From Bose to....Bookshelves?

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
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These things are listed as being awesome for console gaming.

I use onboard soundcard on my P4C800. How would I connect these speaks to my onboard soundcard?
 

taterworks

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Dec 7, 2003
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Bose speakers are really not all they are cracked up to be. This isn't just by distinguished golden-ear "audiophile" standards but by nearly any standards. Bose spends tremendous amounts on new, flashy marketing campaigns and deceptive sales tactics, like jacking up the price in order to create the image of an "elite" product. In the "bass module" (they can't call it a subwoofer becasue it does not extend below 46 Hz) the construction is thin particleboard (not nice, solid MDF) and the bass drivers are 5.25" with short excursion, stamped frames, untreated paper cones, and foam surrounds that dry-rot away after 8-10 years or so. It is crossed over to a pair of cheaply-made satellite speakers at 200Hz which is way too high. In the speakers, which are the same as the 3-2-1 speakers, the speakers do not extend above 13kHz (minimum for "high-fidelity" is 20kHz), and the Bose signal processing screws with the tonal balance. You do not get the right balance of sounds, and sonic fidelity is trampled. They might respond better in the lower midrange than the Acoustimass cubes do (Acoustimass systems have a measured -10dB frequency "hole" between 280 and 200 Hz; every 3dB represents a doubling in loudness, for reference) but with the design fads and cheap audio tricks Bose has become known for, it is hard for me to have much trust in them. You would be happier just going with a 5-channel Klipsch ProMedia suround system (which is probably one of the best surround systems out there). The Bose Freestyle is probably an OK system by computer speaker standards, but you really pay the full home-theater price, which it is honestly not worth.

I will also say something about the apparent bass output you may have heard from your friends' Bose systems (and this is where it gets really technical): In order to extract that bass sound out of the two 5.25" woofers most of their bass modules have (some have three), they use an enclosure type called the Series-Tuned 8th-Order Bandpass. (This excludes the new Acoustimass and Lifestyle systems, which appear to use Decoupled Antiresonant Line designs, or they might just be "make the air volume really small and then stuff a really long port in there folded over a couple times so it looks to our consumers like we made it have the technology of the wave radio".) The 8th-Order Bandpass uses three chambers. The woofer(s) are mounted on a partition between the two rearmost chambers. Each of the two rearward chambers are ported to the frontmost chamber, which is ported to the outside. This enclosure design, patented by Bose, results in amazing output and smoothness of tone over the frequency range, but the side effect is that bass notes (especially during complicated bass passages in the music) sound "boomy" and indistinct. The 8th-order bandpass can only be used with small 4", 5.25", and 6" woofers. Larger woofers cause the designer to wind up with an enclosure the size of a refrigerator. Becasue of this woofer size limitation, the small woofers don't have that much deep bass output, and that is why many owners of these bass modules complain about lack of deep bass extension.

If a Bose system were given to me, I would keep it and probably listen on it occasionally. But I would not go out and spend my money on one. I bought a Cambridge Soundworks "Ensemble" mini-satellite/bass-module system that does everything the Bose does (and a few things it doesn't) for $50 on eBay. My main sound system (including associated source and amplification gear) cost me about $600 total, less than the cost of the Acoustimass 6. The difference is that mine has 450 watts of amplification, a true 10" 150-watt subwoofer extending all the way down to 25 Hz, main speakers that evenly cover the range from 50 to 20,000 Hz without intermodulation distortion associated with single-way speakers, a DVD player, and a 5-CD changer. It makes me happy.

Just for the sake of asking, who listed them as "excellent"? The Bose website?

To be fair, many intelligent people I know also used to think Bose was good. This simply comes from the fact that most people don't shop for speakers like they would shop for a TV or a dishwasher or a central A/C unit or a car. They don't do lots of research. They ask their friends. This is the marketing model that makes it easy for a marketing scheme (scam?) like Bose's to work well. If Bose can convice some people that Bose is awesome, the attitude will soon catch on with the general public. I imagine that there is actual engineering that goes on at Bose, but I am at a major engineering university, and many engineers who were oohing and aahing at the stuff Bose had at their booth for a job fair at the beginning of the semester were of the same crowd that I would expect to respond similarly to Bose marketing. In my opinion, they should not be working for a speaker company because I still feel they don't truly know what good sound is. One of them listens through an Aiwa mini-system, and in the case of another, the best speakers they currently own are in their late-model Honda Accord. Very decent for a stock system, but still limited in fidelity.

