From Bose to....Bookshelves?

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wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
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offload 4.1s? ohhh... you mean the Klipsch's. I still don't understand what you mean tho. By the way the comment I made earlier about not liking Klipsh's high end. That's because 5 years ago they used bullhorn piezo tweeters. I haven't listened to them lately, and I don't know how much has changed since then. Plus, I'm sure not all their speakers use the bullhorns. They are very loud, but I just don't like how they sound. I know they are a very well respected brand tho.

Seriously you should to go to a high end specialty audio store like Ovation and listen before you buy. Bring some CD's to test out the bass and the high's. But if you must buy without listening all the brands we have mentioned will do just fine. Just beware of how what salesmen say, they are on commission.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
4,201
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if I do go through with this i'm probably going to start off with receiver and sats and then get a sub once i see how it sounds

you guys got me so excited! AGH must have solid sounding system! hehe
 

wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
881
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Originally posted by: rnp614
if I do go through with this i'm probably going to start off with receiver and sats and then get a sub once i see how it sounds

you guys got me so excited! AGH must have solid sounding system! hehe



That is the best way to do it. I still have my Infinity bookshelves I bought as an undergrad, They started out as main speakers, then satellites, and now I use them as bedroom speakers.

 

wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
881
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76
I don't know if I would say they are better, bigger yes. I guess the only speakers that I consider a definite better in quality compared to Infinity and the rest we talked about is ultra high end brands like M&K. I don't own any of those... yet.

Anyway I have to get some sleep, talk to you later. Hopefully taterworks will have joined us by then. Cya and good luck
 

Shockwave

Banned
Sep 16, 2000
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Got no highs? Got no lows?
MUST BE BOSE!

Although I disagee with tater's numbers, I do agree on the important point. For the same amount of money you can do scads better then Bose.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
4,201
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haha thanks. I got a flight today the 14th so I'll see you all sometime this evening.
 

taterworks

Member
Dec 7, 2003
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Shockwave, those numbers are correct. Sound and Vision magazine had to measure the Bose Acoustimass system with a tolerance of +3/-10 dB when determining frequency response. There is indeed a hole between 280 and 200 Hz, the bass module drops off at about 45 Hz, and the upper range limit of the satellites is between 13kHz and 15kHz.

The Celestions won't have much bass on their own without the sub to extend their output and add extra cone area. The whole deal is that the subwoofer has a larger cone and that larger cone delivers a lower resonant frequiency. If you are looking for a bookshelf that will still weigh in on the bass, look at the 6.5" model of the new JBL Northridge E-Series. I played some rap through them at the Best Buy store and that woofer cone has an incredible amout of cone throw for a 6.5" in a general market speaker. However, I have to wonder if this doesn't cause some distortion in the midrange. You will like the Celestions and the Yamaha powered sub better than the celestions alone, or the JBLs. However, I imagine the JBLs are okay if you must not have a sub. You can go listen to them at the local Best Buy store and if you decide you like them you can get them. Or you can do as I recommended earlier and get the yamaha reciever, celestion speakers, and yamaha sub. Do this.
 

tmanndsu08

Junior Member
Dec 11, 2003
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I think another reason that the con artists...err bose... succeed in marketing is because many people *cough* wives *cough* can't stand to have speakers bigger than a 3 inch cube showing anywhere.

If i build a home theater i'm going to find the biggest speakers ever made and sit them way out in the open with cables laying around everywhere.
 

wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
881
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76
taterworks -
please offer a word of advice. What is the best magazine/other source of information I can get for keeping my knowledge of speakers updated as well as expanding it. I do believe you know alot more about speakers than I do as I didn't know about the 15" Adire Audio "Tumult" using a paper blend. I always thought that the only speakers that performed wellusing paper were the famous green backs. And thats just because musicians were looking for a "sound" not sound reproduction. Kind of like how multidensity fiber board is used in speakers but maple is used for guitar cabinets. Also, I don't fully understand the physics behind Series-Tuned 8th-order bandpass and several other things you've mentioned. I understand the rough ideas behind some of them, but would fail miserably short in designing anything more complicated than simple bandpass ports for an accoustic enclosure. I'm not looking to design speakers, but I am interrested in learning more about the technologies so that someone could really grill me on acoustic properties of any speaker/system and I would be able to explain them in laymans terms.

