france has been no friend to muslims

[norseamd]

Once again, a violent jihadi terrorist attack has hit France, this time with at least 450 victims, 129 of them fatal. Rallying around the French flag, even pasting it over our Facebook avatars, follows, because an attack on European soil somehow “exports” the war in the Middle East to our front doors. We remember and mourn Berlin, Madrid, London, and New York. But deaths at the hands of terrorists in Beirut on Nov. 12 (43 dead; 200 wounded), or Baghdad the day after (26 dead; 46 wounded); Dhaka on Oct. 24 (1 dead; 104 wounded); or in Ankara on Oct. 10 (95 dead; 246 wounded) have not brought the same outpouring of grief and flag-draping. Even the killing of 224 passengers on a commercial Russian passenger plane, brought down by a terrorist bomb over the Sinai Peninsula, pale by comparison to the outpouring of emotion following the attacks in Paris.

The war against terrorists, especially the Islamic State — reputed sponsor of all those non-European attacks — has “come home,” we say. In reaction, French politicians, like former President Nicolas Sarkozy, demand “total war.” Republican presidential candidates thump the tub to escalate a ground war in Syria.

There’s something fundamentally disturbing, even dangerous, about the responses to terrorist violence in Europe and America, especially the French response. As we scramble to deal with the latest outrage, we need to keep in mind that this war was never far away or distant, certainly not from France. The outrage, shock, and grief needs to be tempered by a realization that our selective attention about the violence is rooted in denial. It ignores the long history of conflict, empire, religious war, colonial intrusion, disrespect, racism, and invasion that has characterized the relationship between France and the Muslim world. If we fail to come to terms with fundamental historical realities, we are condemned to repeat the cycle of violence for years to come.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/17/france-has-been-no-friend-to-muslims/

 

[Atreus21]

I read the entire thing.

France is not to blame for this. Period. I get tired of this rationalization.

Responsibility lies with the immediate aggressor, and no one else.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Something doesn't jive.

The Right tells me Europe is opening her arms and allowing murderous swarms of Muslims in by the millions who are taking advantage of freedom, liberty and social programs.

Now, France supposedly pissed off Muslims who live there?

Well, which is it?

 

[sm625]

I read the entire thing.

France is not to blame for this. Period. I get tired of this rationalization.

Responsibility lies with the immediate aggressor, and no one else.

Good to know. Continue bombing parents in front of their children and then wondering why those children grow up to be so damn upset. I cant wait until technology advances to the point where people can focus their rage onto exactly the targets that deserve it. When that day comes, it is these people who "are tired of this rationalization" that will bear the brunt of their own frickin stupidity, instead of it being thrusted randomly onto the public. It's not rationalization, its cold hard reality. You kill someone's parents right in front of them and they are going to spent the rest of their lives trying to figure out a way to come after you in any way they can.

 

[Atreus21]

Good to know. Continue bombing parents in front of their children and then wondering why those children grow up to be so damn upset.

Right, because war is just that simple. I keep forgetting that the world is replete with Japanese terrorists who're the grandchildren of Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims.

 

[Indus]

The point needs to be made, that of the Muslim bombers who killed himself, there was 1 who had a family in Belgium and they are a respectable immigrant family of parents, 3 sons who led normal lives except 1 who engaged in petty crime, went in and out of jails and then went on to be a suicide bomber.

How did that 1 son turn out to be different when the rest of his family is fine?

30 years ago there was not much of a problem. After manufacturing in Europe went overseas, there was a budget shortfall and taxes went up. As a result unemployment went sky high. You might think it's 10-12% now.. reality is, it's close to 50% for minorities.

Now with that much unemployment and people being desperate, it leads to petty crime. Police catch the criminals and put them in jail. But in jail people are not getting rehabilitated and taught how to be useful members of society. Instead they're getting indoctrinated by twisted Muslim ideology who think they can show compassion and then weaponize the person for their own ideals.

I don't think this war can be won by bombing in Syria. It needs to be won by giving people jobs so they are not turning to crime or worse in desperation and looking for a reward in the afterlife rather than a reward in this life.

 

[Newell Steamer]

How did that 1 son turn out to be different when the rest of his family is fine?

Or, how does one son represent 1.6 billion people?

 

[waggy]

I gotta say norse just made a case on why they should seal up the boarders and shut down all refuge camps and send them back. they have no reason to continue. history has spoken.

