From Soundstorm to Audigy 2 ZS

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: stncttr908
I went from my NF7-S 2.0 to an Audigy 2 ZS and I could immediately tell the difference. :thumbsup:

Considering that the ZS costs more than a board with SS, you'd better be able to tell the difference

 

[Fietsventje]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
nForcersHQ audio FAQs

Yes, the APU is present on the MCP, Soundstorm and APU at nV's site

According to this, it is only in the MCP-D, and MCP-T:

source: http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/reviews/nForce/nForce-p2.html

• MCP - nForce1 and nForce2 both have versions of this chip, both without any APU. nForce1 version has only USB 1.0/1.1 support. nForce2 version adds USB 2.0 support;
• MCP-D - this is the nForce1 chip with APU included. Also has USB 1.0/1.1 support;
• MCP-T - this is the nForce2 chip with APU included. Also adds Firewire and DualNet (NVIDIA and 3Com networking connections)

That review of the nForce Audio Capabilities is very comprehensiven, btw. Recommended read if you want to know how they perform and what they are.

Greetz,
Fietsventje

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Fietsventje

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
nForcersHQ audio FAQs

Yes, the APU is present on the MCP, Soundstorm and APU at nV's site

According to this, it is only in the MCP-D, and MCP-T:

source: http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/reviews/nForce/nForce-p2.html

• MCP - nForce1 and nForce2 both have versions of this chip, both without any APU. nForce1 version has only USB 1.0/1.1 support. nForce2 version adds USB 2.0 support;
• MCP-D - this is the nForce1 chip with APU included. Also has USB 1.0/1.1 support;
• MCP-T - this is the nForce2 chip with APU included. Also adds Firewire and DualNet (NVIDIA and 3Com networking connections)

That review of the nForce Audio Capabilities is very comprehensiven, btw. Recommended read if you want to know how they perform and what they are.

Greetz,
Fietsventje

Posted by Kingofcomputer in another thread

ALC650 is pure codec chip, it cannot do any processing. The features it is missing are 4/6 speakers support, SPDIF interface, H/W Dolby Digital Encoding.

Search "MCP" at nvidia.com:

Media and Communications Processor (MCP) [100%]
Part of the NVIDIA nForce and nForce2 platform processing architectures, the MCP replaces the ?Southbridge? of traditional motherboard architectures. The MCP (including the MCP-D and MCP-T) delivers the most complete suite of integrated networking and communications devices including Ethernet, HomePNA 2.0, IEEE-1394a/FireWire(R) port, and up to six USB ports. In addition, the integrated audio processing unit (APU) provides support for Dolby(R) Digital 5.1 encoding.
Last Updated: Mar 20, 2003

Audio Processing Unit (APU) [5%]
Integrated into the first- and second-generation nForce media and communications processors (MCP), the APU delivers unprecedented 3D positional audio to the PC platform.
Last Updated: May 20, 2003

It clearly states that ALC650 requires audio controller from the chipset.

The ALC650 is an 18-bit, full duplex AC'97 2.2 compatible stereo audio CODEC designed for PC multimedia systems, including host/soft audio and AMR/CNR based designs. The ALC650 incorporates proprietary converter technology to achieve a high SNR, greater than 90 dB. The ALC650 AC'97 CODEC supports multiple CODEC extensions with independent variable sampling rates and built-in 3D effects. The ALC650 CODEC provides two pairs of stereo outputs with independent volume controls, a mono output, and multiple stereo and mono inputs, along with flexible mixing, gain and mute functions to provide a complete integrated audio solution for PCs. The digital interface circuitry of the ALC650 CODEC operates from a 5V/3.3V power supply with EAPD (External Amplifier Power Down) control for use in notebook and PC applications. The ALC650 integrates a 50mW/20ohm headset audio amplifier into the CODEC, which can save BOM costs. The ALC650 also supports an AC'97 2.2 compliant SPDIF out function which allows easy connection from the PC to consumer electronic products, such as AC3 decoder/speaker and mini disk. The ALC650 CODEC supports host/soft audio from Intel 810/815/820/845 chipsets as well as audio controller based VIA/SIS/ALI chipsets. Bundled Windows series drivers (Win95/98/ME/2000/XP/NT) and sound effect utilities (supporting Karaoke, emulation of 26 sound environments, and 5-band equalizer) provide a more comprehensive entertainment package for PC users. Finally, internal PLL circuits generate required timing signals, eliminating the need for external clocking devices.