Also Infinity has some interesting claims about their CMMD when it comes to the frequencies at which they distort. Which makes me wonder if other peoples cones are up to par. Obviously the real world results are not as cut and dry. What are your thoughts?


Cone Material | Frequency of First Cone-Bending Mode (Hz)

Polypropylene | 1500

Kevlar® |1920

Paper |2160

Titanium |7440

Aluminum | 6700

Ceramic |10800

Ceramic Metal Matrix |10190
Diaphragm (C.M.M.D.)

Link to pdf
 

taterworks

Member
Dec 7, 2003
102
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Danger: Really Technical Stuff ahead

I got my experience through about 5 years of being a part of several online communities. One is the DiySubwoofers.org community (where I started long ago) where I gained rudimentary knowledge of speaker design theory. However, this place is sort of unsophisticated and caters largely to the car audio enthusiast. In the spring or fall of 2001 I think that is where the equations for designing the 8th-order bandpass were posted. The 8th-order bandpass is still a patented technology so whatever you build you can't sell. The 8th-order bandpass is somewhat related to the 6th-order bandpass which is closely related to the 4th-order bandpass enclosures. The 4th-order bandpass is basically a speaker in a sealed box (second order system) with a second-order acoustical filter which is made up of another air volume on the other side of the woofer cone. That second volume is ported to the outside, and it behaves as a "bandpass" filter, passing a narrow band of frequencies to the outside. For non-critical applications, these can often be used without a crossover becasue the second chamber keeps most of the high frequencies from passing out. The bandpass filter has an upper and lower limit of its "band" of frequencies (the "passband"), with the lower limit being below the bottom of the woofer's useful frequency response and the upper limit being set generally somewhere between 50 and 250 Hz for subwoofer applications, though upper limit frequencies should generally set below 150 to prevent localization of the source (The Bose Acoustimass has its upper level set at 200 Hz). The 4th-order bandpass enclosure can be designed to add localized gain (increased output "loudness" at the center of its passband) to the output by operating over a narrower range but this is also at the expence of transient response and "musicality", and as a result these that have lots of gain tend to deliver "one note" bass. This is because when you look at the frequency response graph of such a subwoofer, it looks like a taller and narrower peak with the more gain you build in. The 6th-order bandpass subwoofer was developed by Bose but Bose's patent has expired and Mackie uses this design in one of their earlier model Active subwoofers. The 6th-Order Bandpass basically has the woofer mounted between two of these acoustic filters, designed to add lots of gain and with their passband centers placed close enough together that the two peaks combine into a somewhat smoother response. The bass ports also add bass reflex loading to the woofer, I think. Anyway, the bottom line is that you get lots of gain across a larger frequency range than you could with a 4th-order designed for gain, but still with the side effect of lowered transient response and "musicality". This was used by Bose as the first Acoustimass subwoofer. The problem with the 6th-order bandpass subwoofer was that the woofer would begin to unload and go through wild excursions at frequencies below the enclosure's passband, so subsonic filters were necessary. Bose found that by adding a third chamber onto the front, tuned to the resonant frequency of the woofer or thereabouts, it was possible to get even bigger output while exerting tighter control over the travel of the woofer cone at the further expense of transient response. When examining the plexiglass Acoustimass module that Bose used for a long time in their stores as demonstration, one would notice that the woofer cones hopped at large transients but while producing a sustained low frequency tone, the cones are practically standing still. This is because all of the high output at these frequencies is as a result of the air in the third and largest port, the port to the outside, interacting with the air in the ports that connect the main big chamber to the second and third chambers. The woofers can practically stand still. I don't think you can simply add a chamber tuned to the woofer's resonance frequency to a 6th-order bandpass subwoofer that you might design using public-domain equations and wind up with an 8th-order system, but that is basically the way the 8th-order system works. Also, as I said before, using big woofers with unsuitable elecromechanical parameters is a recipe for bad news, with simulations often predicting refrigerator-sized boxes. And that is bandpass theory in a nutshell. The other really big speaker online community in my life is DiyAudio.com and their excellent forums, where there are some smart people there. For discussion of products, I recommend the Home Theater Forum (hometheaterforum.com) where people there are very knowledgeable in both commercially-available products and do-it-yourself (DIY) projects. The Adire Audio Tumult was developed with input from DIY enthusiasts from this forum, and as a result, the Tumult is probably the world's best home theater subwoofer driver. Two of them demolish a sub using 4 high-excursion 12" woofers. That's what I call displacement. Also, the "Tech Talk" message board operated by Parts Express (partsexpress.com) has lots of experience aroung there, and the speaker discussion forum at Madisound Speaker Components (madisound.com) has a lot of real high end discussion. Another one I know of that is slightly less DIY oriented and much more high-end oriented is AudioCircle.Com which is basically a site that is just a messageboard, just like the Home Theater Forum. Go there and find some cool discussions about audio technology and audio equipment.
 

