to resume the channel once he was past the ice was reversed by the auto pilot. By the time he figured it out it was too late. A very stupid and tragic human error.

I'm as pissed as anyone about that spill... But the misconception that has built up over the years that Hazlewood was some drunk idiot trying to thread his ship through a channel while hoisting another scotch is just wrong. As usual the press and public went for the easiest possible answer to what happened. Joe was an easy villain. And the thought of portraying the whole thing as a drunk driving accident made for sensational headlines.

But that's not how it happened. Joe is responsible because the Exxon was his ship... but this wasn't the drunk driving accident it's commonly made out to be.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
I hope they have to pay their fine PLUS interest. It defeats the purpose if they can drag it out so long that the interest they get from keeping the money almost pays for the fine.

 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
It has been over 18 years since Exxon spilled some 11 million gallons of crude in Prince William Sound, Alaska. And yet Exxon has still NOT paid punitive damages for the tragedy.

[/i]

Where would the punitive damages award go? Why should I, as a consumer of Exxon gas, pay 19 times actual damages?

Could Big oil pardon this judgement when he leaves office?

 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
66
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
but this wasn't the drunk driving accident it's commonly made out to be.

So does that justify letting Exxon off the hook for the money?

I think it very well may. As I said above, simple negligence doesn't entitle a plaintiff to punitive damages - the defendant has to show an intentional or reckless disregard for the rights or safety of another. A mere accident is NOT a basis for punitive damages, much less billions of dollars worth.
 

GroundedSailor

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2001
2,502
0
76
Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Originally posted by: DonVito
Frankly, while I didn't follow the initial case closely, and wasn't a lawyer at the time, it strikes me as a little odd that punitive damages would ever have been awarded here, much less billions of dollars worth.

Broadly speaking, to get punitive damages, the plaintiff has to show that the defendant has shown either deliberate or reckless disregard for the rights or safety of another. Punitive damages are not generally awarded based on accidental events, unless there is a showing that the defendant was so aware of the risk of such an accident that their failure to prevent it constitutes recklessness.

I could understand awarding punitive damages against the captain, who was operating the ship while drunk, but those would be based, in part, on his ability to pay, and a multi-billion-dollar award would be necessarily reduced by the trial court. I am at a loss to understand a huge punitive damages award against Exxon itself, unless they were somehow proven to have known that this guy was such a degenerate lush that he drank morning, noon, and night. It sounds like there were several causative factors in this case, and I don't know that any of them constitutes reckless disregard for the rights or safety of others.

To be clear on this... Hazlewood wasn't operating the ship while drunk. As the captain he is the commander (and therefore responsible for everything that happens) but it was in fact his third mate (on his scheduled watch) who was in physical control of the ship when it crashed.

There was excessive ice in the normal channel. (Glacier calving) Hazlewood asked for, and was granted, permission to plot a course around the ice. He informed his 3rd mate of the course deviation and ordered him to resume the channel once the ship was around the ice. Course corrections to resume normal channel sailing failed because the 3rd mate didn't realize that the ship was on auto pilot. Every correction he made to resume the channel once he was past the ice was reversed by the auto pilot. By the time he figured it out it was too late. A very stupid and tragic human error.

I'm as pissed as anyone about that spill... But the misconception that has built up over the years that Hazlewood was some drunk idiot trying to thread his ship through a channel while hoisting another scotch is just wrong. As usual the press and public went for the easiest possible answer to what happened. Joe was an easy villain. And the thought of portraying the whole thing as a drunk driving accident made for sensational headlines.

But that's not how it happened. Joe is responsible because the Exxon was his ship... but this wasn't the drunk driving accident it's commonly made out to be.

There's 3 things I would like to point out.

1. The captain (in legal language the 'Master') of any ship is responsible for what happens to to the ship, no matter who actually did it, be it a junior officer, a harbor pilot or another ship. So even though he may not have himself caused the accident, the responsibility rests on his shoulders, and through him, the owners of the vessel.

2. It is customary for the captain be on the bridge during harbor passages, river transits, narrow channels like the sound or when pilot is on board. Even if he has not taken over the watch and the watch officer is navigating, Hazelwood should have been on the bridge throughout the passage, specially as he had the pilotage exemption - not the ship. Pilotage exemptions are only given to Captains personally and not the ship.

3. When in close waters like the sound, or in harbor passage or under pilotage, the auto pilot is NEVER used. There are rules about that. The ship should have been under hand steering with a helmsman at the wheel and under the con of either the watch officer or the captain. Putting the ship on autopilot was a big no-no.

While he may not have been drunk, he did have a beer before sailing out, and he was negligent or derelict in his duty of care. I agree he is not the villain he was made out to be but I wouldn't consider him blameless.

Whether this accident comes under the category of crew negligence and the questions of punitive damages I don't know enough about the law on that. But as someone who has been in command of similar sized oil tankers I would not have taken the careless approach of Joe Hazelwood. In terms of ethical responsibility to your job he was almost reckless in his disregard for his duties under the circumstances. I know, had I done what he did (without running aground) and my owners found out I was not on the bridge, I would have lost my job.



















 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
SOunds about right for our legal system. If you have the resources you can put off a judgement for a long time. That chick in FL who won 5 million for being a retard might see some of the cash by the time she is 40.

Yep.

I would encourage you guys to see Michael Clayton, this is the exact situation portrayed in the film, which is awesome.