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Freedom of Speech in Europe?

E

envy me

Golden Member
Link

All the discussion about freedom of speech in Europe. Pretty biased and one sided. People complaining about the muslim riots and justifying it with freedom of speech, while this man, who's opinion, however farfetched gets a 3 year prison term.

The creators of the muslim cartoons should have the same treatment.

1 mans opinion vs a defamation of an entire religion??

which one is worse? does it matter?

The point is, freedom of speech only exists to protect those that the higher-ups choose to have protected.

... And while personally I am not familiar with this man's opinions/preachings, with all the concern/paranoia of denying what happened during WW2, putting people away just seems to give the impression that they are trying to silence people.

The truth needs no laws to support it.

 
Originally posted by: alchemize
So in other words, you want less free speech.
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No.. in other words, I want laws to apply to people the same way.

How many people have been imprisoned for denying the vietnam war, the crusades, the inquisition, the khmer rouge campaign, the vietnam war?

none.

But for some reason the hollocaust gets special treatment. That is racist and makes me think that they want this man and his ideas suppressed (for whatever reason).

And it will make others ask Why? What did he write about? What was so offensive in his writings?

 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: envy me

No.. in other words, I want laws to apply to people the same way.
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There is always limits to freedom. You can't expect laws to apply to every situation.
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Well if someone gets a three year term for denying something that had happened almost half a century ago, and an editor gets nothing for insulting the head of a major religion, then there is clearly some sort of bias going on.

 
Originally posted by: envy me
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: envy me

No.. in other words, I want laws to apply to people the same way.
Click to expand...

There is always limits to freedom. You can't expect laws to apply to every situation.
Click to expand...

Well if someone gets a three year term for denying something that had happened almost half a century ago, and an editor gets nothing for insulting the head of a major religion, then there is clearly some sort of bias going on.
Click to expand...

I would think that religious blasphemy isn't going to be something illegal nowadays in generally civilized societies, especially when done in satire.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: envy me
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: envy me

No.. in other words, I want laws to apply to people the same way.
Click to expand...

There is always limits to freedom. You can't expect laws to apply to every situation.
Click to expand...

Well if someone gets a three year term for denying something that had happened almost half a century ago, and an editor gets nothing for insulting the head of a major religion, then there is clearly some sort of bias going on.
Click to expand...

I would think that religious blasphemy isn't going to be something illegal nowadays in generally civilized societies, especially when done in satire.
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Yet denying something that happened years ago gets a prison term? WHY? What was this mans crime?

saying that 6 million people didn't die?

Thats not a crime.

It sounds like someone NEVER wants us to forget about the magical 6 million.

 
Originally posted by: envy me

Yet denying something that happened years ago gets a prison term? WHY? What was this mans crime?

saying that 6 million people didn't die?

Thats not a crime.
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The man's crime is holocaust denial. I think that law is strange, but many European countries have laws against holocaust denial.

It sounds like someone NEVER wants us to forget about the magical 6 million.
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The WW2 holocaust consisted of more than 6 million people. The Armenian genocide is also protected against denial in some European countries.
 

Its still free speech. You can't deny somebody from beleiving something? Or is it beleiving something and preaching your beleif? Sounds a little primative.

I should be able to deny/acknowledge anything I please, no matter how much of an idiot it makes me.

Why don't we invade and spread our democracy around and let all the hollocaust deniers have the freedom they deserve 😀
 
Originally posted by: envy me

Its still free speech. You can't deny somebody from beleiving something? Or is it beleiving something and preaching your beleif? Sounds a little primative.

I should be able to deny/acknowledge anything I please, no matter how much of an idiot it makes me.
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You should be able to within certain restrictions (holocaust denial not being one of them IMO).

Why don't we invade and spread our democracy around and let all the hollocaust deniers have the freedom they deserve 😀
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Don't worry, the US will probably be invading Europe during WW3 to stop the upcoming genocide.

Is holocaust denial even illegal in Denmark?
 
Originally posted by: envy me
Originally posted by: alchemize
So in other words, you want less free speech.
Click to expand...

No.. in other words, I want laws to apply to people the same way.

How many people have been imprisoned for denying the vietnam war, the crusades, the inquisition, the khmer rouge campaign, the vietnam war?

none.

But for some reason the hollocaust gets special treatment. That is racist and makes me think that they want this man and his ideas suppressed (for whatever reason).

