Fuzzy Math

Dameon

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
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Gore repeated over and over criticizing Bush that "30% of his tax cut goes to the wealthiest 1%"

This is a highly misleading statement and let me show you how by using the Springfield from the Simpsons as an example.

Monty Burns 10,000,000 taxed at a 39.60% tax rate = total tax burden of 3.96 million and a 3% tax cut would give him back 300,000 dollars.

60 families like the Simpsons / Flanders', make an average of 45,000 / yr. this is taxes at the middle class rate of 28% = individual family burden of 12600, and total of 705,600 in total taxes from the "middle class" of springfield. We'll give them TWICE the tax break, a 6% tax cut. This gives individually 2700 back, and altogether they get back 162,000 (60 * 2700 dollars)

39 families such as Nelson Munsks' parents, Cletis the slack jawed yokel, etc. say make an average of 22000 a year. Their tax rate is 15% On average, their tax burden would be 3300. We'll give them a 10% tax cut to help out the most needy residents of Springfield.... which will save each of them 2200 dollars. Total money saved by the working poor of springfield: 85800

So my tax plan, which gives a 3% cut to "wealthiest 1% of springfield" , a 6% tax cut to the "middle class" , and a 10% tax cut for the "working poor" of spring field is in totally worth:

300,000
162,000
+ 85800
---------------
547800

So in essence, my half million dollar tax incentives package gives 54% (300,000 = 54% of 547800 ) of the dollars to the wealthiest 1% of springfield. But percentagewise, I am cutting the middle a lower class by a much larger percentage to reduce their tax burden.

BY DEFINITION - ANY TAX CUT IS GOING TO GIVE A LARGER PERCENTAGE OF DOLLARS GIVEN BACK TO THE RICH IN A PROGRESSIVE TAX BASIS. The rich pay more, and thus unless the tax cut does not reduce the top percentage at all, there will be a "large" percentage of dollars allocated to the upper tax bracket in comparison to the population.

even if we go back to a 2% tax cut for Mr. Burns, taking his benefit down to 200,000...

200, 000
162,000
+ 85800
-----------------

447800

The tax plan would STILL give 44% of the "dollars" to the "Wealthiest 1%" of springfield.

so finally we give in to say Mr burns only deserves 1% .

100,000
162000
85800
-------------
347800

This finally gets to a level of 28% of the dollars going back to the "Wealthiest 1%". But to GET here, we are now giving the middle class a 6 times larger taxcut (1% vs 6%) and 10 times larger taxcut for the lower class. Flat out... this is not pandering to the wealthy. This is still a progressive tax, and a very generous cut to the middle and lower classes. Gore owes America and Mr Bush an apology. He is appealing to the lowest common drive and dividing the people of this country... class warfare at its worst. Mr. Gore is deliberately wordsmithing to paint Bush as an aristocrat and baiting America into a battle of rich vs. poor.

That's why Bush called it fuzzy math... but now you see why he could not outright deny the 30% number. It is most likely true unless there is almost NO taxcut for the upper bracket.

Back when I was little, I hated doing chores. Once, walking into the den after my chores were supposed to be done, my mother asked if the sheets were on my bed. I proudly smiled and answered, "Yes.. the sheets are on my bed." My parents were very unhappy when they found that the sheets were sitting on my bed... neatly stacked in a pile at the end. One can be totally accurate in the choice of words to describe a situation... but fail to accurately portray what is REALLY going on. When I was little, my parents expected better of me, and reinforced that after the incident. We should expect better from our candidates. Neither should be allowed to pull this crap.


"30% of his tax cut goes to the wealthiest 1%"..= "the sheets are on the bed"
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Dameon:

The $85,000 means much more to the poorer people than the $300,000 to the rich. That's Gore's point. Why give people who are driving Merceds Benz's a big tax cut when we have people who can't afford a car? We've had a progressive tax code for a long time. I support it. Your point about statistics is well taken-they can be used to prove anything, including how stupid it is take statistics out of their political context.
 

FettsBabe

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 1999
3,708
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Well said Dameon. If there is going to be a tax cut - EVERYONE DESERVES A PIECE OF IT!!
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
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Your math makes a lot of assumtions, without going over it with a fine tooth comb I can see a couple problems, you are assuming an average income per family of $135,500 a year (because of the huge wage you assume for burns). US average is around $32000 a year (last I saw, it might need to be adjusted). The 39 "poor" families are probably at a much higher average income rate than would more closely match US statistics. The logic appears to be ok, but like I said you are making assumptions that are outside the actual US situation so without revising the numbers not a lot can be said about it.

And as chess said, a tax cut to the poor means a lot more than giving the rich another mercedes. A lot of lower income people in this country think the rich don't deserve any more tax breaks. They already pay lower taxes then any developed nation in the world. The income differences in the US are a big threat, don't forget the french revolution, piss off the poor and they might come knocking with a guillitene. Check the CIA world fact book entry for the US if you wanna know what the "experts" think about it. The 99 version said it better, here is the naughty bit from the 2000 version:

"The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a "two-tier labor market" in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households. "
 

DirkBelig

Banned
Oct 15, 1999
536
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EXCELLENT JOB Big Gold Star for you! Unfortunately, it's easy to demagouge the truth and hard to QUICKLY refute the lie.

