Future of Gaming and PC's

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: Wingznut
The PC platform has a lot of fantastic games... So does the Xbox. (And the PS2 and Gamecube, for that matter.) It's a shame that many people here choose limit their options. Based on what rationale, I'll never understand.

I own both a high end PC and an Xbox (and a PS2). On any given night I can choose to play UT2004, or I can decide to play Project Gotham Racing 2.

Yes, the graphics are better on the PC. But there just isn't any PC game that compares to PGR2. Not to mention that I can play it from the comfort of my couch, in front of my HDTV (surrounded by 5.1 DD audio), using voice chat to talk to fellow racers. Or I can choose to invite a few friends over, and we can play in the same room via split screen.


My point is that each platform offers its pros and cons. And I just don't see the point of limiting your choices.

Correct, the only benefit to consoles are game availability. For some strange reason, game designers choose to limit their income by not releasing many titles for pc's - perhaps due to the xbox, Micro$oft per$uades them not to $ome how...? It's really too bad; I would have loved to play Starcraft: Ghost in particular. Oh well. Btw you can output computer to an hdtv, surrounded by 5.1 dd audio & use voip services to chat with fellow gamers. While you have a minor point on splitscreen, it comes with a big compromise to gaming enjoyment; you get only 320 vertical lines... at least it makes it seem better when your friends leave and you have all 640 to yourself though Not sure why others "limit their options", but the way I see it, I already have a platform upon which to play games. Why buy another? Especially when the leading two are made by two of the most ruthless and greedy corporations on the planet.

Game designers choose to release some of their products on the consoles only because they make A LOT more money that way, not due to some conspiracy theory. Console games outsell PC games by leaps and bounds.

Outputting a PC to HDTV and TRUE 5.1 DD is a major pain in the @ss... So much so, that it's not even worth the trouble.

VOIP is pretty much useless. It's not like the Xbox where everyone in the game is automatically connected. Nothing more to say here.

Yes, I see your point about resolution being lower on consoles. But there's so much more to a fun game than graphics... Many of the best games ever created didn't have the best graphics.

And although there are many more benefits to consoles (over PC's) than "game availability", is there a more valid argument than the games themselves? I'd rather play a great game at a lower resolution than not have it available to me it at all.

HDTV is easy to do with a PC. I just plug in the DVI cable and load up my driver. Dolby Digital is far inferior to EAX 4, which can be achieved with 3 analog outputs to your reciever, easily done.

I threw Deus Ex 2 away because I couldn't play it with reasonable frames at high resolution settings. It was a poor console port, and they lost a lot of customers over it. I know it was probably a great game with a great story, just like the first one, but if I can't play a game the way I want to play, then to hell with it.

 

[Pariah]

The point is, a PC can do anything a console can and more. And do it better.

When you consider that a video card can cost up to 5 times as much as a console without even including the cost of the rest of the computer plus monitor, that isn't saying a whole lot. The difference between consoles and computers are not nearly as big as you seem to think either. Each platform is optimized for the medium they will be displayed on. Console games look a whole lot better on a TV than PC games do on a TV through TV-out. I've never played a console on a monitor, so I don't know what it looks like. PC cards have monster fillrates and bandwidth so they can run at higher resolutions. Since standard TV's aren't highres, there's no reason to waste money on huge fillrates for consoles. Consoles are all about features and eye candy. Almost every graphical feature you see on a PC, first appeared on a console. The current generation consoles are years old, and still hold their own against PC's in the feature department. When the next generation appears, once again, the console will regain the title of graphics kings.

Very few HDTV capable TV's have DVI in. For the few that do, great, for everyone else it's a pain to get working.

Dolby Digital is far inferior to EAX 4, which can be achieved with 3 analog outputs to your reciever, easily done.

I don't get this at all, DD and DTS aren't gaming sound formats, so how can the sound better or worse than EAX? I don't know what consoles use to generate surround sound, but DD and DTS are simply the package the audio is delivered in to the receiver, it has nothing to do with the individual channel creation of the 3D sound.