And it will make others ask Why? What did he write about? What was so offensive in his writings?
Click to expand...


Uff... again?

It's not a matter of "give the same treatment" it's a matter of laws. In some European countries a law exists since WWII against Holocaust denial. Many scholars (think of Renzo De Felice) have questioned about the numbers, the knowledge common people at the time had of what was happening, the speed of the process etc etc, and nothing bad happened to them. You just can't claim the right to be a University professor and teach a class the Holocaust never happened. And if you ask me it's 100% right. You can, and some did, teach it happened but you actually justify it.
It's not about having an opinion, it's about using your position to affect the knowledge and beliefs of other people who could not have the cultural instruments to protect themselves from those lies.

Besides, this guy will not go to jail. He will just spend 6 months confines in his apartment (which he bought using the money generated by a book full of lies) and then pay a fine, apologize and never enter a university room again. In the austrian litigation process (like in many Franco-German law tradition systems) what you get sentenced to in first grade doesn't really mean a lot. If you get less than 5 years and it's your first felony you will never go to jail. If it's not a violent crime, you are VERY unlikely to spend a single day in jail.

There is no law against portraing prophet Mohammed in any EU country constitution. That's why you can do it.

There is no law against denial of the Khmer massacre, or the Inquisition trials or the Stalin purges. That's because there was no need of such a law in post WWII Europe. In my opinion anybody who holds a teaching position should face a trial if spreading claims and theories he has no proofs about. It's not freedom of speech, it's effecting many people education and beliefs. The Holocaus got a special treatment because it happened in Europe right before those constitutions were written.

The IS a law protecting every minority against hate speech. Portrain prophet Mohammed is not hate speech.

Actually in many ways freedom of speech is MORE wide in Europe than in the US, expecially about works of Art. Ask yourself why so many european movies are 20 minutes shorter in their US distribution. Sex scenes get cut, along with scenes considered "disturbing for common morality". Talk to somebody who works in the movie industry and he will tell you what they need to cope with in order to avoid ultra restrictive ratings on their movies. Same happens in the advertising industry. Have a walk in paris and you will see 90% of the Ads having partial or total nudity. In New York you don't see any.
 
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Is holocaust denial even illegal in Denmark?
Click to expand...

LOL, I just assumed they were, but according to this site, I don't think so??

Tony Blair?s government considered introducing a ?Holocaust denial? statute in Britain, but eventually rejected the idea. Italy, Ireland, Norway, Denmark and Sweden are among the other European countries that have declined to enact such laws.
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'Holocaust Denial' Laws are Disgraceful
 
Originally posted by: envy me
Link

All the discussion about freedom of speech in Europe. Pretty biased and one sided. People complaining about the muslim riots and justifying it with freedom of speech, while this man, who's opinion, however farfetched gets a 3 year prison term.

The creators of the muslim cartoons should have the same treatment.

1 mans opinion vs a defamation of an entire religion??

which one is worse? does it matter?

The point is, freedom of speech only exists to protect those that the higher-ups choose to have protected.

... And while personally I am not familiar with this man's opinions/preachings, with all the concern/paranoia of denying what happened during WW2, putting people away just seems to give the impression that they are trying to silence people.

The truth needs no laws to support it.
Click to expand...
Are you not tired of starting thread after thread about the same thing? It must be especially fun for you, since you're comparing apples to oranges.
 
I don't agree with the denial law. However, I think this guy wasn't thrown in jail for breaking that specific law so much for being a total dumbass and for displaying contempt for Austrian law in general. He went to Austria basically as grandstanding stunt and paid the price. His performance in court was craven. The judge decided not to allow his court to be turned into a circus and rendered his verdict accordingly. We'll see how the appeals go. I suspect that the jerk will spend a few months in jail while the appeals proceed and then will get tossed back to England with a "no-return" order.
 
Originally posted by: Tango

Actually in many ways freedom of speech is MORE wide in Europe than in the US, expecially about works of Art. Ask yourself why so many european movies are 20 minutes shorter in their US distribution. Sex scenes get cut, along with scenes considered "disturbing for common morality". Talk to somebody who works in the movie industry and he will tell you what they need to cope with in order to avoid ultra restrictive ratings on their movies. Same happens in the advertising industry. Have a walk in paris and you will see 90% of the Ads having partial or total nudity. In New York you don't see any.
Click to expand...