Also to be fair, some of the best-sounding midrange drivers in the world are made of paper. However, the world's highest-performance home theater subwoofer, the 15" Adire Audio "Tumult", uses a blend of paper fibers and Kevlar for its cone, not just paper alone. And paper tweeters do not have the proper pistonic qualities at high frequencies to put out quality, detailed highs.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
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So what would you recommend for someone in a dorm room that doesnt have a lot of space but enjoys music, movies, and console gaming. What setup could do this? Price me out something good, you sound like an expert :)
 

RollWave

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May 20, 2003
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space. I have nowhere to mount back speakers. I want a sub and two really good front satellites
 

taterworks

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Dec 7, 2003
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Depends on what you want to spend. I think that you are looking for the real high fidelity sound. Let's assume you were willing to spend the same amount you would have spent on the Freestyles. The price of the Freestyles is $400. I will look at two options. One is a speaker system designed especially for your computer. Another is a high fidelity system, with a reciever, two speakers, and a powered sub. I myself am in a dorm.

On the computer speaker end of things, we have two real options.

For $400, at BestBuy.com, we see the Klipsch ProMedia Ultra 5.1 system. This is probably the best you can find that is especially for your computer. You are going from two speakers to five, but you are getting the true surround effect. You also get a lot more subwoofer for your money. Two 8" woofers. That pretty much has every othe computer speaker system beat. The midbasses in the main speakers are decent. I think they are either paper or polypropylene, and they sound quite decent. You get true extension out to 20kHz, and low frequency extension down to about 30-35 Hz, which is deep when it comes to computer subs.

Todd Stovall of Gamers Depot wrote, "This one will blow your mind."

If we look at sound systems, we will first look at the Home Theater In A Box category.

Sony sells the only one in your price range that's really worth looking into. The Sony HTC800DP has 5 satellites, a reciever with built-in 5-disc DVD changer, and an 8" subwoofer. You like DVD movies, and you can plug your console into this. The speakers will actually probably give better sound than the Bose ones but you might decide to upgrade them at some point to something slightly nicer. Only the front left and right channel are any priority for upgrading, though, and you can find some nice Sony bookshelves at Best Buy. Or go on Best Buy.com and order the Celestion bookshelves that have the 4.5" woofer and tweeter. They will give some serious nice sound. Celestion is awesome. You just don't hear much about them because they are from the U.K. but they make some nice stuff. The real kicker in this deal is the 5-disc changer, and the 8" sub. You will enjoy some nice sound. It definitely brings the party. I have a friend with the olde version of the Sony 8" sub and it has some surprising capability. It goes deeper than the Acoustimass modules, that's for sure. It also has more power. The powered Acoustimass modules have only about 50 watts of power.

Panasonic has one that is the SCHT800V. It has 5 satellites, a reciever with single-tray progressive scan DVD player and VHS tape player, but the subwoofer is somewhat awe-uninspiring. I cannot see how they can fit a proper air volume in that slim thing but i imagine it works somehow. Anyway, there's an alternative.

For a 5-channel system that costs the same as the Bose but blows it away for surround use, look at the following:
Yamaha HT-5630 5.1 reciever - This reciever is so cheap it's a wonder I don't upgrade. It is a Yamaha, and Yamaha kicks butt. $188.
Wharfedale Moviestar 60+ package - $199: Small satellites, a decent subwoofer. Wharfedale is a high-fidelity maker that generally caters to the upper end of customers. You will enjoy nice music fidelity from this one.
Both these things can be found on BestBuy.com.
The only caveat is that this does not include a DVD player but if you already have one, hook it up to this and you will like it. The Wharfedales have 3" full-range drivers, but they claim response up to 20kHz. It is likely that the Moviestars, being from a true high-fidelity maker like Wharfedale, will have the proper considerations made in their full-range driver design.
 

taterworks

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I just read your post about wanting two really good front satellites. Get the Yamaha reciever I mentioned before and then pair it up with the Celestion F-series (F10DA) two-way bookshelves that have the 4" woofer and dome tweeter ($95 for pair), and the 8" Yamaha YST-SW215 ($119) , all from BestBuy.com (they only have the Celestions on their website). You will be glad. It is hard to find good stereo recievers these days for cheap. Then by the time you get a place with space for rear satellites, you can add the rear satellites and center to complete the package. Just make sure to set the reciever up in Stereo mode instead of one of the common surround sound formats like DTS or ProLogic II so that it doesn't try sending any sounds to speakers that are not there. This package will be either $400 or slightly (as much as $30 but no more) over. You get 30-20,000Hz frequency response, and the speakers are high quality.