There is so much class envy exploited by the liberals that people are willing to pass up a tax break for themselves if they think that the "rich" will get beat up.

According to Bush's tax break calculator, I'd get about $300 back vs. the ZERO Gore thinks I'm entitled to. The liberals will say that Bush's tax break would less than a dollar a day, but for the year that would be my next video card or 20 movie dates or whatever the hell I want to do with MY money.

Bush better start pointing this out or else the envy peeps will vote us all down.
 

Dameon

Banned
Oct 11, 1999
2,117
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chess, that is NOT his point. If he wanted to say it's MORE important to cut lower class taxes more, FINE! say that they're still being taxed for blah.... but DO NOT say that 30% of your tax cut goes to the wealthiest 1%. No matter how you try to cover it - it's intentional, premeditated wordsmithing to BLIND the american public to the FACTS. He came in with that club in his hand and repeated struck Bush with it. He KNEW it was misleading. He KNEW it was inflammatory. He KNEW it appealed to class warfare. He may be a very intelligent man, but he is NOT an innocent man working for the poor.
 

denali

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
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The lower a family?s income, the bigger its percentage tax cut. The share of income taxes paid by people making over $100,000 will rise to 64.1% under the Bush plan from 61.9% under current law.

The largest percentage cuts go to those with the lowest incomes:

A family of four making $35,000 would get a 100% cut in their income tax, about $1,500.
A family of four making $50,000 would get a 50% cut in their income tax, about $2,000.
A family of four making $75,000 would get a 25% cut in their income tax, about $2,500.
Under the current tax code, a single mother with 2 kids starts paying taxes at $21,300. Under the Bush code, she would start paying taxes at $31,300
 

slipperyslope

Banned
Oct 10, 1999
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Ok i am going to come off as a complete asshole with this statement but it comes from me and what I have experienced.

My family is in the lower lower lower middle class. My mom makes $27,000 a year as a single mother. That was last year. In the previous 21 she has averaged around $12,000 a year.

As you see I have not come from a rich powerful background. My mom is single and struggles but I am sick of people saying that we shouldn't give the rich tax breaks. DID THEY NOT GET THE MONEY THEMSELVES. They earned the money just like everyone else. But since the f*cking democrates feel bad that they are rich they just want to take the money from everyone and give it to the poor. I am sorry, you are very successful. Let raise your taxes and lower it for people that haven't done sh*t their entire life.

Welfare is a f*ckin joke. My mom would have gone to work at McDonalds before going on welfare.

AHHHH I HATE GORE. I don't care for Bush but sh*t. The newly rich people are the ones that put the country in the position it is in now. NOT THE STUPID PRESEDENT. And what does Gore want to do. Punish them for being successful by taxing them even more. Yeah that makes me want to be successful.

Everything in my life I have earned. If you are in a lower income family you can overcome it if you want to put the effort forth. It is the people that just want to sit around and do nothing, not educate themselves and live off the goverment that are going to get the best tax cuts from Gore.


OH YEAH, I did find something REALLY FUNNY last night in the debate when Bush was talking about "at risk children", he said,"At Risk children are children that can't learn" OH MY, I just could not stop lauging. I guess since I was an "At Risk" kid, I can't learn. Eventhough I am a computer science major with one year left.

Jim
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
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Red:

At least we get tax cut PROPOSALS every 4 years. Anyway, these tax cuts are very important to conservatives for some reason.

I'm not too excited about getting another $2500. BFD. I'd feel more comfortable knowing my kids will have a planet left to live on, that Alaska won't be drilled full of holes to satisfy our insatiable desire for oil rather than developing alternate technologies, that we won't need to wear gas masks every time we go outside, and that my grandkids will get a decent education. I trust Gore on the environment much more than Bush. If I wanted the $2500 and didn't care about the environment, I'd vote for Bush. I don't think either one knows what to do about our educational system. Personally, I think homeschooling using computers, video tapes, and television are the wave of the future. Schools as we know them should become obsolete, but I don't hear that from either candidate.
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
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Bush is full of garbage.

Yeah get a few hundred extra in tax refund in return for lower wages. As a corporation he basically will try his hardest to lower wages for working Americans.

He's done a good job in Texas where residents earn about 17% below the national average.
 

DirkBelig

Banned
Oct 15, 1999
536
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You people, esp. chess9, are FOOKING MORONS!!!!!:|:|:|

Chess9: Do you think that the evil corporate white guys have their own secret stash of air and water for themselves when they destroy the world, as you seem to believe?

The Arctic Wildlife Preserve is a garbage piece of land that the Alaskans would gladly like to explore for resources. Because Jimmy Carter decided to seize it for his legacy and placate retarded bunny huggers like you, we have to pay $2/gal for petrol.