"Nforce/Nforce2's basic APU has 256 Voices, 64 3D Voices, 32 HW-Submixers, DLS2, EQ, some effects, but only 2 speakers." that's where it differs from the more feature rich APU in the MCP-T/D. The features it is missing are 4/6 speakers support, SPDIF interface, H/W Dolby Digital Encoding.

 

[will889]

I've read all of those in the past, and many more, and cae to my own conclusion. If you'll notice here (one of the links given)

http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_soundstorm.html

I noticed in my tests that if you install the nVIDA version of the realtek driver on any MCP only mainboard that you can in fact get the nVIDA soundstorm panel up and running with limited 2 channel output in analog, but that's where is stops. It's not soundstorm, nor does it allow the DAC to encode in real time dolby digital via SPDIF. It's just the same as if you were to run te realtek driver, and with 1/4 of the funtionality of the realtek driver (2 channel only). So for MCP only equipped motherboards I would recommend an add in soundcard. It really doesn't matter which one as most are better then regular ALC650. There are a few notherboards that use the cmedia 8738, 9739 dac that actually sound much better then the realtek dac (ALC650). Chaintech and Epox use them. But certainly the real MCP-T boards sound very good when using SPDIF or RCA out with the new funcionalities that the new 4.24 soundstorm panel gives. I would say it is better than a regular Audigy from the perspective of my own ears. Creative Audigy 2 is better solution though - as is the M-Audio Revo (for music) imo. I would echo the sentiments I have heard above in that it really matter what your ears like the best. Give or take 2-5% CPU usage is nothing really with todays 3.2 Hhz P4, 2.2 AMD K7, 2.0-2.2 K8 AMD CPU's.Be neat of maudio would put out a really great card expressly for gaming though to compete with the A2 ZS.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Hoot
I've read all of those in the past, and many more, and cae to my own conclusion. If you'll notice here (one of the links given)

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_soundstorm.html">http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_soundstorm.html</a>

I noticed in my tests that if you install the nVIDA version of the realtek driver on any MCP only mainboard that you can in fact get the nVIDA soundstorm panel up and running with limited 2 channel output in analog, but that's where is stops. It's not soundstorm, nor does it allow the DAC to encode in real time dolby digital via SPDIF. It's just the same as if yoo were to run te realtek driver, and with 1/4 of the funtionality of the realtek driver (2 channel only). So for MCP only equipped motherboards I would recommend an add in soundcard. It really doesn't matter which one as most are better then regular ALC650. There are a few notherboards that use the cmedia 8738, 9739 dac that actually sound much better then the realtek dac (ALC650). Chaintech and Epox use them. But certainly the real MCP-T boards sound very good when using SPDIF or RAM out with the new funcionalities that the new 4.24 soundstorm panel gives. I would say it is better than a regular Audigy from the perspective of my own ears. Creative Audigy 2 is better solution though - as is the M-Audio Revo (for music) imo. I would echo the sentiments I have heard above in that it really matter what your ears like the best. GIve or take 2-5% CPU usage is nothing really with todays 3.2 Hhz P4, 2.2 AMD K7, 2.0-2.2 K8 AMD CPU's.

thanks for the evaluation Hoot :beer: I agree it's at least on par with the original Audigy while offering lower CPU usage also. The SS rarely exceeds 2% and has no perceptable impact on games when using high quality from what Kyle says over at [ H ]. The Audigy was a marketing scam

When the Audigy first came out, Creative touted the card's supposed support for 24-bit audio at 96kHz. The Audigy's DACs support 24-bit audio at 96kHz, so there's some truth to Creative's marketing spin. However the DACs are the only components on the Audigy that support 24-bit/96kHz audio. The card's audio chip and ADCs are both limited to 16-bit audio at 48kHz. No matter how good that 24-bit/96kHz DAC is, it's still getting a signal from the audio chip that's been digitally processed at 16 bits/48kHz. It's sort of like feeding a set of audiophile-quality speakers with an audio signal from a dusty old tape deck; the speakers aren't going to make the source audio sound any better.
At best Creative's claimed support for 24-bit/96kHz playback a case of, erm, creative marketing[/b]

Have a look at the gaming performance of the Audigy vs VT8235/Realtek ALC 650 implementation and it is very clear the audigy is dated as a audio solution. link The subjective audio quality is another matter of course and many are happy with the Audigy in that respect, so more power to them I just don't like it when they try to shove it down my throat as I believe SS and Envy are better overall solutions than an original Audigy.