The Logitechs do not have bass depth. That is something that has disappointed me about them. Their bass is loud, and there is much, and it is even relatively tight and musical but it does not go down acceptably deep.

Now, here is what I will give to the Bose: If you must have surround effects now, and may have no more than two speakers, then perhaps the FreeStyle might be an OK option. However, the system I spec'd out earlier with the Yamaha reciever and the Wharfedale speakers will give you more control with the reciever (the Bose has none) and greater sound fidelity, as well as true surround sound. And the speakers do not take up a lot of space. If your dorm is like mine where they let you have a wooden loft that suspends both beds off the floor, then you can get mounting brackets that will mount the speakers to the loft. Then the center goes on top of the TV and you are no worse than when you started. My beef with the Wharfedale set is that its sub is 6.5" and not 8" but I imagine it has true output probably all the way to between 35-40 Hz even so. You should be all right. You will definitely get more purity from your midrange and highs with the Wharfedales than the Bose.
 

RollWave

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May 20, 2003
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and the bass output will be better than the bose?

with the celestions would the base response be as good as klispch 4.1s? I have a pair of those already...
 

taterworks

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Highs and mids will be quite smooth. You need to check that these are magnetically shielded if these are going next to your computer monitor.

Yes, I think that there should be no shortage of bass. Bass quality will also be high because it is a home theater subwoofer, not just a computer subwoofer.

Keep in mind that the system with the computer speakers and subwoofer is a stereo/HT system, not just computer speakers. If you are looking for something that doesn't have to do anything more than plug into your computer and run, then the Klipsch 5.1 set is for you. If you are on the other hand looking for the ability to tune to radio stations, attach various sources like gaming consoles, televisions, VCRs, and DVD players, the stereo with the Yamaha reciever and subwoofer and Celestion speakers is the one you want.

If you decide you want stands for your bookshelf speakers, I can hook you up with those as well.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
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awesome. Also, the main reason I want new speakers is because I feel like my klipsch 4.1 sub blew out a bit, and since my walls are solid concrete I cant drill in and mount em like I had planned. In addition, I want the increased versatility of using them with a TV, PS2, DVDs or whatever, ESPECIALLY since in about 1 year I'm going to be in my own apartment.

SO another question is is there any way to utilize these satellites and not the sub?

Also, if I want to hook these klipsch that i currently have to a PS2 OR just a TV i would need a digital decoder right? Would it necessarily have to be the klipsch one?

and finally, what is the staying power of these celestions? Any reviews on them? Will they hold their value/quality over time? How did you hear of this brand?

Thanks for the help,
Raj
 

RollWave

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May 20, 2003
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also, does your dislike of bose apply to their noise cancelling headphones as well?
 

wacki

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Oct 30, 2001
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taterworks -- Trying very hard to avoid brown nosing, I cannot tell you how good it is to see someone saying the same thing I have been preaching for years. I agree with every word you said, except I would of said it a little more harshly. Bose is crap, and in my opinion one step away from an illegal con. They advertise their products as elite products, yet all the materials they use in the construction of their speakers are damn near the lowest quality materials I could think of to build a speaker out of. They use styrofoam based surrounds instead of n-butyl rubber, the use paper for the cones in the main speaker and even in the tweeter. The magnets they use are small and cheap, and I could go on and on and on. Also the fact that you recommend Yamaha is music to my ears. Wharfedale ... very good. I'm not familiar with celestion home consumer speakers, but if they are the same company that equips Marshall Amps then I have no doubt they are awesome.