 

[Indus]

I gotta say norse just made a case on why they should seal up the boarders and shut down all refuge camps and send them back. they have no reason to continue. history has spoken.

What do you propose to the ones who have American citizenship already?

What about the families who were given refugee status 10 years back, 20 years back, 30 years back, 40 years back, 70 years back?

Would you send them all back too?

It's much easier to say stop taking more refugees, but to uproot and deport people who have integrated into the fabric of American society is cruel and unusual punishment. Last I checked that was against the constitution.

The 8th Amendment:

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

So what is your thought on the matter? Is it time to do away with the constitution all together?

 

[blastingcap]

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/17/france-has-been-no-friend-to-muslims/

Remember this: non-"correct sect" Muslims and non-Muslims are treated like shit in most majority-Muslim countries. If Muslims want to be treated better, then they can start by being less assholish towards their scant non-correct-sect-of-Muslim populations. Why scant? Because the Muslims murdered, exiled, and heavily discriminated against everyone else so much that most people simply leave.

Until Muslims clean up their acts in their own countries, they can STFU about anti-Muslim discrimination. Muslims in France can EMIGRATE if they want, nobody is keeping them there.

I dare you to Google search for how Muslims not of the "correct" sect are treated in Muslim-majority countries. Look up discrimination against Shia in places like Saudi Arabia. Look at how Ahmadiyya are treated in Indonesia. Etc.

Then look at how non-Muslims are treated. Look up whether you can even OWN A BIBLE in Saudi Arabia, let alone read it in public.

Look up how even supposedly secular moderate Turkey has a history of persecuting non-Muslims all the way up to the present day where they murdered a priest. Better yet, ask your Armenian friends.

Which pales to how atheists are treated. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim

No, don't respond to this post. I want you to search for and read the countless articles already written about this first.

 

[norseamd]

Well, which is it?

France has been doing it for decades by now. Sarkozy was the president before Holland was, and he is a right wing douchebag who is friends with Putin and Berlusconi. Americans tend to think all the French are left wing wine and baguette connoisseurs, but there has been a notable far right wing and/or Catholic faction in France for centuries now.

5 years ago France was waging a high attention war not on Muslims, although they have been marginalizing Muslims probably for some time now, but instead on Roma. Also they have been callously exploiting West Africa for centuries by now, with many countries in the area bound by treaties violating their sovereignty to always keep half of their foreign reserves under the control of the French government.

 

[norseamd]

Remember this: non-"correct sect" Muslims and non-Muslims are treated like shit in most majority-Muslim countries. If Muslims want to be treated better, then they can start by being less assholish towards their scant Muslim populations. Why scant? Because the Muslims murdered, exiled, and heavily discriminated against everyone else so much that most people simply leave.

Until Muslims clean up their acts in their own countries, they can STFU about anti-Muslim discrimination. Muslims in France can EMIGRATE if they want, nobody is keeping them there.

I dare you to Google search for how Muslims not of the "correct" sect are treated in Muslim-majority countries. Look up discrimination against Shia in places like Saudi Arabia. Look at how Ahmadiyya are treated in Indonesia. Etc.

Then look at how non-Muslims are treated. Look up whether you can even OWN A BIBLE in Saudi Arabia, let alone read it in public.

Look up how even supposedly secular moderate Turkey has a history of persecuting non-Muslims all the way up to the present day where they murdered a priest. Better yet, ask your Armenian friends.

Which pales to how atheists are treated. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim

No, don't respond to this post. I want you to search for and read the countless articles already written about this first.

Or those who lay the fault, responsibility, and punishments of governments on those who have no relations to said governments other than being born into a similar culture or religion, often fleeing those very same governments because of human rights abuses, can STFU if they dont like others not scapegoating individuals with no relation or say in the matter, and the governments who promote liberty, equality, and justice, and if they dont like it they can emigrate, like some have done to Russia.

 

[norseamd]

Right, because war is just that simple. I keep forgetting that the world is replete with Japanese terrorists who're the grandchildren of Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims.

There are some Japanese terrorists. What if they traveled to America and started terrorism here? Should we put a ban on all Japanese visitors and immigrants? And also there are strong tensions between some Japanese and Americans. Not exactly Yamato, but Okinawans are not exactly fond of American presence on their islands.

Yes I know they are different circumstances with notably different levels of severity, but just because something is such in one instance, does not mean it is not true in another instance. Believe that is known as false cause. Attacking or bombing another culture can and does create feelings for justice, resentment, and revenge.