 

[will889]

Thanks punisher . Right now with Logitech Z-680's down to $200.00 (because the next set of Logi's are due out soon) the way to go might be using your MCP-T with Z-680's, especially now that nVIDA has improved the control panel and IDE drivers. Unless you have the money for an Audigy 2 and actually preffer the sound of the A2 dac (Dac on A2 regular and ZS are slightly different). I wonder why Voyetra decided not to improve on the Turtle Beach Santa Cruise? Right now they sell and Envy24 card, and a CMI 8738 card (both overpriced). With Philips and Voyetra out of the game it's just VIA (envy) and Creative now, as soundstorm is on the way out.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

That's what Kyle was using for the audio subsystem tests, the 680's, and he seemed impress with the SS with newer drivers on them. I run SS through S/PDIF to my Sony A/V with Sony 5.1 speakers and for movies and music it's great.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: Hoot
I've read all of those in the past, and many more, and cae to my own conclusion. If you'll notice here (one of the links given)

http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_soundstorm.html

I noticed in my tests that if you install the nVIDA version of the realtek driver on any MCP only mainboard that you can in fact get the nVIDA soundstorm panel up and running with limited 2 channel output in analog, but that's where is stops. It's not soundstorm, nor does it allow the DAC to encode in real time dolby digital via SPDIF. It's just the same as if you were to run te realtek driver, and with 1/4 of the funtionality of the realtek driver (2 channel only). So for MCP only equipped motherboards I would recommend an add in soundcard. It really doesn't matter which one as most are better then regular ALC650. There are a few notherboards that use the cmedia 8738, 9739 dac that actually sound much better then the realtek dac (ALC650). Chaintech and Epox use them. But certainly the real MCP-T boards sound very good when using SPDIF or RCA out with the new funcionalities that the new 4.24 soundstorm panel gives. I would say it is better than a regular Audigy from the perspective of my own ears. Creative Audigy 2 is better solution though - as is the M-Audio Revo (for music) imo. I would echo the sentiments I have heard above in that it really matter what your ears like the best. Give or take 2-5% CPU usage is nothing really with todays 3.2 Hhz P4, 2.2 AMD K7, 2.0-2.2 K8 AMD CPU's.Be neat of maudio would put out a really great card expressly for gaming though to compete with the A2 ZS.

How embarrassing and very disappointing. I recently built a new computer with an nForce2 based chipset using the MCP chip. When I was playing around with the sound, I was thinking, "Wow, the nVidia APU is so awesome!" But I was being impressed by a host based AC97 (Realtek) solution? Good grief! I was hoping I was getting the nVidia APU that was only missing the real-time Dolby Digital encoding. The press releases from nVidia was too confusing.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: Hoot
Thanks punisher . Right now with Logitech Z-680's down to $200.00 (because the next set of Logi's are due out soon) the way to go might be using your MCP-T with Z-680's, especially now that nVIDA has improved the control panel and IDE drivers. Unless you have the money for an Audigy 2 and actually preffer the sound of the A2 dac (Dac on A2 regular and ZS are slightly different). I wonder why Voyetra decided not to improve on the Turtle Beach Santa Cruise? Right now they sell and Envy24 card, and a CMI 8738 card (both overpriced). With Philips and Voyetra out of the game it's just VIA (envy) and Creative now, as soundstorm is on the way out.

I wish another vendor would come out with another sound chip that didn't use host based processing. I bought the Mad Dog Entertainer 7.1 and was very impressed with the sound quality. But I wished it didn't use the CPU for audio processing. If only Via would come out with a chip that sounded as good as the Envy but had some more audio processing muscle in them.

 

[will889]

Hey, If you liked the way the AC97 sounded than that's fine . Please don't take anything I say to heart here. First, if you don't have an Audigy 2 in your box to compare with, and your games sound fine, then just ride it out until you hear something different someday.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Hoot
Hey, If you liked the way the AC97 sounded than that's fine . Please don't take anything I say to heart here. First, if you don't have an Audigy 2 in your box to compare with, and your games sound fine, then just ride it out until you hear something different someday.

agreed, once you get hooked on EAX and high quality sound, you cant go back to the realtek AC97 junk

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
That's what Kyle was using for the audio subsystem tests, the 680's, and he seemed impress with the SS with newer drivers on them. I run SS through S/PDIF to my Sony A/V with Sony 5.1 speakers and for movies and music it's great.

Yup, Sony and Bose, the best known names in Home Theater.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
That's what Kyle was using for the audio subsystem tests, the 680's, and he seemed impress with the SS with newer drivers on them. I run SS through S/PDIF to my Sony A/V with Sony 5.1 speakers and for movies and music it's great.

Yup, Sony and Bose, the best known names in Home Theater.