I am in complete disagreement. Many films have been banned in Europe. What you are talking about is a voluntary film rating imposed by the movie industry itself - it is not controlled by the government like in Europe where films are routinely banned for ridiculous reasons. Movie ratings in the US are not an issue of freedom of speech. Banned movies in Europe are an issue of freedom of speech. The list of banned movies in Europe is large. A movie would only be banned in the US if it had something like child pornography or some other legal complication. Many films have bans based on content in several European countries.

Not only are movies routinely banned in Europe, but now artists are threatended with death (Theo Van Gogh, Mohammed cartoons, etc.). But that's not a freedom of speech issue with the government until they ban it.

Hate speech, holocaust denial, banned films, etc. are all big restrictions on freedom of speech in various European countries. It is utterly ridiculous to claim that freedom of speech is more wide in Europe when the government has imposed so many restrictions. In some countries insulting the monarch is illegal, too.
 
Originally posted by: Meuge
Originally posted by: envy me
Link

All the discussion about freedom of speech in Europe. Pretty biased and one sided. People complaining about the muslim riots and justifying it with freedom of speech, while this man, who's opinion, however farfetched gets a 3 year prison term.

The creators of the muslim cartoons should have the same treatment.

1 mans opinion vs a defamation of an entire religion??

which one is worse? does it matter?

The point is, freedom of speech only exists to protect those that the higher-ups choose to have protected.

... And while personally I am not familiar with this man's opinions/preachings, with all the concern/paranoia of denying what happened during WW2, putting people away just seems to give the impression that they are trying to silence people.

The truth needs no laws to support it.
Click to expand...
Are you not tired of starting thread after thread about the same thing? It must be especially fun for you, since you're comparing apples to oranges.
Click to expand...

No.. aren't you tired of crapping on every one of my threads and not contributing anything worthwhile?

 
Austria is trying to show it is tough on Holocaust denial because a significant number of Nazi leaders, including Adolf Hitler, came from Austria, and Jews and other critics have accused the country of glossing over its past for decades after the war
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News

So it's a law in Austria to punish people who don't accept the Holocaust. In this case, he can't use the "freedom of speech" for his defense. Just because it's a law. US has a law that similiar to this that is a person can not make a direct threat to the president or anyoneone and say that "it's my freedom of speech" defense whenever it happend.
 
Originally posted by: envy me
Link

All the discussion about freedom of speech in Europe. Pretty biased and one sided. People complaining about the muslim riots and justifying it with freedom of speech, while this man, who's opinion, however farfetched gets a 3 year prison term.

The creators of the muslim cartoons should have the same treatment.

1 mans opinion vs a defamation of an entire religion??

which one is worse? does it matter?

The point is, freedom of speech only exists to protect those that the higher-ups choose to have protected.

... And while personally I am not familiar with this man's opinions/preachings, with all the concern/paranoia of denying what happened during WW2, putting people away just seems to give the impression that they are trying to silence people.

The truth needs no laws to support it.
Click to expand...

Europe has a lot of guilt over the holocaust. Special treatment and consideration for Jews is unjustified. OMG, the last sentence was anti-semetic. Imprison me right now! :roll:
 
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
'Holocaust Denial' Laws are Disgraceful
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Some people may be offended by those who play down Jewish death and suffering during World War II. But free and open societies protect even offensive speech. That?s why western countries defend the right of their citizens, for example, to praise Communism or promote atheism.

?Holocaust denial? laws violate ancient and universal standards of justice. They criminalize even factual or truthful statements that ?play down? or ?whitewash? the Holocaust. They are selective and one-sided. In countries where they are on the books, the Holocaust is the only chapter of history that cannot be freely discussed. They inhibit historical inquiry and restrict free speech. They are a disgrace, and should be repealed.
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QFT.
 
Agreed that holocaust denial laws are bad, but why one must continue to make threads when the subject has been thoroughly explained and debated repeatedly has yet to be answered......

edit: I'll take back my words on "has yet to be answered." The "Jewish conspiracy" has been hinted at already.
 
Originally posted by: screech
Agreed that holocaust denial laws are bad, but why one must continue to make threads when the subject has been thoroughly explained and debated repeatedly has yet to be answered......

edit: I'll take back my words on "has yet to be answered." The "Jewish conspiracy" has been hinted at already.
Click to expand...

Doesn't that applies to the cartoon posts which are being posted repeatedly?
 
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