I threw Deus Ex 2 away because I couldn't play it with reasonable frames at high resolution settings. It was a poor console port, and they lost a lot of customers over it.

Practically every port from console to PC has sucked, just as the reverse is true. Why? Because consoles and PC's do not directly compete. They each excel at their own categories of games while the other stinks at them.

There is no winner here, it depends on what you want. If had to pick one or the other for gaming, I would definitely go with the console. Graphics are great, setup is a breeze, cost is minimal, and most of all, there are a whole lot more games available, and as a result, a whole lot more games that are fun to play.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Nebor
HDTV is easy to do with a PC. I just plug in the DVI cable and load up my driver. Dolby Digital is far inferior to EAX 4, which can be achieved with 3 analog outputs to your reciever, easily done.

Hmm... Which drivers are those that can run 16x9 720p or 1080i "easily"? The only way I know how to do it is to use Powerstrip, which (like I said) is a PITA.

Oh yeah, there's no way you'll convince me that EAX has better positional audio than Xbox's 5.1 DD. Even if it is technically better, then I have yet to come across a game that implements it very effectively.

 

[Nebor]

Very few HDTV capable TV's have DVI in. For the few that do, great, for everyone else it's a pain to get working.

Anyone who would buy an HDTV without DVI has no eye towards the future. HDCP will be required. You can get CRT tube HDTVs with DVI, rear projections with DVI, anything with DVI. Generally though, the non-digital displays work better with component connections to PCs.

EAX competes with DD and DTS in that it's a form of surround sound, although it's transported via Analog rather than digital connections. Out of curiousity, do Xboxes and the like have DD encoding chips built into them, or is the DD files included in the game somehow?

Consoles have never been graphics kings. Textures, resolution and effects have always been ahead on PCs. Console games are created on PCs!! (that has something to do with something... somehow. )

I see the console as a great solution for someone who doesn't have unlimited funds to put into a computer.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Nebor
HDTV is easy to do with a PC. I just plug in the DVI cable and load up my driver. Dolby Digital is far inferior to EAX 4, which can be achieved with 3 analog outputs to your reciever, easily done.

Hmm... Which drivers are those that can run 16x9 720p or 1080i "easily"? The only way I know how to do it is to use Powerstrip, which (like I said) is a PITA.

Oh yeah, there's no way you'll convince me that EAX has better positional audio than Xbox's 5.1 DD. Even if it is technically better, then I have yet to come across a game that implements it very effectively.

ATI and Nvidia have both recently (in the last month) released drivers with HDTV settings included. I was indeed talking about loading a power strip driver though, which was very easily obtained from avsforum. I have no freakin' clue how powerstrip works, but it sure is easy.

I'm not really sure how the Xbox's DD works, exactly, because as Pariah pointed out, DD is just a package to transport sound to the reciever. EAX is actually the method (used in conjunction w/ directsound) to generate the sound channels, and is transported without package via analog to your reciever\speakers. So what exactly is the xbox making it's sound with?? I seriously doubt it's ahead of the latest EAX 4 technology, which, in certain games, is just awsome. Call of Duty works pretty great with it. I've heard that Thief and Hitman games are also good, but they're not my cup of tea.

 

[Bonesdad]

omg, we are witnessing the birth of a new phenomena...console fanbois and PC fanbois...can't we all just get along???

 

[BFG10K]

Hitting a barrier on CPU speeds,

People have been hitting that barrier for twenty years yet they always find a way around it.

I could be wrong

You certainly are.

 

[Pariah]

Anyone who would buy an HDTV without DVI has no eye towards the future. HDCP will be required.

Don't see how this applies to all the people who have already bought their HD capable TV's over the past 5+ years. I'm certainly not going to throw mine out just to get another one with DVI. There are very few CRT based TV's with DVI. No more common than CRT monitors with DVI which practically don't exist either.