Don't be a dick...ooops too late! I know Sony isn't a leader in audiophile technology, I'm not an audiophile and it's fine for my tastes combined with SS. Besides it was a hot deal on the price and I paid less for the whole setup than most Audiophiles spend on one speaker

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
That's what Kyle was using for the audio subsystem tests, the 680's, and he seemed impress with the SS with newer drivers on them. I run SS through S/PDIF to my Sony A/V with Sony 5.1 speakers and for movies and music it's great.

Yup, Sony and Bose, the best known names in Home Theater.

Don't be a dick...ooops too late! I know Sony isn't a leader in audiophile technology, I'm not an audiophile and it's fine for my tastes combined with SS. Besides it was a hot deal on the price and I paid less for the whole setup than most Audiophiles spend on one speaker

Well, since you put it that way, I can let you slide. What's the model number and how much did you get it for?

 

[Mem]

Don't be a dick...ooops too late! I know Sony isn't a leader in audiophile technology, I'm not an audiophile and it's fine for my tastes combined with SS.

If you want serious audiophile sound quality look at Musical Fidelity,Arcam,Mission, to name a few serious audiophile HI-FI companies(I use to be an Audiophile nut ).

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Naustica

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
I went from SS to a ZS and the difference is quite pronounced in terms of fidelity. CPU utilization for the ZS is a fraction of what SS requires. I use full hardware sound support in UT2k4 with no hitches at all, which SS simply couldn't accomplish. If you take the jump, you won't be dissapointed.

CPU utilization should have been similar if you're using Soundstorm. Remember you're not using Soundstorm unless you connect your speakers or receiver via SP/DIF/Optical cable.

I've used Soundstorm connected via SP/DIF to cheap Kenwood receiver and JBL speakers and it sounded very good. Same when connected to my Logitech Z680 via SP/DIF.

I have Klipsch 4.1 speakers 400w, plugged in with the only option available to me (analog), but what I was hearing WASN'T onboard audio? Also, it doesn't say ANYWHERE in my mb manual that I have to go out and buy new speakers to be able to use SS. Sometimes you guys get caught up way too far in the minutiae. Whether CPU hit SHOULD be one way or another isn't relevant. I know my box and the way it played 2k4, both before and after the upgrade, and I don't willy-nilly spend money. Read some reviews on the ZS and then come back and tell me something.

P.S I never said SS didn't sound good, only that ZS audio sounds MUCH better.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Fietsventje

Originally posted by: Naustica
Remember you're not using Soundstorm unless you connect your speakers or receiver via SP/DIF/Optical cable.

That is the point of question to me ... Did you happen to test the CPU utilisation when using the analog outputs? Or is there an article somewhere on the internet proving that this is true?

Thanx in advance,
Fietsventje
PS: that is Dutch for Bikeman, which is supposed to be myu nickname, but it appears to be in use already ...

It's an undisputed fact. Quit disputing.

This attitude is what irritates me about you, Nebor. If he wants something tangible to support this claim, why not either supply it or be quiet? Naust should just quiet down because YOU said said something was undisputable?

:disgust:

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Fietsventje

Originally posted by: Naustica
Remember you're not using Soundstorm unless you connect your speakers or receiver via SP/DIF/Optical cable.

That is the point of question to me ... Did you happen to test the CPU utilisation when using the analog outputs? Or is there an article somewhere on the internet proving that this is true?

Thanx in advance,
Fietsventje
PS: that is Dutch for Bikeman, which is supposed to be myu nickname, but it appears to be in use already ...

It's an undisputed fact. Quit disputing.

This attitude is what irritates me about you, Nebor. If he wants something tangible to support this claim, why not either supply it or be quiet? Naust should just quiet down because YOU said said something was undisputable?

:disgust:

Notice how he FREAKED out on me:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: Nebor

It's an undisputed fact. Quit disputing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry, I won't Isn't that what forums are made for?

Oh wait, he took it as a joke (and english is his second langauge!) Simmer down and quit trying to fight with me in every thread. Check pricewatch for a sense of humor.

 

[HardWarrior]

I'm not freaked out by you Nebor. I said you irritate me, just like I obviously do you "Mr Moderator, please ban HardWarrior. He's combative and doesn't easily tolerate name-calling! (whine, moan)." Theres a huge difference. At least there is in the real world, outside of that brain-bubble you live in. And stop trying to play to the crowd, no one else should care that we irritate each other. You're coming off like a bad stand-up.

Grow up little man, not everyone is interested in your dead-flat sense of humor. This is an online forum, you don't have friends here. BTW, if you tell me that you're less than drinking age (which you seem to be), I'll just slap you on my ignore list.

