Freedom in Israel

[jman19]

Between these two quotes, I think the topic is well-summarized. In fact, I'm a bit surprised that Israel didn't execute someone for treason in leaking nuclear secrets.

Usually I don't agree with you or that hack FNE, but in this case I do. A country's military secrets should not be available for all to know.

 

[ebaycj]

They are actually a very effective deterrent when you keep some fog around it. No one has to know the exact number, capabilities or means for delivery.

They are actually more effective when people know the capabilities and means for delivery. Assuming your capabilities and means for delivery aren't sub-par.

The only reason to keep the knowledge of capabilities and means for delivery secret is to suppress the fact that they are not up to snuff.

 

[ebaycj]

The simple act of leaking classified information is not an act of treason and there have been many cases throughout history where the leaking of classified information was the only moral choice to make. Simply put, governments frequently abuse the classification system to cover up information that they find inconvenient. So no, we shouldn't be executing all people who leak classified information, many of those who do so are patriots. (those who leaked Bush's illegal warrantless wiretapping program were patriots for example)

That being said, to expect governments not to take action against those who divulge classified information is silly, as soon as you do that your system has no value.

This.

 

[K1052]

I'd certainly expect a very lengthy and probably uncomfortable stay at Club Fed if I worked at say Los Alamos and I wandered a nuke production line snapping candids and sent them on to the press.

He knew what he was doing and the likely consequences. Israel doesn't exactly have a habit of forgetting stuff.

 

[fallout man]

I'd certainly expect a very lengthy and probably uncomfortable stay at Club Fed if I worked at say Los Alamos and I wandered a nuke production line snapping candids and sent them on to the press.

He knew what he was doing and the likely consequences. Israel doesn't exactly have a habit of forgetting stuff.

Except that all he did was point out that Israel is scamming the world community by hiding their nuclear energy and weapons programs.

Say, I think that there's another nation nearby who... is actually a signatory to a treaty that legally allows them nuclear energy research capability under supervision. They've even allowed inspectors to check their shit out, yet there's a whole lot of baaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwing about how they shouldn't be allowed to do what they're legally allowed to do by the exact same folks who are egregiously breaking the rules and spitting in the face of the world community while doing it.

I guess that the chosen people are judged by a different book of international agreements and regulations, because they haven't been asked to disprove their peaceful or weaponized nuclear programs, despite being in breach of international law.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Except that all he did was point out that Israel is scamming the world community by hiding their nuclear energy and weapons programs.

Say, I think that there's another nation nearby who... is actually a signatory to a treaty that legally allows them nuclear energy research capability under supervision. They've even allowed inspectors to check their shit out, yet there's a whole lot of baaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwing about how they shouldn't be allowed to do what they're legally allowed to do by the exact same folks who are egregiously breaking the rules and spitting in the face of the world community while doing it.

I guess that the chosen people are judged by a different book of international agreements and regulations, because they haven't been asked to disprove their peaceful or weaponized nuclear programs, despite being in breach of international law.

You know, I don't recall the IAEA being particularly satisfied that they are complying with the terms of the treaty. I guess they must be another Republican shill.

 

[fallout man]

You know, I don't recall the IAEA being particularly satisfied that they are complying with the terms of the treaty. I guess they must be another Republican shill.

Yeah, dawg. I'm not going to try and venture beyond my expertise here, but the Iranian nuclear weapon witch-hunt has been such a comedy of errors that I don't even know where to begin.

They were fully compliant up until what year, now? Suddenly a treaty signatory (Iran) has to tally up the pieces of TP they used to wipe their ass, as the US and the UN scrutinize their every move while blatantly ignoring clear violations and illegalities of non-proliferation on the part of an angry close neighbor. Israel's nukes are just as illegal, by international law, as North Korean nukes. Why am I not seeing anyone on AT P&N wetting themselves about a rogue non-signatory to any international nuclear arms treaties owning nuclear weapons...

Don't bother answering, since the only Hasbara-worthy reply is that "Well, they're a beacon of democracy in the Middle East and they can clearly restrain themselves." Right, tell that to the orphans in Gaza.