jdurg

Senior member
Jun 13, 2001
215
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I fully concur that Bose speakers suck major wangage. :p My parents picked up a Bose system (who's name I can't remember) about five years ago. They bought it because they had never heard any real speaker system before, and the Bose name was plastered all over everything at the store. (Well duh, it was a Bose outlet store). At the time, I knew squat about speaker systems as well so I really couldn't help. With the system set up it sounds alright, certainly much better than television speakers, but it does sound "empty." There isn't a lot of punch to the sound, and it sounds like everything is coming out muffled. There is definitely something crappy.

About four years ago I went away for my sophomore year of college to a new school and decided to get myself a Dell computer to bring with me. The computer came with some Altec Lansing ADA-880 speakers. Immediately, I knew that these "cheap" speakers were much better than the Bose speakers my parents had. The ALs had massive amounts of bass, and a much clearer high end. However, it wasn't a true 5.1 system and there was still something "missing." (Plus the speaker cables were incredibly short. There was no way to even come close to setting it up as a "surround sound" system).

Finally, about two years ago I went and purchased a new speaker system for my computer. I was looking for something that would primarily be used for movies, and music and gaming would be secondary. I also wanted something with long cables, and a relatively small "floorspace." I eventually came upon the Midiland S4-8200 speaker set. (Which I updated last year with their newer receiver which decodes DTS). Thes speakers are perfect for me. They are a true 5.1 surround sound system with a receiver with optical, and two coaxial, inputs as well as a remote control. The speakers attach to the subwoofer, which uses a special cable to attach to the receiver, via standard speaker wire. So if the wires shipped with the system aren't long enough, you can just go out and buy longer ones dirt cheap. I LOVE these speakers. They are incredible for what I need, and only have a few drawbacks.

The first drawback is that music just seems a bit "lacking." I don't know if it's because of some flaw with the speakers, or if the speakers are actually good enough to show flaws in my .mp3s, but something is missing. Maybe I was just being overloaded with bass in my ADA-880s and weren't really hearing the "true" songs? The second drawback is a lack of analog 5.1 connections. The receiver will only accept a digital coaxial or optical connection, or a 4.1 analog connection. So you really can't get a 5.1 connection on the analog cables. That's not really too much of a concern since I'm not really into major gaming. (Also, if there is ever a soundcard which can code Dolby Digital on the fly, then this will no longer be a concern).

I guess what I'm wondering is what the experts here think of these speakers? Midiland. I only paid a total of 300 dollars for them including my upgrade to the newest receiver. (I got a GREAT deal with some discounts when I initially bought the system). I'm just curious as to where my speakers stand. All I ever hear are ravings about Logitech and Klipsch speakers, but to me, they are way too "bassy." It seems as if they are trying to hide some inherent flaw by overpowering the listener with bass. (Kind of like what poor DTS tracks do. A poorly put together DTS track will try and overpower everything with high bass in order to "fool" the listener. I guess they figure the DTS name will make people forget?) Thanks.
 

taterworks

Member
Dec 7, 2003
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As far as the Klipsch being too "bassy" - they have subwoofer control knobs on all their Promedia models.