 

[Ackmed]

Afghans Buy Fake Death Threat Letters To Sneak Into Europe Under Asylum

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/23/a...sneak-into-europe-under-asylum/#ixzz3sLWdyaqV

Just let all refugees in, no problems!

 

[blastingcap]

Or those who lay the fault, responsibility, and punishments of governments on those who have no relations to said governments other than being born into a similar culture or religion, often fleeing those very same governments because of human rights abuses, can STFU if they dont like others not scapegoating individuals with no relation or say in the matter, and the governments who promote liberty, equality, and justice, and if they dont like it they can emigrate, like some have done to Russia.

No, *you* STFU. History did not start with French colonialism. Hint, Islam started in the 7th century. If you want to play the "let's go farther back in time" game then go all the way back.

At some point you need to draw the line at how far back you want to go. If it's a recent discrimination that is one thing, but to bring up French colonialism is arbitrary. Why not go back to 700 AD while you're at it?

Westerners are really, really good at feeling bad and guilty about themselves. Meanwhile much of the Islamic world did not have much pity for all the non-Muslims they drove out, killed, and forcibly converted, and they have gotten very good at guilt-tripping the former even as they continue to persecute atheists, people of other religions, and even other Muslims if they are not from the "right" sect: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/3tx26w/ahmadi_place_of_worship_set_ablaze_in_jhelum/

 

[norseamd]

How come we are not accepting his offer, especially since he seems willing to help pay for it?

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/16/news/egypt-billionaire-refugee-island/

 

[Art&Science]

Or, how does one son represent 1.6 billion people?

Because they pray to the same invisible man and read the same pornographic, degenerate writings which order them to commit horrible acts.

 

[Nebor]

How come we are not accepting his offer, especially since he seems willing to help pay for it?

http://money.cnn.com/2015/09/16/news/egypt-billionaire-refugee-island/

Because he's expecting the refugees to work to create a society, not go on social benefits. If they were willing to work hard for a society, they wouldn't have abandoned their own.

 

[Remobz]

Because he's expecting the refugees to work to create a society, not go on social benefits. If they were willing to work hard for a society, they wouldn't have abandoned their own.

Interesting indeed. They rather run away from their own Muslim Country and travel hundreds and hundreds of miles to live in a "white" Christian Country then complain about how they are treated. Some would rather sharia law be imposed in those Christian Countries if they had a choice.

Why can't Muslim Countries focus on building better societies for their own people instead of forcing their own people to migrate to the West. I am sure many Muslims would rather return home if things improved.

 

[norseamd]

Because he's expecting the refugees to work to create a society, not go on social benefits. If they were willing to work hard for a society, they wouldn't have abandoned their own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dkUzZ11kMQ

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Isn't it the case that radicalization in Islam has resulted in more women wearing the burka now than a few decades ago? There's a funny video of Nasser laughing at the prospect of forcing women into the veil from the 1950s, and I know there are photos around there showing more veiled women in University of Cairo today than several decades ago. Obviously Egypt isn't France, but I'm under the impression that it represents a general trend that started some time around the 70s. I'm totally opposed to the idea behind a burka ban, btw, I'm just saying it's only an affront to more recent fundamentalist groups.

The economic stuff is vague without a better source. The USA is full of minority groups underrepresented in employment or skilled employment, it doesn't mean that there's a conspiracy of whites and Asians working to keep blacks and Hispanics out of the good jobs. The "street confrontation" stuff is obviously bullshit, if you're going to riot and block roadways, you should fully expect a beatdown or tear gas.

EDIT: And of course, a lot of this speaks more of the failure of Western European socialism. You can't tax the shit out of everyone working and then give social benefits to a rapidly growing unemployable minority. France is a perfect example of why what works for Denmark doesn't work for everyone.

 

[blastingcap]

Isn't it the case that radicalization in Islam has resulted in more women wearing the burka now than a few decades ago? There's a funny video of Nasser laughing at the prospect of forcing women into the veil from the 1950s, and I know there are photos around there showing more veiled women in University of Cairo today than several decades ago. Obviously Egypt isn't France, but I'm under the impression that it represents a general trend that started some time around the 70s. I'm totally opposed to the idea behind a burka ban, btw, I'm just saying it's only an affront to more recent fundamentalist groups.