 

[Slickone]

How confusing. So have we concluded the MCP comes with the APU? And using analog out does use the APU for processing?

Hoot, I think it's 'Nvidia'...and Santa 'Cruz'...and...

 

[Fietsventje]

I think you can summarize like this:

• The MCP has got no APU onboard, and only offers an AC '97-interface that can be used by Realtek and C-Media and other codecs. All processing is done by the host CPU.
• The MCP-T has got the APU included and will allways (i.e. with the correct drivers installed) offload the gross of the sound-processing off the CPU. The sound will be 'rendered' by a third-party DAC, e.g. a Realtek-codec-chip, but that will be used only as a digital-to-analog-convertor. You can also choose to output digitally, through S/PDIF, which will make the Realtek completely inactive.
• If you use the S/PDIF-output-capabilities of the MCP-T, you can also make use of the DICE-feature that nVidia offers: It encodes whatever is output by the APU to a Dolby Digital AC3-stream that you can 'render' by an external receiver.

Hope this makes sense.

Greetz,
Fietsventje

 

[Slickone]

So using #3, even 4 channel games will be in DD?

Also, I thought DAPUNISHER above had shown the MCP has the APU.

 

[Fietsventje]

Quote from (again ) Toms Hardware Guide: ( http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20020716/nforce2-06.html )

Basically, the new MCP-T differs from the MCP in three aspects: the MCP-T offers an integrated FireWire controller and a second network controller, as well as NVIDIA's Audio Processing Unit (APU). And be careful to note that MCP has different meanings with the nForce and the nForce2. With the first nForce, the APU was included in the simple MCP, whereas with the nForce2, the MCP-T is required.

BTW, I got this link from another thread on this forum: This one.

Quote from Anandtech.com: ( http://www.anandtech.com/chipsets/showdoc.html?i=1654&amp;p=5 )

The nForce2 chipset debuts with two MCP offerings: MCP and MCP-T. The basic MCP is a bare MCP that is pin-compatible with the original MCP that was introduced with nForce. This MCP supports USB 2.0, ATA/133 and it has NVIDIA?s own Ethernet MAC. The basic MCP does not have NVIDIA?s Audio Processing Unit (APU) and just basic AC?97 audio support without an integrated DSP. This is the cost effective MCP that can be used on entry-level motherboard designs.
(...)
The MCP-T is the more interesting of the two as it builds upon the MCP features by adding IEEE-1394a (Firewire) support, NVIDIA?s APU (unchanged from the original nForce) and a second Ethernet MAC.

Third one: ( http://www.lostcircuits.com/motherboard/asus_a7n8x/5.shtml )

The heart of the Digital Media Gateway role for the nForce2 is the MCP-T which features a few improvements such as Soundstorm APU, dual-net Ethernet support with integrated nVidia and 3Com controllers, USB2.0 and Firewire support. A stripped down version of this chip sans APU (only standard AC97) and further lacking the extra 3Com Ethernet controller and firewire is the MCP without "-T". The ASUS A7N8X features the MCP-T version in the "Deluxe" edition, the standard version only sports the MCP meaning that one should check which version is being bought, especially online.

What to believe? The two most respected (in general) hardware-review-sites, or marketing-inspired quotes from a manufacturer, maybe trying to confuse even the not-so-very-uninterested consumers? (In which they appear to succeed quite well ...)

Greetz,
Fietsventje

 

[will889]

I know - it's gone on for a long time. Basically, we know that MCP-T equipped boards have real time dolby digital enciding capabilities (on the fly). MCP only does not. Plent of people bought MCP only boards because of the sound issues with early revision MCP-T boards and drivers having problems, much of which has been corrected with newer boards and better drivers with both improved sound quality and control panels. The 4.24 drivers offer a nice control panel with improved finctionality and toggling of speaker management. I think even better solutions are on the way from cmedia and realtek (from what I hear).

 

[daddyo]

Originally posted by: stncttr908
I went from my NF7-S 2.0 to an Audigy 2 ZS and I could immediately tell the difference. :thumbsup:

Agreed.

I just upgraded from my onboard A7N8X Deluxe to an Audigy 2, and the difference is night and day. I'm using 5.1 analog speakers.

The problem I had with the Soundstorm/Realtek solution was noise, feedback, and volume level balance. The microphone volume was only useable with the +20db gain flipped on, at which point a low level hiss (presumeably from grounding) was noticeable to even an untrained ear. In addition, with the microphone open, if I turned the volume up very high at all, I would get a feedback loop.

The Audigy 2 fixed all those problems, and has a crisper sound in all applications generally.