I don't have any experience with the Midilands. The older models don't look very awe-inspiring, though. The thing is, you are probably hearing the peaky response from the thin plastic cabinets of the satellites vibrating along with the transducer cone. That tends to impart a sort of hollow sound to the music. Also, I doubt that those little cubes are flat to 70 Hz.There is probably a bigger dip than that in there. That subwoofer probably isn't going very deep or with any sort of authority. You want the sound of a true high-fidelity speaker set. One company that makes REALLY good computer speakers (probably much better than Klipsch and Logitech) is Swan Speakers, sold exclusively through the internet retailer TheAudioInsider.com. They make good computer speakers, and I'm sure you could find some awesome stuff there. Or, go the route of building a little home theater setup for your computer, and you can even watch DVDs and connect a TV and 5-disc changer and tape teck and game console, etc.. when you are justifying the little bit larger amount of mney you may be spending, think of it as a home theater system and not a computer speaker system, because it really is a home theater system with your computer hooked up.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
4,201
3
81
I just googled celestion f10 and some people say the high end is kind of twangy or something ...that its too sharp. How do you respond Tater?

Also, what do you think of the infinity's and the rti38s

I know that both are double or more the price of celestions (rti38 polks are 250 a pair) are they worth it?
 

jdurg

Senior member
Jun 13, 2001
215
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0
Originally posted by: taterworks
As far as the Klipsch being too "bassy" - they have subwoofer control knobs on all their Promedia models.

I don't have any experience with the Midilands. The older models don't look very awe-inspiring, though. The thing is, you are probably hearing the peaky response from the thin plastic cabinets of the satellites vibrating along with the transducer cone. That tends to impart a sort of hollow sound to the music. Also, I doubt that those little cubes are flat to 70 Hz.There is probably a bigger dip than that in there. That subwoofer probably isn't going very deep or with any sort of authority. You want the sound of a true high-fidelity speaker set. One company that makes REALLY good computer speakers (probably much better than Klipsch and Logitech) is Swan Speakers, sold exclusively through the internet retailer TheAudioInsider.com. They make good computer speakers, and I'm sure you could find some awesome stuff there. Or, go the route of building a little home theater setup for your computer, and you can even watch DVDs and connect a TV and 5-disc changer and tape teck and game console, etc.. when you are justifying the little bit larger amount of mney you may be spending, think of it as a home theater system and not a computer speaker system, because it really is a home theater system with your computer hooked up.


Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, not many people have heard of Midiland and I tend to get a "Who the hell are they?" response when I tell people about my speakers. In the future, I plan on going all out and getting a full home-theater setup with much larger/powerful speakers and a true receiver. However, with my current salary I can't even afford my own place let alone a home theater. So for now, my current setup suits me fine. Later on in life I really plan on going all out with a "sky's the limit" budget and pick me up something that will last for quite a few years and provide a lot of high quality sound.
:D:beer:
 

wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
881
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76
Thanks you taterworks for your information. Seriously, you have been a great help and I will be ever thankfull.
 