Fuck you guys.

I guess Iran should just go ahead and back out of the treaty they signed in good will. This way they can thumb their big Iranian nose at the rest of the world while they do whatever the fuck they want with their uranium centrifuges, and it'll be perfectly "legal" and "alright" by the same standards the apologists here like to apply to the Israeli nuclear energy and arms program.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Right, tell that to the orphans in Gaza.

As is your usual SOp you have nothing legitimate to say other than some stoopid reference to orphans that has nothing to do with this topic...

 

[K1052]

Except that all he did was point out that Israel is scamming the world community by hiding their nuclear energy and weapons programs.

Say, I think that there's another nation nearby who... is actually a signatory to a treaty that legally allows them nuclear energy research capability under supervision. They've even allowed inspectors to check their shit out, yet there's a whole lot of baaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwing about how they shouldn't be allowed to do what they're legally allowed to do by the exact same folks who are egregiously breaking the rules and spitting in the face of the world community while doing it.

I guess that the chosen people are judged by a different book of international agreements and regulations, because they haven't been asked to disprove their peaceful or weaponized nuclear programs, despite being in breach of international law.

Israel is not a signatory to the NPT. They are under no obligation to disclose information on their program. Iran is, if they want to change that they can always withdraw.

Iran is most definitely building the bomb. I question the intelligence of people who claim otherwise. Iran will of course not use it on Israel no matter what kind of rhetoric comes out of Tehran. The mullahs aren't by any means stupid enough to get every city in the middle east reduced to a nuclear cinder.

 

[fallout man]

Israel is not a signatory to the NPT. They are under no obligation to disclose information on their program. Iran is, if they want to change that they can always withdraw.

I guess Iran should just go ahead and back out of the treaty they signed in good will. This way they can thumb their big Iranian nose at the rest of the world while they do whatever the fuck they want with their uranium centrifuges, and it'll be perfectly "legal" and "alright" by the same standards the apologists here like to apply to the Israeli nuclear energy and arms program.

I guess if Iran backs out of the treaty and Israel (being the cool-headed and collected beacon of democracy that they are) bombs Iran because of it, turds like you will be first in line here to offer justifications for "the righteous act of defending the homeland."

 

[fskimospy]

Ok, so they execute their own for perfectly rational reasons. That wouldn't make them crazy, but just evil. The Holocaust never happened, and that's completely rational right?

Let's take another government. When the Nazis came to power they didn't go to war. They weren't kind to their own people, especially the Jews, but hey that was in Germany.

Years later that changed. Why? Because there was a fundamental shift in philosophy? No, because when they came to control Germany they hadn't the means to do squat. After they had the ability to do harm they went for it.

If Iran didn't want to start trouble that's great. If they did, they wouldn't. Why? Because they'd get their asses kicked. Sucks for them. Put nukes in their hands and everything changes. Does that automatically mean they'll use them? Not at all, but you haven't show that the leaders now in control are particularly trustworthy.

You mention that people aren't states. Neither are government leaders. They are now maintaining power at the cost of a constant letting of their own citizens blood.

While that may not mean anything to you in this context it does for me. A government that shows that it will use it's full power for evil needs less not more of it.

Nothing in your post is really related to the likelihood of Iran using nuclear weapons. They might engage in conventional warfare like Nazi Germany, and having nukes would make it more likely for them to engage in this. This is one of the reasons why I think that Iran having nuclear capability weakens the US position and should therefore be opposed.

As for how 'trustworthy' their leaders are, who cares? Nothing in any of my posts is related to how 'trustworthy' Iran's leadership is. The reason they would not use nuclear weapons isn't because they promised not to, it's the fact that they would face national obliteration. The only reason Iran would be willing to risk national obliteration is if they were A.) Already confronted with it through armed invasion or B.) because they are crazy. Neither one of these is likely.