Out of curiousity, do Xboxes and the like have DD encoding chips built into them, or is the DD files included in the game somehow?

Game audio is interactive and can't be preencoded. It has to be generated and encoded on the fly.

Consoles have never been graphics kings. Textures, resolution and effects have always been ahead on PCs. Console games are created on PCs!!

You have no idea what you are talking about, if this is what you think.

I seriously doubt it's ahead of the latest EAX 4 technology, which, in certain games, is just awsome.

You have no idea what it is or how it is created, yet you are so sure it is inferior? Interesting. Many still believe A3D 2.0 to be superior from a positional audio standpoint than any version of EAX. How long has A3D been dead, let alone created? It also doesn't matter how great the format is, if game developers do a crappy job of implementing it. Picking out one or 2 games that sound good is pretty meaningless.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
still have to remember that the xbox is several years old at this point and still holding up. when it came out, ur budget pc wouldn't touch it.

Still holding up? :disgust: It looked like crap then and looks like crap now. Sorry, but the only game I'm willing to play in 640x480 is Starcraft. And last I checked that's a pc game. Of course no Ur pc would touch it; Ur is a city that's been dead for millenia. They didn't even have electricity back then, much less computers. However a $500 pc three years ago could easily cream the xbox in that same reso. Keep in mind that price doesn't include a monitor, as console prices don't include TVs.

hm, so when the xbox first came out, what the hell was so great on the pc. doom 3? no... pc games run a bit below the bleeding edge of cpu/vidcard capabilities, thats just the way it is. not that a 500 dollar pc would have bleeding edge tech anyways. anyways, just look at the selection of games, most you won't even get a chance to play on your pc and most look damn good for 640x480 or whatever it is. esp compared to what i was seeing on my computer screen back then. talking about reality, not some optimal fantasy land.

 

[Nebor]

Don't see how this applies to all the people who have already bought their HD capable TV's over the past 5+ years. I'm certainly not going to throw mine out just to get another one with DVI. There are very few CRT based TV's with DVI. No more common than CRT monitors with DVI which practically don't exist either.

Every single manufacturer that makes CRT tube HDTVs makes a model with DVI. Zenith, Sony, Samsung, Phillips...

 

[SonicIce]

Originally posted by: wickedone
I am begining to feel that the XBOX and Playstaion will start taking over, I belived the PC was the best platform for it a year ago but for the following reasons it may change.

Hitting a barrier on CPU speeds, result may be going to duel CPU mother boards and start having more applications take advantage of multiple CPU's, so now the cost has doubled .

Video Cards- use to be you were safe not buying the high end card , now programers seems to be taking advantage of the new cards and also talking about duel Video cards. Cost has gone to $450+ or double.

Dule channel Ram has already been in use for some time but it seems every windows operating system needs much more that the last..

Now from what I have read the new xbox and PS3 will have ( 3 CPU's ). I believe it will have current ATI GPU for Xbox not sure about the PS3. Take that with no operating system running in the back ground and games wrote to make use of the 3 CPUs it will take a lot of cash to get something that runs games much better. They also seem to sell the platforms for little money with the hopes of making money off the games.

Bottom line I could be wrong but looks like where most hardcore gamers spent money building high end systems to run current and upcoming games the future may not be good, with out spending $3000k or more compared to ( just a guess ) $500 for a new XBOX or PS3.

first of all, pc's are upgradeable. whens the last time u opened up a console to insert a new video card. the console will eventually gather dust and the manufacturer will have to come out with PS4 and Xbox3. seccond of all the consoles still play on a television. puny 640x480 interlaced. PC > CONSOLE.

 

[SonicIce]

a high definintion tv costs alot more than you would be paying for a whole pc.

 

[Gurck]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
still have to remember that the xbox is several years old at this point and still holding up. when it came out, ur budget pc wouldn't touch it.