Liberals have such a swampy conception of "fairness" that it's almost impossible to explain FACTS to them. "Screw the rich!", "Fuck those BMW driving pigs!" is your rallying cry. I have a question for ya:

Why is it fair to take away the money of those who've earned it just because it's more than you made?

Unless your a slum denizen in Calcutta or Bill Gates, there will always be people above and below you on the economic ladder. While you think it's OK to look at those above you and think, "The government should take their money.", you're forgetting that some one BELOW you is looking at YOU and think the same thing. Do you want YOUR money stolen in the name of "fairness".

YOUR life will not improve a whit if the rich have ALL their money taken away in taxes. It doesn't land in your pocket, so why do you cheer the government robbers?!?

Gore keeps carping on about the "evil rich", but, do you realize that to punish them, he's punishing YOU?!? As I mentioned in my post above, I get money back from Bush. If Gore gets in, in the name of "fairness" and envy-mongering, I get NOTHING but the satisfaction of knowing that the rich are being soaked. Thanks Al.

What is the incentive to do better in life when idiots like chess9 think that the moment you make a penny more than him, you should be smacked down with "progressive" taxes.

Gore's "targeted tax cuts" require you to jump through hoops and live your life the way the government wants you to get get YOUR OWN MONEY BACK. When Gore says, "We can't afford tax cuts." I want to scream. Did Al ask if I could afford the largest tax INCREASE in history when he broke the tie in 1993? The government doesn't have A PENNY that it didn't TAKE from US. Why is that so hard for you boobs to understand?!?
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
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<< &quot;30% of his tax cut goes to the wealthiest 1%&quot; >>



Only 30%? Looks like even Bush is screwing the producers in this country, since the wealthiest 1% are paying 50% of the taxes.

DirkBelig,

Chill out. Chess9 is not a moron, nor an idiot. He's wrong, but he happens to be one of the more reasonable fiscal lefties around here. You don't accomplish anything by stooping to the level of the average liberal, and calling names.

Russ, NCNE
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
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<< He's done a good job in Texas where residents earn about 17% below the national average >>



Ferocious,

And more than the average in Arkansas, the rock from which Slick Willy crawled. So, your point would be?

Russ, NCNE
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
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<< The only reason he is the Republican Nominee is because of his Father and Grand Father and has nothing to really do with what he has done prior to being nominated >>



Uh, sorry, Red, wrong again. If I tell you what really happened, are you going to ignore it like you do everything else, or actually pay attention?

I'll give you a hint: Bush's ascendency has far more to do with the most powerful democrat in the state of Texas than any other single factor.

It is actually Bore who was groomed by the family for the Presidency. It is Bore whose father, from the day he was born, planned his career and counted on his boy one day holding the office. It is Bore who's father had an entire wall empty in his den preparing for the day when he'd be able to fill it with pictures of his little boy as prez.

Russ, NCNE
 

denali

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,122
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Red, Why do we need alternative fuel sorces we have enough known oil reserves to last 230 years at current consumption levels. Unless it is to make you feel beter. Source

I do argee with you though that the least they should do is NOT raise taxes but we know taxes will be raised. The small business person do need tax breaks but so does everyone. Without the small business person most people would be out of work, they are truly the most underappreciated segment of the business community.
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
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See, Red, I knew you wouldn't want to know what actually happened.



<< Now tell me Russ, why would they pick Bush who is obviously not one of the brighter stars in the Republican Constellation? >>



Please refer to my hint above.

Russ, NCNE
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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Red:

Bush was chosen over McCain in large part because Republicans like Trent Lott and Tom Delay want nothing to do with campaigan finance reform. They are afraid of what they call &quot;disarmament&quot;. Bush was willing to toe the line. You notice he was very weak on that topic in the debate. I happen to think it is the only way we have a remote chance of cleaning up the dump on the Potomac River. McCain is also a war hero and a guy who is unafraid to tell it like he sees it. All plusses in my book. Although I disagree with him on a few issues, I think he would have been a refreshing candidate. Too bad. :(

Also, my wife, who has voted Republican for about 36 years, told me last night after the debate, much to my amazement, that she didn't trust Bush. She thinks he is another Clinton, &quot;in the dumb color&quot;. Funny quote! :p She doesn't know whom she's going to vote for because she hates Gore. I'm going to pull out the gloves tonight and go a few rounds with her though. I'd love to see her pull that Dem lever once before I die! Probably be the only time. :p

Russ: Thanks for the vote of confidence. I think! :p
 

Russ

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
21,093
3
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Chess9,

Lott and Delay? I suppose they hit every precinct in the country and stuffed the ballot boxes during primaries, and filled out the sheets during caucuses. You're going to have to do better than that.

It's amazing how many ASSumptions are made around here.

Okay, another hint: Bush was universally ignored by Republican leadership until he made one very important ally. An ally who, again, happens to be the most powerful democrat in the state of Texas.

Russ, NCNE