taterworks

Member
Dec 7, 2003
102
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First of all, you have to keep in mind the F10 bookshelf is not a very expensive speaker. I selected the F10 because it is within budget, and you can put together a three-piece speaker system with reciever for less than $400. There is cheaper out there, but I imagine it is also a lot worse. KLH and Sony do not make great speakers (Sony has some exceptions), but it all depends on what price bracket you are looking to spend within. If you have the extra money, I would actually recommend looking elsewhere. The second thing is, people who review audio are always going to have something to say about a certain model of speakers, unless you want to be paying $80,000 for them like some of the Wilson Audio models. But since you are looking for better, Klipsch has some very interesting hi-fi options that use their Tractrix horn tweeter for high output with a flat frequency response. The Synergy SB-1 bookshelves, weighing in at $250 or so for the pair, have a 5.25" woofer and a microtractrix tweeter with a semi-dome element. They delivered a remarkably spacious yet precise stereo image. Bose tries to get this by angling drivers all over the room, but the results from that are imprecise and exaggerated. The highs from the Synergies were clear. They were somewhat forward, but in a very good sort of way. A lot of people have had good success with Cambridge Soundworks. You might know them best for their very decent computer speaker systems, some of which are sold by Creative. The Cambridge Soundworks Newton M50 bookshelf speaker costs only about $195 for the pair, but you get a wooden cabinet with smooth, woodgrain finish, a 5.25" woofer, and a silk-dome tweeter powered by a neodymium magnet assembly. CSW's hi-fi offerings are very often well-reviewed. I seem to remember the Newton M50 being one of these models. Taking a look at another online retailer, Aperion Audio, we see that their similarly-equipped Intimus 522D bookshelf speaker costs $370 for the pair. However, the drivers in them are of very high quality, and they also have recieved very high reviews. Now I will be taking a look at the Crutchfield web site. One speaker that looks very much your speed is the Infinity Primus 140. It has a 4" woofer and 3/4" tweeter, and you might like it a lot paired up with a more expensive sub, the Sony SA-WX700. That one has two long-excursion 10" drivers, and it gets some decent reviews from people who use it. It is $300. That's $500 for the speakers+sub and $200 for the reciever. That's $700 total. By this point we are more expensive than the Bose system this thread started talking about, but we are also much better as well. Perhaps this is one of the Bose models that they knew they couldn't overprice because they wouldn't sell any. I guess you could get the Bose if you really want to. It would certainly impress your friends, as they seem to be a status symbol.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
4,201
3
81
nah i have already decided against the bose, now my price range has grown...about 400-600 bucks I think would be reasonable for now.
 

mbackof

Senior member
Sep 10, 2003
382
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If you have to go with satellites and a sub, the HSU Ventriloquist comes highly recommended. It has a larger center channel that is wired so it shares the mid-range driver with the front left/right speakers. This prevents a hole in the sound. they go for $250 direct from www.hsuresearch.com and they are also available through www.compusa.com. The sub is extra, and they have a VTF-2 for $350, which comes highly recommended.
My brother just bought Boston Acoustics SYS8000B system as part of a package deal with a Yamaha receiver and DVD player from Tweeter. It sounds really good with powerful bass.
 

taterworks

Member
Dec 7, 2003
102
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In that case, we can go bigger for the speakers. Speakers that are $400 for the pair are not outside our range anymore. For 600, with the Yamaha reciever, you can get the Wharfedale Diamonds and a $200 sub like the Sony SA-WM500 with a 12" woofer in a bass-reflex cabinet. This is quite a nice setup. The Wharfedale Diamond series is their real high-fidelity line. I'm sure you will be impressed with the sound you get from these. When you get the Sony sub, get some polyfill material and add some of it to the inside, attaching it with hot glue from a hot glue gun. This sub's predecessor, the SA-WM40, had good benefits from this simple modification. I have a friend with that sub and it was loud with 120 watts. This adds an extra 30 watts. It is a little boomy, but the addition of the polyfill material helps to tighten the sound up quite a bit.
 

wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
881
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76
Hey that sony sub Sony SA-WX700 isn't $300, the first price I found was $188
looky here

also
Search on mysimon.com

the Sony SA-WM500 is $134 - $199
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
4,201
3
81
I cant even find wharfdale's homepage much less a site that sells or stocks a variety of them.

edit:check that, i see amazon has the 7.2 diamonds for 130.
 

Varun

Golden Member
Aug 18, 2002
1,161
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Wow some great responses in this thread.