As far as Klipsch goes, I will agree that they are good speakers, far better than Bose. I've only analyzed a few of their floor speakers (five years ago), and as an avid guitar player I was a little disappointed in the clarity of the subtle highs. I'm not very fond of piezo tweeters. It was good, but not as good as I like. But then again, I'm a bit anal when it comes to music. As a test track I put in Van Halen's Spanish Fly track and I try to listen for Eddy van halens fingers running over the bottom three strings of his acoustic guitar. If you've got good ears, and speakers, you can hear a very faint whirrrrrrrrr noise when his fingers move. Ask a musician about it if you don't know what i'm talking about. It is the best test for speakers I can think of, atleast for the highs. I still haven't really found a fool proof method for testing lows. Basically Tupac, Dj Jean the Launch, and the soundtrack to Glory (Snare drums are the key thing there, most speakers can't do a really tight snare drum).

rnp614 listen to taterworks, you should be glad he spent so much of his time educating you. Bose is crap, they break, and the repair shop will take forever to fix them. I know Polk audio's customer service is out of this world. They actually overnighted a replacement cone to one of my friends and guided him on replacing it over the phone. I wouldn't of believed that unless I saw that with my own eyes. I don't know if Polk is out of your price range tho. But still, don't go cheap. Buy wisely or your going to be spending more money because you will have to buy twice! Get two good speakers instead of 5 average ones, then upgrade later buy simply adding on speakers. Surround sound isn't worth crap if your speakers/amp are crap.
 

wacki

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Oct 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: rnp614
also, does your dislike of bose apply to their noise cancelling headphones as well?



Bose is crap!!!! Everything bose makes is crap.

If you want good headphones for in house use goto a music store (the kind with guitars and recording equipment) and get the big ones. I have a Beyerdynamic DT 770 it was $100-$200 but if you listen to one you would understand why I bought one as an undergrad when I had little money. If you want good noise cancelling head phones check out the new Shure earplug style headphones. They have a model that is around $70 retail. Shure makes microphones/earphones and is/was used by the Rolling Stones, Metallica, The Beatles, Jimmie Hendrix, Nirvana, Van Halen.........

Headphones go Shure, Beyerdynamic, or similar company. Those are the two names I recommend tho. They both have sub $100 phone and make far more expensive models. I think my headphones were 12th from the top of the list when I bought them! Try one out, and make sure you have regular headphones nearby to compare them to. You won't believe the difference.
 

RollWave

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May 20, 2003
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"a true 10" 150-watt subwoofer extending all the way down to 25 Hz, main speakers that evenly cover the range from 50 to 20,000 Hz without intermodulation distortion associated with single-way speakers"

Is this when the bass effectively gets behind the rest of the sound at high volume levels?
 

RollWave

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May 20, 2003
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rnp614 listen to taterworks, you should be glad he spent so much of his time educating you. Bose is crap, they break, and the repair shop will take forever to fix them. I know Polk audio's customer service is out of this world. They actually overnighted a replacement cone to one of my friends and guided him on replacing it over the phone. I wouldn't of believed that unless I saw that with my own eyes. I don't know if Polk is out of your price range tho. But still, don't go cheap. Buy wisely or your going to be spending more money because you will have to buy twice! Get two good speakers instead of 5 average ones, then upgrade later buy simply adding on speakers. Surround sound isn't worth crap if your speakers/amp are crap.


yeah I totally lucked out to have such an audio expert point me in the right direction
 

RollWave

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May 20, 2003
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as far as wasting money, yeah i think the klipsch were a little of that, but i got about 1.5 good solid years of use out of them and up until now I've been extremely satisfied with em.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
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my apologies for tiering messages like this but here comes another question.

I noticed the yamaha receiver you recommended is max 75w/channel is this low for future upgrading, or do you expect by the time its necessary the receiver may be trashable?
 

AgaBoogaBoo

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Feb 16, 2003
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Well, if space is a concern, then Bose will probably end up being a good solution. Many audiophiles agree that they have some really nice satelite speakers so Bose isn't as bad as some make it sound. If space is a limitation, then Bose is probably your direction depending on how much space can be used. Go to a store and check them out.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
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and another question comes in, I have an Ipod, would this just take an audio input cable to plug into the receiver? would it sound any good?
 

wacki

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Oct 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: rnp614
my apologies for tiering messages like this but here comes another question.

I noticed the yamaha receiver you recommended is max 75w/channel is this low for future upgrading, or do you expect by the time its necessary the receiver may be trashable?