You can oppose Iran having nukes all you want, there's a very good strategic reason to do so. To think that Iran is crazy and is going to use them once they get them is simply poor reasoning however. They aren't nuts at all, they are every bit as sane as US leaders are. Sure they are brutal dictators, but I see no evidence that brutal dictators are any more excited about being atomized than elected presidents.

 

[fallout man]

As is your usual SOp you have nothing legitimate to say other than some stoopid reference to orphans that has nothing to do with this topic...

ok cool!

 

[Ozoned]

Nothing in your post is really related to the likelihood of Iran using nuclear weapons. They might engage in conventional warfare like Nazi Germany, and having nukes would make it more likely for them to engage in this. This is one of the reasons why I think that Iran having nuclear capability weakens the US position and should therefore be opposed.

As for how 'trustworthy' their leaders are, who cares? Nothing in any of my posts is related to how 'trustworthy' Iran's leadership is. The reason they would not use nuclear weapons isn't because they promised not to, it's the fact that they would face national obliteration. The only reason Iran would be willing to risk national obliteration is if they were A.) Already confronted with it through armed invasion or B.) because they are crazy. Neither one of these is likely.

You can oppose Iran having nukes all you want, there's a very good strategic reason to do so. To think that Iran is crazy and is going to use them once they get them is simply poor reasoning however. They aren't nuts at all, they are every bit as sane as US leaders are. Sure they are brutal dictators, but I see no evidence that brutal dictators are any more excited about being atomized than elected presidents.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is spending untold Iranian millions to educate and prepare the muslim world for the appearance of the Mahdi, the 12th Inman.

If he is doing this only to control people, then you are correct.
If he actually believes, then you are incorrect.

 

[K1052]

I guess if Iran backs out of the treaty and Israel (being the cool-headed and collected beacon of democracy that they are) bombs Iran because of it, turds like you will be first in line here to offer justifications for "the righteous act of defending the homeland."

Israel's capably to take out Iran's enrichment program is pretty limited because of distance and that they're housed in hardened facilities, which while not impenetrable make the task that much more difficult (probably close to impossible.).

However if they were somehow able to do it I doubt any of Iran's neighbors would be shedding a lot of tears over their setback.

 

[K1052]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is spending untold Iranian millions to educate and prepare the muslim world for the appearance of the Mahdi, the 12th Inman.

If he is doing this only to control people, then you are correct.
If he actually believes, then you are incorrect.

Ahmadinejad is a domestic mouthpiece for their conservatives and he wields no power over international affairs or the nuclear program.

 

[Sclamoz]

Israel's capably to take out Iran's enrichment program is pretty limited because of distance and that they're housed in hardened facilities, which while not impenetrable make the task that much more difficult (probably close to impossible.).

However if they were somehow able to do it I doubt any of Iran's neighbors would be shedding a lot of tears over their setback.

I imagine there would be problems in Iraq because of the large Shiite population and in Lebanon as well I'm sure due to the Hezbollah connection. Another potential problem is Iran closing the gulf and stopping oil shipments.

I agree though it's impossible for Israel to stop Iran's nuclear program military. Israel doesn't even have heavy bombers as far as I know.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is spending untold Iranian millions to educate and prepare the muslim world for the appearance of the Mahdi, the 12th Inman.

If he is doing this only to control people, then you are correct.
If he actually believes, then you are incorrect.

How much money gets wasted in the US teaching people fairytales about the end times and the second coming and not taxing the religious organizations that do?

Bush had a similar idea about the end of the world I'm sure since he was an evangelical.

 

[fskimospy]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is spending untold Iranian millions to educate and prepare the muslim world for the appearance of the Mahdi, the 12th Inman.

If he is doing this only to control people, then you are correct.
If he actually believes, then you are incorrect.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not in charge of Iran, he does not make foreign policy decisions, and he most certainly does not control their nuclear posture.

We focus on him because he is convenient and nutty, and that serves the interest of those people who are attempting to fool you into thinking Iran is nuts. We are frequently told that the governments that oppose us are headed by insane people, and it's simply not true. (Saddam wasn't nuts, and neither is Kim Jong Il)