Still holding up? :disgust: It looked like crap then and looks like crap now. Sorry, but the only game I'm willing to play in 640x480 is Starcraft. And last I checked that's a pc game. Of course no Ur pc would touch it; Ur is a city that's been dead for millenia. They didn't even have electricity back then, much less computers. However a $500 pc three years ago could easily cream the xbox in that same reso. Keep in mind that price doesn't include a monitor, as console prices don't include TVs.

hm, so when the xbox first came out, what the hell was so great on the pc. doom 3? no... pc games run a bit below the bleeding edge of cpu/vidcard capabilities, thats just the way it is. not that a 500 dollar pc would have bleeding edge tech anyways. anyways, just look at the selection of games, most you won't even get a chance to play on your pc and most look damn good for 640x480 or whatever it is. esp compared to what i was seeing on my computer screen back then. talking about reality, not some optimal fantasy land.

When the first xbox came out PCs with gf3's were doing much more than it could. Saying xboxes run a bit below the bleeding edge is like saying skateboards go just a hair below highway speeds. As it is now, a $500 pc then could cream any console. Again, agreed about the selection of games - it's disgusting. About looking "damn good" at 640x, though, I can only laugh... Seems like I'm not the one in the fantasy land :disgust:

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: SonicIce
a high definintion tv costs alot more than you would be paying for a whole pc.

Not all of them. And besides, HDTV can be used for PCs too.

 

[menads]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Gurck

Originally posted by: Wingznut
The PC platform has a lot of fantastic games... So does the Xbox. (And the PS2 and Gamecube, for that matter.) It's a shame that many people here choose limit their options. Based on what rationale, I'll never understand.

I own both a high end PC and an Xbox (and a PS2). On any given night I can choose to play UT2004, or I can decide to play Project Gotham Racing 2.

Yes, the graphics are better on the PC. But there just isn't any PC game that compares to PGR2. Not to mention that I can play it from the comfort of my couch, in front of my HDTV (surrounded by 5.1 DD audio), using voice chat to talk to fellow racers. Or I can choose to invite a few friends over, and we can play in the same room via split screen.


My point is that each platform offers its pros and cons. And I just don't see the point of limiting your choices.

Correct, the only benefit to consoles are game availability. For some strange reason, game designers choose to limit their income by not releasing many titles for pc's - perhaps due to the xbox, Micro$oft per$uades them not to $ome how...? It's really too bad; I would have loved to play Starcraft: Ghost in particular. Oh well. Btw you can output computer to an hdtv, surrounded by 5.1 dd audio & use voip services to chat with fellow gamers. While you have a minor point on splitscreen, it comes with a big compromise to gaming enjoyment; you get only 320 vertical lines... at least it makes it seem better when your friends leave and you have all 640 to yourself though Not sure why others "limit their options", but the way I see it, I already have a platform upon which to play games. Why buy another? Especially when the leading two are made by two of the most ruthless and greedy corporations on the planet.

Game designers choose to release some of their products on the consoles only because they make A LOT more money that way, not due to some conspiracy theory. Console games outsell PC games by leaps and bounds.

Outputting a PC to HDTV and TRUE 5.1 DD is a major pain in the @ss... So much so, that it's not even worth the trouble.

VOIP is pretty much useless. It's not like the Xbox where everyone in the game is automatically connected. Nothing more to say here.

Yes, I see your point about resolution being lower on consoles. But there's so much more to a fun game than graphics... Many of the best games ever created didn't have the best graphics.

And although there are many more benefits to consoles (over PC's) than "game availability", is there a more valid argument than the games themselves? I'd rather play a great game at a lower resolution than not have it available to me it at all.