The economic stuff is vague without a better source. The USA is full of minority groups underrepresented in employment or skilled employment, it doesn't mean that there's a conspiracy of whites and Asians working to keep blacks and Hispanics out of the good jobs. The "street confrontation" stuff is obviously bullshit, if you're going to riot and block roadways, you should fully expect a beatdown or tear gas.

The trend towards more and more fundamentalist Muslims started much sooner than 1970s. http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37852365&postcount=37

The short story is that the Ottoman Empire spanned a lot of people and territory and as a result they tended to be a moderating force among Sunni Muslims. But after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, there was no leader of the Sunni world anymore. Eventually Saudi Arabia took up that mantle since it had vast wealth, but unfortunately the King had made an alliance with some extremely hardcore fundie Muslims (Wahhabis) and as part of that alliance he had to give them billions of petrodollars to spread their propaganda among all Sunnis worldwide. Like, building mosques and giving freebies to the locals in faraway lands. So over the years, Sunnis worldwide grew more and more Wahhabi as well. And like with many other religions, fundamentalists often have far more kids than secularists. So even if Egypt were, say, 60% secular in 1950, it doesn't take that many generations before the Islamist fundamentalist minority becomes a majority. And lo and behold, Egypt is way more religiously conservative today than 65 years ago.

Stop Sunni fundamentalists from breeding so much, and stop funding Wahhabi mosques, and you can do a lot to help fix the problem.

I advocate massive free and MANDATORY, real (not just memorizing the Quran) education for females (this tends to raise their earning power and ability to say "no" to become nothing more than babymakers), and massively increasing renewable energy to force Saudi Arabia to hurt their ability to export Wahhabism.

If you're a Sunni, I'm sorry if what I wrote was harsh, but your sect really is causing the biggest problems. Iran has gotten more conservative since the Revolution, but they haven't gone entirely insane because because they've still got a moderating force (instead of the Ottoman Caliphate, they have the religious equivalent of high priest/Pope). And the other sects of Islam are pacifist (Ibadi, Ahmadiyya).

 

[norseamd]

If you're a Sunni, I'm sorry if what I wrote was harsh, but your sect really is causing the biggest problems. You don't see this shit with the Shia because they've still got their moderating force (instead of the Ottoman Caliphate, they have the religious equivalent of high priest/Popes). And the other sects of Islam are pacifist (Ibadi, Ahmadiyya).

This can not be blamed on Sunnis, considering that Sunni Islam is covering a huge swath of Muslims. You can however find that quite a lot of the roots of Islamic fundamentalism are from Wahhabism.

Also I covered a fair amount of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in this topic here.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2406025&highlight=

 

[Nebor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dkUzZ11kMQ

Oh shit, better flee to another country that doesn't have our problems!

 

[blastingcap]

This can not be blamed on Sunnis, considering that Sunni Islam is covering a huge swath of Muslims. You can however find that quite a lot of the roots of Islamic fundamentalism are from Wahhabism.

Also I covered a fair amount of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in this topic here.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2406025&highlight=

Did you even read what I wrote? I wasn't blaming it on all Sunni Muslims. I explicitly called out Sunni fundamentalists, of which Wahhabism is part, both here and in my other posts. Want more? Have more.
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/3tk6kq/saudi_court_sentences_poet_to_death_for/
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/16/opinion/saudi-arabia-blogger-rizvi/index.html
You can find even more yourself I'm sure.

And thanks but you are late to educate yourself about Islam. http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37852365&postcount=37

Whatever you do please stop letting Muslims guilt-trip you before you know the real story. E.g., did you know the that First Crusade was in part because of the Muslim aggression and mistreatment against Christians? The deeper you dig, the more you will realize that the Islamic world loves to guilt-trip the West while concealing or denying its own, vastly greater sins. They've done such a good job of it that there are even idiotic black people who convert to Islam because they think Christianity is anti-black due to historical US slavery, not realizing how much more anti-black Islam has been. Islam: the religion much more involved with the African slave trade than any other Abrahamic religion. Islam: the official religion of Saudi Arabia (and don't you dare convert or turn atheist or we will beat the shit out of you or kill you), which only outlawed slavery in 1962, a century after the USA.

P.S. Don't mistake me for loving any of the Abrahamic religions. I'm not, and could go on for quite a while about the sins of the other Abrahamic religions. But at least the other branches of Abraham have had their Reformations (de facto or de jure). Islam has not, and if you know anything about Islamic claims about the perfection of the Quran and Mo, you know why not.