Don't be fooled by wattage. A NAD T770 70 watt amp with burr brown DAC's was quoted as "so loud it blows womens panties off" in the movie "Italian Job". The amp is only 70 watts, but it a very clean 70 watts. That amp will be louder than any 500 watt amp you can find at bestbuy. Yamaha amps are rated similarly, they may have a lower watt rating, but they will be louder and you can push them longer.

With the Ipod, yes you can plug it into the amp. You won't get audiophile sound quality, but it will be plenty good enough for any party or listening experience.

AgaBooga, I respectfully disagree with anything you may of heard/read about Bose satellites. Without going into detail about electricty, you need to know the heavier the magnet, the better. Molybdenum magnets are known as some of the best magnets in the world. Most high end speakers use them and it's easy to tell because as soon as you pick up the satellite you realize it's very heavy. In fact M&K speakers, the speakers of choice for Lucas Arts, make satellite speakers that are 17 lbs each! The Bose 301 series BOOKSHELF (not satellite) speakers are only 11 and 12 lbs. $300 and they don't even give you good magnets. Ontop of that Bose satellites use paper cones, and are feather weight. The human ear can hear ~80-20,000 hz. Paper cones distort around 2,000 hertz, they just can't handle moving back and forth that fast. Paper just isn't that strong. Ontop of that paper degrades over time rather quickly, not to mention the cheap styrofoam based surrounds they use. I could write a paper, but I'm not.

Pick up a Polk satellite, or any other good name and compare the weights of the satellites.

If you want to read more information I recommend going here, it's good for beginners.
Infinity Tutorials

This paper, is all about cone technology and is a must read.

Ceramic Metal Matrix Cones

There is still more to learn after that, but those links will supply you with a very good base knowledge of speakers.

Infinity makes very good speakers, I just don't recommend them because of bad customer service experiences. I.E. make sure you keep your receipt if you buy infinity, they require it for warranty repair.

As far as amps go, go Yamaha, it's always a safe bet. And 70 watts per channel is enough. If you go with any other brand, you're on your own. There are plenty of other good brands, but Amp technology is far more complicated than speaker technology and it would take me forever to explain why one is better than the other. Ontop of that i'm not familiar with every amplifier out there. I know NAD and Yamaha are good, but that's about all i'm 100% on. Alot of other brands make really good high end amps, but put crap in their low end stuff. If taterworks has any recommendations for amps, I'm all ears. I'm currently looking for a good amp, and i'm curious what taterworks has to say.
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
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crutchfield has some RTi38s for sale at 250 for the pair. I wonder if thats a good price
 

wacki

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Oct 30, 2001
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Those are good speakers. Make sure you get the ones that have 1" tweeters. 3/4" tweeters won't cut it.

I have the Infinity counterparts of these speakers, and my friend has the ones your looking at. You'd be amazed at what they can do when paired with a sub. Even without a sub they will still rock your dorm room. The nice thing about those speakers is that they come with speaker mounts on the back, all you need is a screw and hang it on your wall.

I can't tell you if the price is good or not, don't know. It seems ok tho. I know circuit city carries those too.
 

wacki

Senior member
Oct 30, 2001
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Ontop of that in the future you can by floor speakers and turn those into rear satellites!

Don't forget Wharfedale and cellestion speakers that tatorworks mentioned. I've never actually seen them in real life, but I've heard many good things and I'm really interested. So if you get those, or know somebody that buys one of those brands, let me know what you think of them. I'm very curious.

Polk is a safe bet. I don't like the way their subs sound, but their speakers are great, and I would be proud to own a pair of them. As far as who is better Wharfedale or Polk or Cellestion, I don't know. But I would love to get a chance to compare them.

Check these places out to find good prices:
http://www.mysimon.com/
www.bestwebbuys.com

Also check this out

Wharfedale

Their diamond 8 series has my interest very peaked. I like the yellow cones.

"Genuine hi-fidelity for under $200 a pair. With KEVLAR drivers, neodymium magnets, gold-plated bi-wire terminals, hand built quality and a sound to die for, it's no wonder the Diamond 8 series is still the nation's favourite"
 

RollWave

Diamond Member
May 20, 2003
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yeah i havent narrowed down the brand AT ALL yet. plus i still have to offload the 4.1s