Outputing true DD is major pain in the ass??
WTF are you smoking Wingznut - oh yeah I see you are probably using machine with CPU from your employer - well too bad for you - the rest of us enjoys the NForce2 with the MCP-T and gets the SAME positional DD encoding on the fly that is in XBox (plus much more powerfull graphics).
Here is an advice for you - stop crying, dump Intel and buy NForce2 (soon Nforce3 350 will have it too)!
About HDTV on the large display - why do you even bother using Powerstrip - get a projector almost ALL projectors has VGA input - even a sub $1000 machine like BenQ 6100 VGA that support up to 1280x1024 (unfortunately the panel on this machine is only 800x600 but for $400 more you can get 6200 with XGA).
And no excuses "Oh but I need 16:9 screen" - even with 4:3 panel you can simply buy Panamorph (avsforum is even running a powerbuy now) and get better 16:9.
For those that hadn't tried gaming on 80" screen - just try it you will never want to get back to 46" (it will seem to you like a small silly box)
And for those of you praising 1080i - if you look closer you will notice actuall vertical resolution is only 540p - try to compare that with the real 1920x1440 that current x800 and 6800U can drive (unlike the XBox that chokes even on 720p titles).
Of course consoles has their advantages - they are small, cheap, comes in nice quiet packages and are plug and play - no drivers to install no fussing and so on. But to claim consoles are even in the same realm of computing power that is simply silly.
Plus the demos of the new generation engines (Doom 3, Unreal 2) are quantum leap compared to the current console capabilities - forget about stupid 640x480 rendering, I am talking about physics calculation , AI and advanced effects like volume shadows (with the current increase in pixel shader power it is not far the time when even raytracing will be possible).
Everytime there is a new console coming on the market - it is the same noise how the consoles are going to kill the PC and in the end PC sales are growing and gets more powerfull.
And the reason why a lot of titles make more money on consoles is simply because in the PC world competittion and piracy is much higher. But even the big MSFT that promised XBox will never be released on anything else than XBox had to eat the crow and release it in order to get these additional $$ it can get from PC users.

 

[konakona]

looks like console rig/game developers arent paying any serious attention to FPS genre, at least up until now. considering how FPS is the most dominant genre on the PC platform, i dont see any consoles taking over the PC segment in few years. MS, being paranoid about their xbox's dubbed as a PC derivative has all the excuses to not include KB+mouse. whats the deal with sony? why are they so stubborn about it and wont release a real controller for FPS? honestly i cant stand their controllers, they hurt my fingers. even for arcade games like Melty Blood, QOH99 and partys breaker i much prefer the keyboard despite the fact some moves are harder to pull off on it.
oh yeah, when i play CS i just loathe the default skin, and inability to spray my own logos takes half of the fun factor away

Everytime there is a new console coming on the market - it is the same noise how the consoles are going to kill the PC and in the end PC sales are growing and gets more powerfull.

yep, same thing everytime. sony must love playing tricks on uneducated mass market like last time they did it with their PS2 poligon count. even the developers agreed PS2 graphics was a mild failure and lackluster - far from what they claimed to be) funny how before ps2 came out every ps2 fanboi was like "Ooh! look at those graphics!" when xbox hit the market they are all like "games aint all about grafix blah blah blah"

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Bonesdad
omg, we are witnessing the birth of a new phenomena...console fanbois and PC fanbois...can't we all just get along???

And this is my point... I'll never understand the zealots who'll champion their favorite platform to no end. The only thing they accomplish is to limit their options, and miss out on some great gaming.

 

[rbV5]

My handhelds, consoles and PC's get regular gaming workouts, I don't expect that to change.

 

[Nebor]

About HDTV on the large display - why do you even bother using Powerstrip - get a projector almost ALL projectors has VGA input - even a sub $1000 machine like BenQ 6100 VGA that support up to 1280x1024 (unfortunately the panel on this machine is only 800x600 but for $400 more you can get 6200 with XGA).

Yup, projectors are an excellent option for absolutely everyone. They work great in any room of the house! /sarcasm.

The guy who posted that is definitely a zealot. He can't just be a PC fan, he has to be a PC w/ AMD fan and projector fan...

I do play Halo on Xbox btw, my friends like it...

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: SonicIce
first of all, pc's are upgradeable. whens the last time u opened up a console to insert a new video card. the console will eventually gather dust and the manufacturer will have to come out with PS4 and Xbox3. seccond of all the consoles still play on a television. puny 640x480 interlaced. PC > CONSOLE.