Got a question about the speakers I have in my modest home theater. I bought some Nuance Star ones, Star Sats, and a Star Cen about 7 or 8 years ago. The price of these speakers was enough for me at the time, and I have always enjoyed the sound. The customer service and warranty is pretty good too at 10 years. Just this year a voice coil let go and I was able to take that speaker in and get a new one, no questions asked (or bill asked for)

Have any of you audiophiles heard of the Nuance brand? I know they are not the world's best speakers, but I think they are a good midrange brand. I'd like to hear some thoughts on them since nobody I know has these speakers other than me.

p.s. www.nuanceaudio.com is their mediocre website
 

taterworks

Member
Dec 7, 2003
102
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Nuance is a scam brand. They won't even show pictures of their products on their website, and they follow the formula of a similar scam that's run within the U.S. borders: the dreaded White Van speakers. The business model: two guys drive up to you in a white van and ask you if you want a sweet deal on a set of speakers or some such. They quote them as originally costing some exorbitant amount like $3000 and offer to let you have them at a seemingly huge discount (say, $1000) when the speakers themselves use second-rate drivers, practically no crossover network, and a thin cabinet. Sometimes they put speaker drivers in there that aren't even connected, just for looks! Nuance is similar. They are sold at some of the more seedy electronics retialers in Canada (I heard the name International Stereo in conversations about these), and the salesmen are very pushy. They will pull you in, play a heavily-doctored test disc at high sound levels, and then when your hair is blown backwards by the boomy, disproportionate bass and harsh, sibilant treble, they say that they usually sell them for something like $4000 but they will offer you a special deal that's "just for you" (because you're such a nice guy) and then if you turn them down, suddenly you're not their friend anymore, and many customers have described situations in which the salesmen made them feel very unwelcome in the store after such an experience. Stay away from Nuance at all costs. Three canadian brands you can't really go wrong with are Energy, Mirage, and Athena. Nuance is crap on the same order (and possibly worse) than Bose. At least Bose has some clever engineering for their sonic tricks. Just ask at any home theater website and they will tell you to stay away from Nuance speakers. At least, that's the way they do business today. How much did you pay for yours? Perhaps you got had and didn't know it.

Here is an excerpt from their website:

Experience the Difference. Ask for a Demonstration.

If you haven't experienced a Nuance Demonstration, it's an event you'll long remember. Here's what to expect. You'll be escorted into a soundroom to hear music in a new way. That's right. You'll hear commonplace activities in a way that will convince you you're in a far different place. You'll wonder how it's done. It's called SpatialSound? Technology. And, it's from Nuance.
(TW: This is in reference to the special doctored test disc. In this case, they get you away from the rest of the speaker models so you can't demo them by listening to one and then the other and hearing the huge difference in sound. They play this doctored test disc at levels that have been described as insanely loud and the "commonplace actions" include the famous "wood chopping" where you can "hear the wood chips falling".)

Here's how it works.
When we listen to music in a room, less than 10% of what we hear comes originally from the speakers, while over 90% is delayed and emanates from the surrounding furniture, ceiling, floor and walls. Our designs take this into account by producing sound in a pattern of acoustic distribution that has similar sonic signatures throughout the listening area.
(TW: This is dangerously close to what Bose speakers claim to be doing when they are reflecting sound off the back walls. At least Bose is actually doing as advertised with the angled drivers that fire every which-way. The Nuance speakers are just ordinary speakers with a digitally-doctored source.)


While this sounds simple, the execution is a little more complex. And the results are pure magic. You'll experience a sense of realism unlike anything you've heard before. Nuance SpatialSound? Technology redefines the stereo experience.
And if you're considering buying speakers for home theatre applications, every Nuance series features a full complement of models necessary-from powered subwoofers to satellites, center channels to front monitors-to produce the most exciting home theatre system for every budget.
(TW: Every budget, as long as your budget happens to be "paying too much". There is no "execution", just mediocre components and cabinets, turned up loud, and again with a doctored test disc that uses psychoacoustics to make you think you're hearing something you're not.)

With all the money you pay, I should HOPE they replaced the drivers for you! Sory if I have offended, but dishonest business practices make me very annoyed. There are some very nice Canadian manufacturers of speakers, but Nuance is not one of them. Quest isn't, either (I don't think).