Frozen

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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,560
13,801
126
www.anyf.ca
About Red Squirrel's experiment with plain and salted water freezing:

I'm a Physical Chemist, so I understand the theories on this. Bottom line is, what he saw should not happen if all other items are matched. So we start looking at how come it did not work aqccording to theory?

General rule: when you make a solution by dissolving something (salt, here) in a pure solvent (water), the solution's freezing point always will be LOWER than that of the pure solvent. That is why road salt helps ice to melt, and auto antifreeze prevents your radiator from freezing, and common sugary soft drinks do not freeze as easily as water. But that's just the TEMPERATRE at which freezing will start to happen.

The matter of HOW FAST the freezing will happen is different, especially if the surrounding temperature (really cold air) is very much colder than the expected freezing point. The How Fast part can be affected by other things, like what temperature each different beaker of solution started at to begin with, because the entire beaker full must first be cooled down to the freezing point. Also, how much solution was in each beaker, since that affects how fast the initial liquid can be cooled. And of course, air currents in the area that affect how fast heat can be removed from the beaker are important. And finally, a more subtle item: was all the salt actually dissolved before starting? In the process of initiating the formation of solid crystals from a liquid, there's a factor called crystal nucleation. That is, if there is some foreign solid material (a tiny salt crystal not already dissolved, or a piece of dust, or even a rough scratch on the inside of the beaker) in the solution, that is where the first crystals will form. And once there is a tiny crystal, more will build up on it, making the solidification process proceed quickly. On the other hand, if there is no such nucleation particle present (say, in the plain water), sometimes the liquid actually has to get BELOW the freezing point (this is called supercooling) by a bit before some initial crystals suddenly form, and then the process can proceed normally.

So what Red Squirrel's experient really did was to examine the RATE of freezing of the two solutions. This is not quite the same as the exact TEMPERATURE at which each of the two solutions would just START to freeze. The addition of modest amounts of salt to water to make a solution would make small changes to the heat acpacity and thermal conductivity of the resulting solution, but not enough to make a substantial change in results. Beyond that, depending of just how much salt was added, the freezing results over time and temperature get more complex as we look at what is called the binary system phase diagram of the freezing of a liquid solution.


I just rewatched it and it looks like the salt one actually has two stages to it. When I thought it froze, I don't think it did, it just got more "still" maybe like a slush. By the time the normal water froze (and broke my new beaker. :( ) the salt one actually started to freeze even further. Since I had no clock capable of surviving the cold temps I had to get a bit creative with a timer overlay and no idea how accurate it is, but once I got it all figured out I'll make a separate thread. It's kinda neat to see. Nothing ground breaking here, just thought it was neat to try. :p
 

Charmonium

Lifer
May 15, 2015
10,527
3,527
136
Yea mine is just a shovel, I was bein a smartass and you ignored my bait :(

My family members in Rural NE Wisconsin use a big 2 stage Toro (they have a big driveway and around 100 or so foot walk from garage to house.) It's powered with 2 wheel drive and has tire chains. The thing is a monster and will throw snow almost 50 feet if you want it to.
By comparison, I live in the sub(urban) tropics in NJ. But several years ago I finally had enough and got 28", 10hp John Deere blower. The thing is a beast though. In theory, it's self propelled but going up against a foot of snow, there's a lot of pushing that goes on. And even something of that size and power can't handle that wall of snow left by the plows. If I can get within 3-4" of the ground, on average, I call it a day.

The one thing that I'm really amazed at is the fact that about 2/3 of the driveway is gravel and many times it's kicked a steady stream of rock. But the paint job is still perfect. I don't know what wizardry was involved in making that paint, but it's virtually bullet proof.

I should point out that I lived in Minnesota from 1979 to 1997. I remember maybe once it got down to -50.

I dont recall ever feeling -60. Thats horrible. And a little scary.
That's ice fishing weather! :p

Seriously though, yeah anything past -20 and it's not really fun being outside. I kinda minimize any outdoor activity in these temps myself. It's been up and down here. -40 the other day, -20 today. -30 now as I post this. Windchill is -39.
A week or so ago when it got down to the single (positive) digits Fahreheit, everybody was wrapped up like they were running the Iditarod. I'm not sure people around here would survive -20F. Just the thought would probably kill most of us.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,352
1,861
126
A week or so ago when it got down to the single (positive) digits Fahreheit, everybody was wrapped up like they were running the Iditarod. I'm not sure people around here would survive -20F. Just the thought would probably kill most of us.

Hahaha, it's currently -12F here near IL/WI Border. Tonight's Low is still forcast to be -28F. (24.4C currently, with low of -33.3C.)
When I go outside in this stuff, I wear pants, wool socks, boots, heavy leather coat, wool knitted hat, and get chilled unless I'm doin something heavy like shoveling.) I do have a set of thermal pants I could wear if I were going to spend significant time outdoors, could also double up with a hoodie under my coat, but even then, the tip of my nose doesn't like the cold.
 
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BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,989
3,346
146
I'm already forgetting what the cold was like in Montana. Back in California and enjoyed a pleasant beach day on Sunday in a tshirt. It was close to 70 F at the beach and these fuckers were complaining about the ocean breeze being cold.
 

BurnItDwn

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
26,352
1,861
126
It's starting to cool off here, -17F/-27C, wind is light, so wind chill is not too bad yet -32F/-36C.
 

Mayne

Diamond Member
Apr 13, 2014
8,849
1,380
126
My bedroom window is frozen open...even I had to sleep with long johns/socks and a shirt on last night..halfway thru the night i shoved a jacket in the opening to cut down some of the wind chill in my room.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
100,197
17,889
126
My bedroom window is frozen open...even I had to sleep with long johns/socks and a shirt on last night..halfway thru the night i shoved a jacket in the opening to cut down some of the wind chill in my room.


At least use one of those window sealing kits. Basically heat shrink sheets attached to the frame.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
34,778
1,951
126
It's 5 outside here as well. I just tried to leave for work, but physics said no. At least I was able to stop the car before it slid backwards off of my driveway and down a 100' hill.
 

SKORPI0

Lifer
Jan 18, 2000
18,481
2,418
136
I heard they arrested Elsa.

51325119_1248338171984205_5338825098331684864_o.jpg

ATTENTION: Due to the EXTREME COLD weather, all criminal activity and acts of stupidity and foolishness has been cancelled. Even Elsa has been placed under arrest by Hanahan Police Department in South Carolina with NO BOND until further notice. Thank you for your attention and understanding to this matter. Respectfully, the McLean Police Dept.
 
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Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
31,294
12,817
136
That's pretty serious Exterous!

it's -20C and -29C with the windchill.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,560
13,801
126
www.anyf.ca
those little propane burners are good.

Actually I do have one of those if I was really stuck. They don't really have any proper venting mechanism though so not something I'd want to run for long, but would at least help keep the pipes from freezing if I point it right at the pipes.