Yes, PC's have better graphics than consoles. This is NOT being argued. (Why do I feel like a broken record?)

However, I don't think there's anyone here who doesn't believe that there's more to a great game than high resolution graphics.

I'll believe that the PC is better than a console in EVERY WAY, when you show me a racing game on the PC that's better than Project Gotham Racing 2, Gran Turismo, or Rallisport Challenge 2. And not just visually... I'm talking about the complete package (i.e. Voice chat, excellent surround sound, custom soundtracks, downloadable content, online racing, etc...)

How about a fighting game better than Soul Calibur 2 or Virtual Fighting Evolution?
Maybe a better sports game than ESPN NHL Hockey, NFL Football, or MLB Baseball?
Perhaps a better adventure game than Resident Evil 4, Jade Empire, or Silent Hill?
Any thoughts on a better action game than Ninja Gaiden, Onimusha, or Devil May Cry?
Got a suggestion for a better platformer on the PC than Maximo, Ratchet and Clank, or Jak and Daxter?


Is anyone beginning to see my point yet? Yes, the PC has better hardware. Yes, the PC has better graphics. Yes, the PC does SOME genres better than the consoles (i.e. FPS, RTS, MMORPG, etc...) But the consoles do many genres better than PC's.

But it's all about the games. And the fact of the matter is that there are A LOT more enjoyable games on the consoles right now.

 

[Wingznut]

Originally posted by: Nebor

About HDTV on the large display - why do you even bother using Powerstrip - get a projector almost ALL projectors has VGA input - even a sub $1000 machine like BenQ 6100 VGA that support up to 1280x1024 (unfortunately the panel on this machine is only 800x600 but for $400 more you can get 6200 with XGA).

Yup, projectors are an excellent option for absolutely everyone. They work great in any room of the house! /sarcasm.

The guy who posted that is definitely a zealot. He can't just be a PC fan, he has to be a PC w/ AMD fan and projector fan...

Heh. I started to reply to that post... But I just couldn't even begin to rationalize a reply to that mess.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Wingznut

Originally posted by: Nebor

About HDTV on the large display - why do you even bother using Powerstrip - get a projector almost ALL projectors has VGA input - even a sub $1000 machine like BenQ 6100 VGA that support up to 1280x1024 (unfortunately the panel on this machine is only 800x600 but for $400 more you can get 6200 with XGA).

Yup, projectors are an excellent option for absolutely everyone. They work great in any room of the house! /sarcasm.

The guy who posted that is definitely a zealot. He can't just be a PC fan, he has to be a PC w/ AMD fan and projector fan...

Heh. I started to reply to that post... But I just couldn't even begin to rationalize a reply to that mess.

I like how he looked down on everyone. "A puny 46" screen is nothing for computers! 80 inches is where it's at!" As the fast majority of PC users cruise along on 15" monitors.

 

[konakona]

i dont extpect the console market to enjoy the variety of doushin games i play on computers, as developing a console game would take more $$$ and manpower meaning they wont be any amature developers trying to make a game that wont sell for a lot of money. thats right, games aint all about gfx. i have tried soul caliber 2 and i will take melty blood over it anyday

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: VanillaH
i dont extpect the console market to enjoy the variety of doushin games i play on computers, as developing a console game would take more $$$ and manpower meaning they wont be any amature developers trying to make a game that wont sell for a lot of money. thats right, games aint all about gfx. i have tried soul caliber 2 and i will take melty blood over it anyday

BBQ?

 

[konakona]

Melty Blood, Partys Breaker, QOH99 just to name a few from the top of my head - these are some of the games i play almost every day. and then there is a whole list of visual novel genre which is whole different story. i know they have those on consoles too, doubt they would match the number of titles on PC however...

google is your best friend. i heard the system is quite similar from that of Guilty Gear (same developer) but havnt played it in person..